A 'Surprise' bolt!

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Johannsolo

climber

Soul Cal

Oct 4, 2012 - 11:28pm PT

If I am still on this earth come Monday, those bolts will not be. I've never even seen Gdavis at Suicide, just bullshittin! at the shop. You know who I am Greg?
John Weinberg

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Oct 5, 2012 - 12:32am PT

If I am still on this earth come Monday, those bolts will not be. I've never even seen Gdavis at Suicide, just bullshittin! at the shop. You know who I am Greg?
John Weinberg

Absolutely I do. You've seen me and we've been cordial several times that we've talked. Its unfortunate you don't want to extend that same courtesy online.

I don't climb at suicide much, its quite a drive and I've been injured much this year.

I train hard, VERY hard. I work my f*#king ass off, likely more so than almost anyone posting on this thread. I am humbled only by myself, and the strongest climbers I've ever met have incidentally been the most honest, humble, well meaning people.

I'm not sure what makes you tick, John. You're a quirky guy - like me. There's a lot of us out there.

I think intent is important and I think that we need to live with the reality that I easily could have been born John Weinberg, or Apogee, or JustTheMaid. Sometimes I lose that thought and can be disrespectful online - I don't mean it, I'm just trying to make light of often unnecessarily heavy situations.

There is a Musashi quote which goes something like the Way of the warrior does not include other Ways...but if you know the Way broadly, you will see it in everything. The small struggles in climbing, those crux moves, you have to work them and you have to come to grips with weaknesses. Maybe we should do that outside the crag more often.

Peace brother.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2012 - 02:06am PT

"If I am still on this earth come Monday, those bolts will not be."

I think I understand your position, but I'd have more respect for it if you reached the same position by talking with Clark before taking action. Everyone has a right to their opinion on a matter like this, but Clark ain't no sport wankin' n00b who pulls plastic at Rockreation...he is by far the most prolific steward of Suicide & Tahquitz, and has been for decades. A direct conversation with him is certainly in order.

If/when you do go there, please do it with craftsmanship. A hack job would be most unfortunate.

justthemaid

climber

Jim Henson's Basement

Oct 5, 2012 - 08:47am PT

If/when you do go there, please do it with craftsmanship. A hack job would be most unfortunate.

I can't agree enough on this point. It's better to leave it alone if you can't remove it cleanly. I've seen a number of chop jobs lately that were a complete mess/eyesore. If you have enough energy to go chopping, you should be willing to invest the time required to restore things to original. That's my last say.

I'll let the big-boys duke it out,

Have a nice weekend everyone.

Johannsolo

climber

Soul Cal

Oct 5, 2012 - 09:35am PT

Don't y'all worry. I know how to patch it up so no one will know. This ain't my first rodeo. Clark will also be involved.

Ryans

Trad climber

Idyllwild, CA

Oct 6, 2012 - 05:57pm PT

The two bolts in question are definitely on Clam Chowder, although P1 of Surprise and Clam Chowder are almost the same. Clark has the FA on Clam Chowder and placed the bolts.

Are the bolts absolutely necessary? Probably not.

Does the FA party want them there? Yes.

Clark has done a significant amount of work and spent much of his own money improving the safety of anchors and routes all over Tahquitz and Suicide. Clark climbs at Suicide more than any other person on Earth. Shouldn't we respect his desire to have the bolts on his own climb?

I do not want bolts added to classic climbs and test pieces, ever. That being said, is the first pitch of Clam Chowder a classic climb or test piece at the grade? Absolutely not.

I say leave them be. The two bolts are not hurting anybody; you can forego the clips if you feel inclined. Let's show some respect to a man who has done so much for this area. Let's show some respect to the desire of the FA party.

I rarely see people lining up to do Surprise anyway. Why are we obsessing about this? Nobody complains about rap anchors on the Sunshine Face. Nobody complains about rap anchors on Johnny Quest. Or atop Passtime/Frustration. None of those were done by the FA party. So if we're going to discuss removing added bolts, lets talk about those before we pull bolts on a climb placed by the FA party.

henny

Social climber

The Past

Oct 6, 2012 - 11:36pm PT

The only reason the bolts were left in the first place was due to Clark having placed them on his own route, and wanting them to remain. Had it been someone else all of this would have been moot immediately. Johnny metioned that Clark would be involved, hopefully he has had his say. Their addition was a mistake, imo, particularly after so many years. If Clark has come around to the same conclusion then take them out. If he hasn't, then perhaps defer (as was done initially) to his wishes. Given the FA aspect I tend to agree with some of Ryans points.

Maybe time would be as well spent taking the retro bolt out of Pink Royd (button head without a hanger in the trough after the crux - I'm sure it is intented for use with a wire on it), or the two retro bolts out of the dihedral on the second of the Cross. The dihedral of the Cross has been led multiple times without any fixed gear. To my knowledge none of those bolts were placed by the FA party or with their approval.

Johannsolo

climber

Soul Cal

Oct 7, 2012 - 01:05am PT

Clark did not want any discussion. Said he would replace them if they were removed. Threatened to chop all the bolt anchors I have placed along with my project on Eagle pinnacle. Called me a weekend warrior. I guess they stay for now by my hand. The second one really is on Suprise though. Sad outcome for ethics. No one owns the rock, we are all just stewards.

henny

Social climber

The Past

Oct 7, 2012 - 02:25am PT

Yeap, the second one really is on Surprise. That is the biggest shame of the whole thing.

I don't think Clark does the whole internet thing much.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Oct 7, 2012 - 09:22am PT

It's not like Clark is sitting in front of a laptop flirting with the "Post Reply" button. You'd more likely get an email from Dirk Diggler.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2012 - 12:47pm PT

"Why are we obsessing about this?"

Excellent question.

can't say

Social climber

Pasadena CA

Oct 7, 2012 - 01:24pm PT

We're obsessing about this thread, you started, because Surprise allowed us noobs/gumbies to venture onto the Weeping Wall w/o having the resquite skills or ballsack needed to do any other of the routes on the WW. After I did it for the first time in 76, it helped in my building my fledgling confidence. Yes it's not that hard but the distance one is likely to slide bolsters ones resolve not to mess up.

mountainlion

Trad climber

California

Oct 7, 2012 - 06:20pm PT

I think you should apologize to Clark--Johansolo for overreacting and saying you would chop the bolts no matter what he says. Sounds like you guys know each other and will probably sit down and have a few beers. At wich time Clark should apologize to you about calling you a "weekend warrior" . Then in an non confrontational manner you should have a bolt discussion.

Just my .02 but if the conversation started out in a confrontational manner it would explain why it went the way it did.

peace Eric

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Oct 9, 2012 - 12:36am PT

Yep, bolt is on Surprise. From yesterday...:

Jean shows her displeasure at the new addition.

Hadn't climbed the route in 25 or so years... Yeah, I clipped it (ha ha), mostly for clarity in the photo (I mean its barely 5th class there).

Great route.

Noticed the other bolt on Clam Chowder's first pitch, about 15 feet off the deck on that route.

Both nice stainless bolts. Powers. Spendy little rigs.

Easy enough to pull, but, bolt wars ain't no fun. And, that fine rock wouldn't be the winner for sure.

Cooker

Mountain climber

LA, CA

Oct 9, 2012 - 02:17am PT

Call Nomad Ventures in Idyllwild if you want to talk to Clark Jacobs.
Or PM me and I'll send you his number.

Of course, how can you climb for long in Idyllwild without running into him...