A 'Surprise' bolt!

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Messages 141 - 160 of total 194 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 4, 2012 - 06:52pm PT

G-davis I thought you liked the history and had some respect for the stone


I do. I just saw a lot of people getting very worked up over a small issue.

justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 4, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
150 posts arguing about a single chip of metal. *(sigh)*

Yes it's on a classic route. NO.. it shouldn't have been put there but... it's ridiculous that this thread has been bouncing around for so long. I've lost count of how many people proclaimed they were going to chop it over the last few years that haven't done so.

Just make a f*#king decision.

2 things can happen:

1) Chop it? Fine.. quit talking about it and get out of your armchair and go chop it... do it this week. Temps look great this week for chopping. Go for it. No one is stopping you.

2) Leave it? Fine. Quit ranting that it needs to be chopped and live with it. It's a lame, unnecessary bolt. It's not the end of the climbing universe.





guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 4, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
GDavis and Maid.......

No mater how you feel, about bolts, I know both of you have huge respect for the history of our sport. Surprise is a piece of that history. It was one of the first "modern" face climbs. It broke from tradition of not climbing blank faces. It is very much like the B&Y in that the B&Y broke from the tradition of the "stance" needed for drilling.

I like history and I think protecting it is important.

If this sort of thinking... Ok to add bolts if enuf folks think it's a good idea....
continues than one day we will be fighting about the bolts added to The Edge.

That will suck

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
It looks to me that, after a three year resurrection, some of the key findings of this thread may have been lost in the most recent posts. Take note of this post from somewhere around #70:

"I spoke to Clark this past weekend and he said he added the two bolts to the first pitch of Clam Chowder (not Surprise)."

The 'Surprise' bolt was not intended for 'Surprise' at all...it's on 'Clam Chowder'. Nothing wrong with resurrecting the discussion of retrobolting routes, but howzabout some consistency in some basic facts such as the route in question...

Edit: ...and even if that bolt could be used on 'Surprise', it's in a location that provides trivial, if any, protection to that route.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 4, 2012 - 08:27pm PT
App... you are correct.

Guck

Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
Oct 4, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
Getting into the crack of White Lightning can be tricky. The start certainly needs three or four bolts to make it safe, with a nice "sports climb" feel. Another possible bolt project could be the mantle on the nutcracker, and many many more ...

It is time for some "climbers" to switch to lawn bowling, and leave the rocks as they are!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 4, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
__It's a lovely little tempest
In a lovely little teapot
Would you like to take some sugar
Or will you take some cream?__

Popcorn's free.
Who needs cable?
It is a first-time re-run, though.
If they had TV:

Merry: Hey, there was a bolt found on the Five Open Books.
Werner: Why am I not surpeised?
Merry: Yep. I've seen who climbs there...
Werner; Quatch'd you say?
Merry: I said I saw Quatch over on the Surprise several years ago.
Werner: Why am I not surprised. He's so much fun to sandbag.
Merry: Anything on the zzzzzzzzBrown thread? I'm tired as heck.
Werner: Yep. Mouse can talke your ear off. I ignore him, myself.


Going back to Suicide
I missed the first few tries
Going back to Cali Cali Cali
Going back to Taquitz Tahquitz Tockeets
With a bolt kit on my knee.

Never show up at a local crag with a bolt kit.
Word to the un-wise n00bie who just bought his very own kit.
Ask, you fool, before you drill, if there is doubt.

Even when I was the Suicidal Dilettante, clinking around the base with a rack of mostly biners of a weekend, I seemed to think "not too run-out, you can always reach over to a nearby climb and clip pro if you really need it." What, if I may I ask, the F*#k, if you'll pardon my French, is new? They fu--ing grow bolts on that apron, there.

It blows my mind to think it's quiet enough there during the week, when this probably happened, for it to be able to happen. Too many witnesses on the weekend.

BFD, really. To clip or not to clip ain't even the question. It should be, "Which route am I really on?" Or, "Is this a valid send if I clip here?"

I feel like an interloper, but the Sluice-Side crag's one of the prettiest in the Sierra Nevada, and I sorta like it best of all the So-Cal (so-cial) crags I have visited. It's always so crowded. I guess it's cuz the routes are so crowded in, like a grid-locked freeway system. Guy wandering around the base with a sign: "Will drill for food." Flip it over and it says: "Will listen to and spread any of your stories for a Double-Double."

No one expects you to clip every bolt. Sometimes you really wonder why there isn't one, too. It is a very loose game and it appeals to me more than golf, certainly, in that respect. Things tend to even out.

And then you die. Suicide, Swisside, or othercide.

justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 4, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
OK- amend that to two chips of metal. I was sort of being facetious.

Sorry- it's been two/three years now and the bolts are still there. I don't know what that means. Either the community has accepted them, or if they are unacceptable - someone needs to remove them and not spend another 2 years bitching about it online.

PS: I do respect the history BTW. :)





Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 4, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
If I am still on this earth come Monday, those bolts will not be. I've never even seen Gdavis at Suicide, just bullshittin! at the shop. You know who I am Greg?
John Weinberg
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 5, 2012 - 12:32am PT
If I am still on this earth come Monday, those bolts will not be. I've never even seen Gdavis at Suicide, just bullshittin! at the shop. You know who I am Greg?
John Weinberg


Absolutely I do. You've seen me and we've been cordial several times that we've talked. Its unfortunate you don't want to extend that same courtesy online.

I don't climb at suicide much, its quite a drive and I've been injured much this year.

I train hard, VERY hard. I work my f*#king ass off, likely more so than almost anyone posting on this thread. I am humbled only by myself, and the strongest climbers I've ever met have incidentally been the most honest, humble, well meaning people.

I'm not sure what makes you tick, John. You're a quirky guy - like me. There's a lot of us out there.

I think intent is important and I think that we need to live with the reality that I easily could have been born John Weinberg, or Apogee, or JustTheMaid. Sometimes I lose that thought and can be disrespectful online - I don't mean it, I'm just trying to make light of often unnecessarily heavy situations.

There is a Musashi quote which goes something like the Way of the warrior does not include other Ways...but if you know the Way broadly, you will see it in everything. The small struggles in climbing, those crux moves, you have to work them and you have to come to grips with weaknesses. Maybe we should do that outside the crag more often.


Peace brother.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2012 - 02:06am PT
"If I am still on this earth come Monday, those bolts will not be."

I think I understand your position, but I'd have more respect for it if you reached the same position by talking with Clark before taking action. Everyone has a right to their opinion on a matter like this, but Clark ain't no sport wankin' n00b who pulls plastic at Rockreation...he is by far the most prolific steward of Suicide & Tahquitz, and has been for decades. A direct conversation with him is certainly in order.

If/when you do go there, please do it with craftsmanship. A hack job would be most unfortunate.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 5, 2012 - 08:47am PT
If/when you do go there, please do it with craftsmanship. A hack job would be most unfortunate.


I can't agree enough on this point. It's better to leave it alone if you can't remove it cleanly. I've seen a number of chop jobs lately that were a complete mess/eyesore. If you have enough energy to go chopping, you should be willing to invest the time required to restore things to original. That's my last say.

I'll let the big-boys duke it out,

Have a nice weekend everyone.
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 5, 2012 - 09:35am PT
Don't y'all worry. I know how to patch it up so no one will know. This ain't my first rodeo. Clark will also be involved.
Ryans

Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
Oct 6, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
The two bolts in question are definitely on Clam Chowder, although P1 of Surprise and Clam Chowder are almost the same. Clark has the FA on Clam Chowder and placed the bolts.

Are the bolts absolutely necessary? Probably not.

Does the FA party want them there? Yes.

Clark has done a significant amount of work and spent much of his own money improving the safety of anchors and routes all over Tahquitz and Suicide. Clark climbs at Suicide more than any other person on Earth. Shouldn't we respect his desire to have the bolts on his own climb?

I do not want bolts added to classic climbs and test pieces, ever. That being said, is the first pitch of Clam Chowder a classic climb or test piece at the grade? Absolutely not.

I say leave them be. The two bolts are not hurting anybody; you can forego the clips if you feel inclined. Let's show some respect to a man who has done so much for this area. Let's show some respect to the desire of the FA party.

I rarely see people lining up to do Surprise anyway. Why are we obsessing about this? Nobody complains about rap anchors on the Sunshine Face. Nobody complains about rap anchors on Johnny Quest. Or atop Passtime/Frustration. None of those were done by the FA party. So if we're going to discuss removing added bolts, lets talk about those before we pull bolts on a climb placed by the FA party.
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Oct 6, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
^^^
I would have to agree, even though I have not climbed there in 35yrs,
I would say Clarks route his call.
Tad
henny

Social climber
The Past
Oct 6, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
The only reason the bolts were left in the first place was due to Clark having placed them on his own route, and wanting them to remain. Had it been someone else all of this would have been moot immediately. Johnny metioned that Clark would be involved, hopefully he has had his say. Their addition was a mistake, imo, particularly after so many years. If Clark has come around to the same conclusion then take them out. If he hasn't, then perhaps defer (as was done initially) to his wishes. Given the FA aspect I tend to agree with some of Ryans points.

Maybe time would be as well spent taking the retro bolt out of Pink Royd (button head without a hanger in the trough after the crux - I'm sure it is intented for use with a wire on it), or the two retro bolts out of the dihedral on the second of the Cross. The dihedral of the Cross has been led multiple times without any fixed gear. To my knowledge none of those bolts were placed by the FA party or with their approval.
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 7, 2012 - 01:05am PT
Clark did not want any discussion. Said he would replace them if they were removed. Threatened to chop all the bolt anchors I have placed along with my project on Eagle pinnacle. Called me a weekend warrior. I guess they stay for now by my hand. The second one really is on Suprise though. Sad outcome for ethics. No one owns the rock, we are all just stewards.
henny

Social climber
The Past
Oct 7, 2012 - 02:25am PT
Yeap, the second one really is on Surprise. That is the biggest shame of the whole thing.

I don't think Clark does the whole internet thing much.

GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 7, 2012 - 09:22am PT
It's not like Clark is sitting in front of a laptop flirting with the "Post Reply" button. You'd more likely get an email from Dirk Diggler.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
"Why are we obsessing about this?"

Excellent question.
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