New Bolts on the third pitch of the NOSE?

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Messages 1 - 43 of total 43 in this topic
Bulldog

Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 15, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
Went up their a couple of months ago, on a solo recon, and to my suprise, I didn't to have place my red alien in that square hole, but,(no brainer) simply clip that big fat new, or two, Bolts, and be on my way -- well that didn't feel right, I knew I forgot somthing, I didn't get to place my red alien? So, prior to this recon, I remember a time before, on this same pitch, that fat stoppers were smashed into these square holes/p-tong scars, thinking to myself, It would be quite difficult to free this section, not being able to crank a 2-finger pocket torque with a passive stopper smashed to the hilt in this red aaalien placement. Just wondering if any other Nosey persons have seen anything -different- up their?
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 16, 2009 - 12:00am PT
There are 2 bolts there, near the top of p3.
Here's a photo:
Ben Emery following p3 of the Nose, 9/27/09
Ben Emery following p3 of the Nose, 9/27/09
Credit: Clint Cummins

The previous time I did it (June 2005), there was at least one bolt there also, but my photo from then is not as clear. I recall doing a harder move in 2005 there, where I had to make a yellow TCU stick in a flaring pod. So, most likely the lower bolt was added sometime between June 2005 and September 2009.

From the upper bolt, I still had to thread a sling around a fixed bashie, then make a free move out of my aider to reach bigger holds to traverse to the belay.

On p4 (9/27/09), I was equipped for some route cleanup, having been tired of the long string of tat slings on the traverse in the past. It wasn't quite so bad this time. I fixed a #1 head (no chiseling done - existing shallow flaring pin scar) to reach the first pendulum anchor (fixed nut), but I left the long cheat sling in place. I replaced the shoelace tat on the next fixed pin with a better sling. I removed a bashed nut with no cable, and fixed a Lost Arrow in its place. I wasn't able to reach the next fixed pin from there, so I left the tat sling on it, but I shortened it.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Nov 16, 2009 - 03:36am PT
yes there is a bolt there...been there a year or so
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Nov 16, 2009 - 04:24am PT
Jesus Christ!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
Nov 16, 2009 - 09:03am PT
Which one a you mullahs or puritans will be first in line to chop?

Gotta be at least one fundamentalist up to the job?

DMT
Nor Cal

Trad climber
San Mateo
Nov 16, 2009 - 09:19am PT
He will do the chopping:
Roxy

Trad climber
CA Central Coast
Nov 16, 2009 - 10:06am PT
That's funny, looks like the mysterious mullet chopper is chewing on a stick of Nag Champa. Damn hippie.
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 16, 2009 - 11:29am PT

I would be glad to chop them after I fix Surprise.

Juan
Ihateplastic

Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
Nov 16, 2009 - 11:56am PT
Two rings on that guy... does that mean he married BOTH his sisters?

So, I guess the question is... what is worse: a smashed stopper blocking a potential free move that can be done on aid with an Alien or just make the world safer for all and put in two bolts? Now the free lads can go with confidence and the aid boys can just get it done easier. Might be easier if all placements harder than A1+ (plus in this case meaning even better than A1 if that were even possible) get bolted. So much less gear to take.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Nov 16, 2009 - 12:12pm PT
bullwinkle has been flaming about chopping that bolt for a while. there was a discussion posted here between him and the bolter. i'm not gunna name names. but if you know anything about bolts on el cap then you know who placed it.

personally i'd rather see a bolt then a stopper smashed in a scar. There are many of those on the NA wall, and once the cable rusts out and breaks i don't know how you'd remove it.

bolts next to scars to free up fingerjams would be a bad precedent on El Cap, but i don't think thats what the bolter had in mind.

However when we did the Nose I used a Red/Yellow hybrid, which worked just fine...

Pate

Trad climber
Necromancer Way
Nov 16, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
IHP- that's very funny- you beat me to the punch. I can't top that one for a pure red-neck diss.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Nov 16, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
link to original thread on this:
http://supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=698472&msg=699438#msg699438

Bullwinkle:
"Why didn't you post photos of the protection bolts you've been adding to El Cap routes too? You know like the one that you added on the third pitch of the Nose? Replacing anchors is one thing, putting in protection bolts where they're not needed and never were is bs. Thank God we've you around to make thoses choices for everyone. Inner journey? try looking in the mirror and say hey to the outter Prick."

I think the reply to this comment was deleted.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 16, 2009 - 10:02pm PT
How's about a slight runout instead? Who placed the bolt, please?
john hansen

climber
Nov 16, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
Harding when someone told him the Nose had been climbed in such or such a time.

"Yeah well that wasn't the same climb we did" or something like that..

It slowly happens over the years , three feet at a time.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 17, 2009 - 02:02am PT
> Who placed the bolt, please?

According to Matt's reference, Nanook (Erik Sloan).
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 21, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
He's on the hook for some other things bolt related, so I will see what he has to say about this one once he writes me back.
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Nov 22, 2009 - 04:10am PT
That is like farting in church.

MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Nov 22, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
Steve, Do you still want the ASCA to have a power drill exemption? .Matt
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 22, 2009 - 01:59pm PT
Erik Sloan is not in ASCA (anymore).
Greg Barnes

climber
Nov 22, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
The ASCA has not supplied any bolts to Erik in years, and he gave us all his ASCA gear back (again, years ago).

When Jack & I replaced bolts on the Nose in May 2001, we worked on 42 bolts. We replaced 24 of them, and we removed the rest. So 18 fewer bolts on the Nose thanks to ASCA, and now one new bolt placed by someone with zero ASCA support.

(and that doesn't include the Negative Pinnacle routes I worked on at the same time - I replaced 5 bolts and removed 3 extra bolts at anchors)
Ben Emery

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 22, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
^^^^

Thanks, Greg. Speaking personally, I appreciate your efforts up there.
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Nov 22, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
I also really, REALLY appreciate all the ASCA bad anchor repair efforts... I'll happily volunteer next summer, If you need another hammer swinger
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 22, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
What did Erik do to bring about the split with ASCA? I need to know because he would like some assistance from me and I need some clarity about who "we" is? He has a lot of explaining to do before I offer anything because I take serious issue with some of his bolting activities.

Nanook

climber
Nov 22, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
HI Guys,

Wow, it seems like it's been so long since we had a thread like this.

Thank you for all your responses.

I'm preparing something to respond to this thread completely, so please give me a few and I look forward to talking soon.

always much love
e
Nanook

climber
Nov 23, 2009 - 10:56am PT
For years climbers have been musing about the old bolts of Yosemite.

‘how long will they last?’
‘are they still good?’
‘what should be done bout ‘em?’

Just about every opinion possible has been voiced in resolution: either in favor of removing them completely, replacing them occasionally, improving them significantly, replacing them exactly, or leaving them alone.

As best I can tell by the Yosemite climbing communities actions ‘leaving them alone’ seems like the accepted solution. Unfortunately, what people tell me they wish would happen is that the old bolts are replaced improving them significantly, rendering this issue moot for at least our generation(hahahaha).

I Heart Yosemite big walls mucho. For me there can be no distance between what I feel these precious climbs need to be preserved for future generations and my actions to help them be so.

So to try and help those that might be willing to try out a different position than ‘leave them alone’, and I honor whatever that might be, I would like to evoke a call to names of the Yosemite climbing community Fixed Anchor Posse.

but first, a little story:

Cause you see, when it comes to bolting issues in Yosemite these internet forums have been like backyard smokeouts(I mean BBQ’s:) where talk turns to your local school’s budget: Everyone chimes in to say that the girls basketball team deserves uniforms, the Art program’s gotta stay damnit, and that after-school activities should be a right not a privilege, but two weeks later when sign-ups come around for the PTA sponsored ball game or drawing class then suddenly everyone is booked. A few days later your buddy, who can tell you’re bummed about it offers, ‘hey, our basketball team always sucked anyway.’

I really appreciate the passionate energy that people use to describe their experiences on the walls of Yosemite. I’ve never been negatively affected by anyone’s opinions, because for me a person’s ethics are what we develop inside. We all meet up at the top of the mountain. Each of us holds dear our path and the celebration it entailed.

But I definitely feel that many folks who have a lot of experience climbing in Yosemite avoid fixed anchor issues because they’ve accepted some of the negativity that has been offered. And that’s too bad. If we don’t follow our heart’s because of what someone might say about us only our own light is diminished; we co-create less joy in this world.

So it’s time to talk about who really understands the fixed anchor sensitivities in Yosemite. Meaning who has taken their convictions and tested them against the reality they found when they were here, year after year. Once we establish this core group we can start having some meaningful dialogues about a.what works and what doesn’t b.what might need a little help and what is doing just fine.


Because the only thing that is required for involvement is prior involvement, we don’t need any distinguishing requirements for our crew. That said what worked twenty years ago in Yosemite(machine heads/dowels/zmac bolts on big walls as rivets, for example) So your involvement needs to be recent.

I came up with a working guideline idea of say, spending 14ish days in the park each year and placing or replacing 5-10 fixed anchors per year(could be a sling or anything fixed)/. Does that sound elitist? Just a total suggestion--you of course now how connected and passionate you are about this place and involved with these issues.

thanks
erik sloan--been climbing Yosemite big walls every year for 15years. Replace 50-200 fixed anchors each year for that last 12 years.



climber
Nov 23, 2009 - 11:01am PT
Bulldog, what is your problem with this 1 bolt? Did you know that almost half the bolts you clip on the Nose are not original?
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Nov 23, 2009 - 11:24am PT
I think his problem is that the bolt is right next to a crack that takes admittedly sketchy gear in that spot, but gear none the less.
I appreciate your efforts Eric on bolt replacement in general, but on a route as classic and revered as the Nose, adding bolts is only going to embroil you in a shitstorm.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 23, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
Erik-Nice armwaving but why did you place this particular bolt right near another one on a 5.10c free climbing pitch? Did you discuss your decision with anyone else or simply take it upon yourself to drill a NEW HOLE and change the character of the climbing on this section?
Lee Bow

Trad climber
wet island
Nov 23, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
Adding bolts to the NOSE?!?

In a perverse way, this may well be the BRAVEST climbing deed of all.
Even Jardine's traverse was off route...

If I did that not only would the have me killed, but I'm sure I would go down in history as the worst fool ever.
WBraun

climber
Nov 23, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
Even Jardine's traverse was off route...

Not so he enhanced features on the route itself.

Pendulum from sickle to dolt.
Lee Bow

Trad climber
wet island
Nov 23, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
OOPPS my bad, Sorry Werner...

I guess what I was really trying to say was despite Nanook's claim that I need some kind of Valley credentials to have an opinion I sure as hell do!
Tar and feathers sounds about right to me.

By the way...
I already know I'm a geek, but having one of the Valley God's speak to me directly is truly cool. Even if it is only to tell me I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about. Hell I live with it every day!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 23, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
Haha Nanook, you should be a politician. Your talk sounds good, but you are avoiding the issue. Maybe you're post above was just general thoughts and you'll be back to address the new bolts on the third pitch of the Nose.

My guess is the bolts were added to allow people to free climb that section easier. Without the bolt it's still easy aid, but for free climbing your piece blocks the best hold. With the bolt you clip the bolt and stick your fingers in the scar.

Of any route on El Cap the Nose is probably the one where added bolts would be accpeted by the greatest percentage of climbers. Warren wouldn't give a f*#k. It would be much worse to add bolts to the Salathe, which was a statement about how few bolts it took to climb El Cap, with only 13 originaly. I'd rather see bolts chopped off the Salathe than the Nose.

Cripes who was it that first added a bolt to the Nose? What kind of retro-bolter would rape El Cap to bring it down to his level... oh yeah, Royal Robbins...
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 23, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
Bump, because I'd rather talk about a specific example of ethics, than endless opinions on a thread about generalities of fixed anchors.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 23, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
Stand and deliver, Erik!?!
nature

climber
Tucson, AZ
Nov 23, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
With the bolt you clip the bolt and stick your fingers in the scar.

IT makes one wonder, is there a more manufactured free climb than The Nose?
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 23, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
I have been up to Sickle four times and never needed this new bolt.

What gives?

Juan
elcap-pics

climber
Crestline CA
Nov 23, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
Certainly the post makes it seem as though the bolts are a new thing... they have been around quite a while, or at least the one Erik put in... not new at all. Winky has been ragging on it for years it seems.
Juan... why didn't you chop the bolt after going by it so many times? If you didn't need it then it really must be un-necessary. ;)
pc

climber
East of Seattle
Nov 23, 2009 - 06:01pm PT
Gud thred.

skål,
pc
Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Nov 23, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
None of the ASCA bolt replacers I know want a sissy drill exemption.
Roger
Greg Barnes

climber
Nov 23, 2009 - 08:30pm PT
I do if it means we can drill 1/2" and not have to worry about them loosening up (especially on wall anchors)!

But I have to admit that lugging power drills around is no fun - I can have a lightweight replacement hand drill kit for the same size and less weight than a battery, let alone power drill and battery. We brought a couple of hand drill kits up the Epinephrine chimneys, and that would really be no fun at all with power drills...
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 23, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
Chopping bolts on the lower part of the Nose is nothing new.

Tom Frost, Yvon Chouinard and the Dolt repeated the four pitches up to Sickle Ledge in 1959 and chopped several of the original bolts because improvements in pitons including some early RURP prototypes allowed them to bypass them. It was fairly common practice if a better way could be found.

Tom chopped more bolts during his career than he placed.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Dec 14, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
Here are some photos of the fixed gear on this pitch, as of 2 days ago.
I forgot to get photos of the highest smashed hexes/blobs, though.
Nose p3 fixed gear - broken aluminum bong
Nose p3 fixed gear - broken aluminum bong
Credit: Clint Cummins
Nose p3 fixed gear - 2 bolts alongside old RURP seam
Nose p3 fixed gear - 2 bolts alongside old RURP seam
Credit: Clint Cummins
Nose p3 fixed gear - bashed nut and fixed baby angle at top of old RUR...
Nose p3 fixed gear - bashed nut and fixed baby angle at top of old RURP seam
Credit: Clint Cummins
Nose p3 fixed gear (near end of pitch) - 2 bolts (1 is fai...
Nose p3 fixed gear (near end of pitch) - 2 bolts (1 is fairly new),
big aluminum hex nut bashed into hole right of top bolt, square aluminum blob bashed into hole left/above top bolt (highest clipped gear).
Credit: Clint Cummins
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 14, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
Thanks for the pics.

Narrator: Why were bolts added to a classic climb?
(hammering sound effect)
Narrator: The world may never know!
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