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Nat
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, Utah
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 10, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
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I have been using Yates adj daisys for years. The pros are their strength. Cons are that they fuzz after a few walls and then slip. They can also be a pain to lengthen w/ one hand.
I am considering the Metolius version. They seem much easier to extend with one hand and offer affordable replacement webbing. Any feedback from personal use?
Thank you!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Aug 10, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
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I only used them for one wall, so no expert with them.
However, you'll find that they also slip. And, actually, they slip a lot worse than the Yates. You can extend the Yates when weighted. Metolius are also weaker than the Yates. I've witnessed a Metolius adj. aider break.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 10, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
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I love my Yates. I tried a metolius once and didn't like it. You can lengthen the Yates with weight on it by just pushing the cam, I don't think you can with metolius.
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PhotogEC
climber
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Aug 10, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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In my (admittedly limited) experience with the Metolius, I found that, to extend them when weighted, I had to do a little "bounce" move to un-weight them enough to release. Fine when clipped to a bolt, but not something I'd want to have to do on hooks.
My Yates just arrived on Friday....
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Aug 10, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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After you wear out the first webbing on the Yates it is worth taking 10-15 minutes to smooth over the burrs on the body of the buckle. I got a lot more life out of my second piece of webbing after using a needle file and sand paper to get the nastiest burrs off.
Also, you can greatly affect the life of the webbing and buckle by minimizing how much you pop the buckle under load.Holding the free end under tension when you hit the release, and holding the release wide open keeps from dragging the webbing across the teeth under load, entending the life of both.
Still, I want to see what Kate has come up with (did she ever post pics?). Perhaps a new option needs to get invented?
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Morgan
Trad climber
East Coast
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Aug 10, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
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I have a set of Metolius adjustable daisies. Use them mostly for photography (They are cool for that.) and old-style daisies (BD, Fish or Metolius) for climbing.
Curious about the Petzl QuickFix. It's not very strong, and you can't release it under load, but it looks as though the distance between the girth hitch loop and the carabiner end would be shorter than most others when fully tightened, which for me would be a good thing.
Easy Daisy pros and cons.
Pros:
Smooth buckle action
Compact (low-bulk)
Lightweight
Clean profile in use (which is why I like them for photography, an attribute which probably all adjustables share)
Cons (for me, when aid climbing):
Too short
Too stretchy
Not as strong as I would prefer
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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Aug 10, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Metolius - 300 lbs.
Yates - 1500 lbs
Enough said.
I'm surprised anyone even considers using a daisy that only tests to 300lbs.
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Aug 10, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
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No expert but I found with my Metolius ones that they slip slowly with my full weight and that on one of them the upper part of the buckle dosn't align with the lower part (20 - 30 degrees off) any more.
I have ordered replacements but real aid climbing gear in the UK is hard to get
good luck
Rob
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 10, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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All those new fangled adjustable jobs will slip, fuzz out and break at somewhat low loads. It's the nature of the beast. Plan on using one new one per wall, and then either replace the webbing, or get a new one. By a couple of walls, the teeth on the cam are probably gassed too and even new webbing will not keep the webbing creep from shrinking your nutsac. They are cheap.... use fresh ones whenever you can.
OMG!!!!! Here is one now!!!!11116666!!!! http://tinyurl.com/mzhkb5
Don't believe the numbers either. 300lbs is not what it will break at... zero chance.
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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Aug 10, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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Russ,
What is the working load limit for the FISH adjustable daisies?
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 10, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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WLL.... that is a good one for funny numbers. We rate ours at bodyweight + rack for WLL, when the unit is new... once you use it all bets are off ;)
Breaking strength is off the top of my head something like 2300lbs? Not sure... I'll go look it up if you really want to know.
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xtrmecat
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Aug 11, 2009 - 12:20pm PT
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I have only used and worn out two sets of Mets. I do love em, but they have their limitations, as with anything. They do not like frost/frozen webbing in the morning. Dirt/sand acts the same as ice, but was good for sphincter exercise one AM. Infinitely adjustable and can get that just right adjustment to reach out high-high-high and still get that pulled into the wall thing going. Even better now that I learned how to Tee Off via Ron's and Jeff's video.
This was something I never got just right with my old daisies. I have never used Russ's or Yates. I probably will when the next set comes due. Another question, why would someone need a daisy to hold over body weight, as in XX00 lbs?
Seems like a waste of material and unnecesary load should a daisy fall occur.
I still see no reason to dislike my Metolious units, just do not see me not trying something new next time. Also the easy daisy was very easy to handle in the dark, one handed, in mid cluster, learn how to rethread the buckle(oops once), and extend one handed easily. I have modified both sets via a German's recomendations, and not been sorry except for the impromptu rethread needed.
My two cents have a lot less mileage than many here, so what ever you think it is worth.
Bob
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 11, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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I prefer Metolius simply because it take two hands to loosen a Yates.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 11, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
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Yates Hands down. Strength counts and releasing when weighted is a big deal.
Haven't seen the Fish rigs but always appreciate supporting the Bro
Peace
Karl
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 11, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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"...and releasing when weighted is a big deal."
Yeah I love it when the Yates start releasing on their own when weighted. Makes El Cap so much more exiting.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Aug 11, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
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The Metolius do the same thing... And my experience with them was that they didn't start slipping, they started letting go! As in suddenly you were at the end of the daisy, which = dangerous, as it was basically creating a daisy fall.
Maybe they've changed since then? This was 8 or 9 years ago.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 11, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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It's easy to lengthen a Yates with one hand, but then you need to shift your grip to clip the biner in.
With the Metolius is takes a little more force to pull the webbing thru, but your hand is always holding the biner in the ready to clip position.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Aug 11, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
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Ummm... Yeah. Why would it take two hand to lengthen a Yates?
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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Aug 11, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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Russ,
Thanks for the info. 2000 lbs sounds good to me. I'll call you when my current Yates wear out.
Xtrmcat,
Seriously? You can't think of any advantages of having a daisy that has a working load of 2000 lbs vs 300 lbs?
Lambone,
I am able to lengthen my Yates with one hand.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 11, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
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Just to clarify some of the terms being used.
WLL, or Working Load Limit is the amount of weight a given widget is designed to handle with absolute safety. In industry the WLL is usually 3x or 5x depending on what county the widget comes from or how they decide to rate it. So, a daisy rated to 300lbs WLL, will probably break at 3 x 300 = 900lbs, or if they are doing the 5x thing, 1500lbs.
SWL, or Safe Working Load I believe is the same thing. You will see this stamped on the side of metal hooks (like Mussy Hooks) etc. There is also a different term for stuff used "overhead" but it escapes me. Same idea though.
Breaking Strength is the poundage it takes to bring the unit to failure, one way or another.... so the daisy I broke at 2000lbs, would have a "breaking strength" of 2000lbs (+/-) but that is in no way the WLL or the SWL.
Got it? 'cause YER GONNA DIE!!!!!!!
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 11, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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I use Yates with the following caveats:
I consider it a very disposable item and part of the expense of me doing a climb the way I prefer. A fuzzy old daisy that requires an extra 10 lbs. of force every time I adjust it isn't worth the strain.
I always have traditional daisies in the bag for the if and when the adjustable blows. I've had a brand new one start slipping on p1. Usually they live to be retired for the reason above though.
If I'm not adjusting the daisy in the name of moving faster (just about never happens), I use traditional daisies so that hopefully only my spleen or placement is destroyed if I fall.
People have taken big ugly falls with both the Metolius and the Yates, I'm pretty sure, when they fell onto them and the daisies broke.
I never got the hang of the Metolius adjusting scheme. I'm impatient with new methods though when the ones I already know are working OK for me.
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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Aug 11, 2009 - 01:59pm PT
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It would be nice to see a breaking test on a pair of all three types.
If we get some to you Russ, can you break them and post the results?
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 11, 2009 - 02:02pm PT
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Yeah.... I can break stuff or you. There is also a guy called Aric on here and on rc.com that is way into breaking stuff and has some nice equipment.
Either way.... I'll try to wake him up right now with an email and get him over here. Email sent....
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 11, 2009 - 02:07pm PT
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You can get a Fish with replacement webbing for less than the cost of Yates. Good deal.
I don't know about those 80s colors though :-).
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Aug 11, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
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I have some Yates speed stirrups that slipped.
They were not very worn, but with an older buckle style that is not as stout as the current one.
After considerable thought and experiment looking for a lighter and better set up, I've gotten this far.
They haven't been out for a real road test yet, but seem to work well. I used them without the clevis pin, and they held and adjusted well, but the webbing could twist out of position and then slip.
Have also been experimenting with adjustable daisy made from a cordalette and a Ropeman ascender, as suggested by somebody. Promising, tho a bit tricky to extend with one hand.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 11, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
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Hey all,
Russ just dropped me an email to lure me out of lurk mode... If he'd like to bow out of the testing due to possible conflict of interest issues I could certainly do it (I'm the guy over in The Lab on RC who amuses himself with this sort of thing). I'm a bit booked at the moment so not spending much time here, so just drop me an email if you need me.
-aric.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 11, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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hahaha! Conflict of interest? naw.... I can smell crap just as good as the next guy, be it mine or the other guys.
You have the cool equipment and can give the charts and graphs that are pretty neat.
Glad you came on over!
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 11, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
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Heh... Perhaps I'm a bit touchy about those sorts of things lately as I've had 3 of the manufacturers a bit grumpy with me so far this year. :-)
But yeah, my setup is pretty nice. Not without its flaws though... I still want to figure a (cheap) way to integrate a distance measurement with the force measurement as that would be much more meaningful. And lately I've been having sync problems with the video for some reason, which means I can't fold the display of the strain gage indicator into the video of the test. But the charts from the datalogger are sweet. :-)
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Aug 11, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
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"Heh... Perhaps I'm a bit touchy about those sorts of things lately as I've had 3 of the manufacturers a bit grumpy with me so far this year. :-) "
I'm pretty sure we don't really give a sh#t what the manufacturers think. I know, personally, I'd just like to know the reality, when it comes to gear. Not the warm fuzzies they try to give me with marketing.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Aug 11, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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I just got a pair of Petzl adjustable daisy... haven't used it yet.... but it looks pretty good to go!! LOL
Sorry.. not actually input to the stated question...
next
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Aug 11, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
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Try an adjustable fifi instead?
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Aug 11, 2009 - 04:40pm PT
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I have a spare Fish and a spare Yates I could donate to testing. Tell me where to send it and I'll pop them in the mail... This would be a good thing to do.
I mentioned it the other day on another site that I had gone back to using standard daises ...
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 11, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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Cool. The address is 47 Prospect Ave, Norristown, PA 19403.
Just include a note saying how you'd like them tested/fixtured. IIRC the puller has 24" of stroke on the cylinder, so keep that in mind. If you'd rather I drop a bunch of steel to it then no worries on the distance.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Aug 11, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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I'll get them in the post before the end of the week...
I'll leave up how they are tested to the "virtual fireplace." I really have no idea.
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xtrmecat
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Aug 11, 2009 - 06:13pm PT
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"Xtrmcat,
Seriously? You can't think of any advantages of having a daisy that has a working load of 2000 lbs vs 300 lbs? "
Piquaclimber, no I really see no reason whatsoever to need a daisy that will need to hold that much more weight than me, rack, ropes and drag. Any more than that would hopefully never get used, and if the daisy were stonger, would just strip out the gear I'm on and kidneys and spleen, and spine, etc. It is a daisy, I never found a need to use it for anything else like my anchor, supporting extra like the piggy, and on and on.
Am I missing something? Russ kind of answered it anyhow, just because Met rated it for three hundred pounds, I have loaded mine well over that thousands of times. I weighed in a dainty 270 for the last couple years, and never even noticed increased wear on the gear.
Bob
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roy
Social climber
New Zealand -> Santa Barbara
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Aug 11, 2009 - 08:12pm PT
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Hi,
I've used both the Metolius and the Yates. The Metolius is easier to extend while clipping, but the Yates looks beefier. At least that's what I though until I fell on one. My top piece blew as I was leaning down to clip the rope through the piece I was standing on. The lower piece was at knee level and I had maybe 6" of slack in the daisy. Pilot error, and the result ...
Yes, I still have my spleen. I didn't even feel it blow and didn't realize what had happened until I looked up. The aider was 15' above me and no longer connected to either me or the rope. Basically the teeth ripped through the webbing.
I'm intrigued by Kate's system but then I'm a sucker for new gear.
Cheers, Roy
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 11, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
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Looking for feedback....
I've sent out tons of stuff with the standard "let me know that works" when you are done request. I get like zero feedback.
so: here is the question again:
FISH/Yates style adjustable daisy chain. Some have 1" ClimbSpec webbing in them, and some have regular flat Aider style webbing in them. Which one works better, lasts longer, gets to be more fuzzy, sketch, whatever....
Anyone tried both types of webbing and can give a good account of the performance?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Aug 11, 2009 - 08:45pm PT
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Russ,
Mine originally came with the climb spec stuff (smooth tubular), which I gave good props for some time back. At the time you corrected me and said I must be wrong, you only used the thick flat stuff, and that I must be a kook.
Anyway...
My main feedback on the Fish adjustables is as follows (I've posted this all before is some form...):
1. The biner dogbone should be as short as you can get it, your are about 1-1.5" longer than Yates. There is no need to make the pocket any bigger than what is needed to rotate a locking biner though the hole. Yates also "rolls" the webbing at the biner point, which makes no difference in my experience, but looks more "professional". Yates even went from 4 tacks to 3 tacks sometime in the last few years and shortened theirs another fraction of an inch.
2. Climb spec is easier to pull through, and lasts a little longer in my experience (using one Yates and one Fish side by side). However the climb spec stuff gets sucked into the buckle and FUBAR'd easier and more often than the thick flat, which is maddening. Overall thick flat is my preferred option.
3. Your daisies are a proper length, even recent Yates ones are a bit short (and I'm only 5'9").
4. At least the girth hitch I got on my pair was massive and overkill. A girth hitch barely big enough to pass the buckle through is key in my opinion (about 3"). With the small dogbone and a small girthing loop it is pretty easy to go without a fifi. Stock Fish girth loops force the use of a fifi for second and top stepping for me on anything steep. I hate fifi's and keeping them out of my system is my favorite thing about using adjustable daisies.
5. Many folks are less color blind/indifferent than you are. I am red/blue obsessed to help tame the cluster. You could get a special niche by being more aware of this, and selling contrasting pairs, and not just whatever is at your finger tips when the order comes in. When I ordered mine I tried to be clear about getting one red, one blue plus a set of replacement webbing. I got two red ones (climb spec), and got two replacement straps that were blue (thick flat). Close, but no cigar. I cut one red strap off and put on one of the blue straps. Stoners lost my blue one and replaced it with a Yates which is how I have side by side comparisons. Those buckles finally wore out (after probably 4-5 more webbing replacements), and I replaced them both with Yates from the Mountain Shop so I could be sure to get contrasting colors (though they did not have red, bummer).
My $0.02.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Aug 11, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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I use the metolius aiders, cause I hate wasting time fidgeting with getting my foot in the loop in the wind,(It's always windy up there). But I really prefer the Yates Adj. daisy's. Both take a little practice so you don't waste energy lengthening either one and they both wear out relatively quick, but compared to the ol' shcool' aiders and daisy chains, Furgetabout it.
And the Pass from Metolius is brilliant. The fact that more climbers aren't using them( free climbing) is a confounded mystery.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 11, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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hahaha! a kook huh? naw..... It could have happened.
1. The biner dogbone should be as short as you can get it, your are about 1-1.5" longer than Yates. There is no need to make the pocket any bigger than what is needed to rotate a locking biner though the hole. Yates also "rolls" the webbing at the biner point, which makes no difference in my experience, but looks more "professional". Yates even went from 4 tacks to 3 tacks sometime in the last few years and shortened theirs another fraction of an inch.
I put like 7 or 8 tacks in there, figuring it takes a lot of wear and tear from twisting and handling. I suppose it could be made shorter with less tacks, but I sorta like having a buttload of tacks to look at to convince myself I'm safer than I actually am.
2. Climb spec is easier to pull through, and lasts a little longer in my experience (using one Yates and one Fish side by side). However the climb spec stuff gets sucked into the buckle and FUBAR'd easier and more often than the thick flat, which is maddening. Overall thick flat is my preferred option.
That is what happened to me too.... for the last few years we have only used the flat style of webbing (unless we were out or some other odd reason). Both styles seem to do quite well, but the tube webbing can get hooked on the spring and really become a mess.
3. Your daisies are a proper length, even recent Yates ones are a bit short (and I'm only 5'9").
I like them long too... same with our Super Daisy. Real long.
4. At least the girth hitch I got on my pair was massive and overkill. A girth hitch barely big enough to pass the buckle through is key in my opinion (about 3"). With the small dogbone and a small girthing loop it is pretty easy to go without a fifi. Stock Fish girth loops force the use of a fifi for second and top stepping for me on anything steep. I hate fifi's and keeping them out of my system is my favorite thing about using adjustable daisies.
We are doing an 8" loop these days, down from 10" a while back. We lob like 8 tacks into the girthing bond. Are you girthing it to your belay loop or around your leg loops and harness at the waist? With my caveman set up (Swami and leg loops) the sizing was just right.... that and I use a close-clip biner on my waist.
This would be a good one to hear about.. like how you modern harness guys set it up and what length girth loop you might think is best.
5. Many folks are less color blind/indifferent than you are. I am red/blue obsessed to help tame the cluster. You could get a special niche by being more aware of this, and selling contrasting pairs, and not just whatever is at your finger tips when the order comes in. When I ordered mine I tried to be clear about getting one red, one blue plus a set of replacement webbing. I got two red ones (climb spec), and got two replacement straps that were blue (thick flat). Close, but no cigar. I cut one red strap off and put on one of the blue straps. Stoners lost my blue one and replaced it with a Yates which is how I have side by side comparisons. Those buckles finally wore out (after probably 4-5 more webbing replacements), and I replaced them both with Yates from the Mountain Shop so I could be sure to get contrasting colors (though they did not have red, bummer).
Sadly, webbing colors come and go. When I order webbing it is by the pallet, and only do so a few times a year. So when the Blue is gone, it is gone.... sometimes for a while, as in months.
As a for instance: I have blue right now in flat and tube.... but red only in tube.... So a nice blue one could be made (we use tubular for the buckle end and flat for the body) but the red one would have to be some jacked up Miami Vice teal and red or something...
Email me your address and I'll send you stuff to "test" for all that great info above.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Aug 11, 2009 - 09:17pm PT
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Per the Master Fish " I am red/blue obsessed to help tame the cluster". This little detail is imperative for reducing the cluster F*&%^. Red is Right ....is always the same no matter how much your spinning around up their.....
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 11, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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I'm in agreement to. I think having Red is Right, blue Left, is the way. Cuts thru the confusion, and makes me feel happy.
Same reason i have redjumar and blue jumar and red speed stirrup and blue speed stirrup.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 11, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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I used to like Metolius because I was stupid.
See, the Metolius uses a D-ring rig which is impossible to loosen under tension, and is also incredibly difficult to use on traversing pitches. But the D-ring doesn't slip, even when you've used the daisy for way longer than you ever should, and it gets old and ratty and abraded and weak, but still doesn't slip. And because you're a cheap self-unemployed bastard, you don't replace it, then you take a short fall on the thing and it breaks, and because you're stupid and blow it, you fall, hit a ledge and break your leg.
Metolius has since made their adjustable daisies even weaker, and sells them with the caveat to back them up using a proper full strength traditional daisy, which is probably a good idea if your adjustable daisy is only marginally stronger than a strand of wet spaghetti.
Or you could buy a proper adjustable daisy from Fish or Yates, both of which are virtually identical, made with much beefier and stronger nylon, and have a burly Ancra buckle that you can release one-handed under load. [If you cannot release it one-handed or under load, then you are a pussy] John's adjustables used to be too short, but he has since remedied that design flaw.
John Yates tells me you can in theory get 70 pitches out of a pair of his daisies before they begin to slip and get weak, and you should retire them. [I was stupid, and didn't do this with my Metolius, and should have retired them long ago. Nylon fails when it gets old and ratty - I was just luckier than Todd Skinner]
In practice, I get two El Cap walls out of my Yates before I replace them. This is because I do a lot of big wall camping, and crawl around on my bivi belays a lot.
And here is your Dr. Piton Big Wall Tip of the Day:
Get yourself a Third Arm. Put a third adjustable daisy on your harness, and use it when you are leading hard aid and get scared [you will understand what I mean when you get into the situation, and are glad you have a Third Arm]. It's also extra redundancy for crawling around on belays if you are not tied into the end of a rope, which I sometimes do. You don't want to blow it and do a Factor 2 onto a single adjustable daisy, know what ah mean, Vern?
So don't do as I do, do as I say: retire your adjustable daisies frequently!
P.S. "Red is right" is essential in certain systems, like Russian Aiders where you can't tell which stirrup goes on which leg, cuz they look almost the same. Adjustable daisies go left to right constantly, and colour here is irrelevant [except that they be two different colours]
P.P.S. Russ - you've got my ledge for revamping, right? If you want an answer to your question above, please include one of each daisy, and I'll give 'em a go in September and let you know, eh?
P.P.S. Here is Russ' chief [only] design flaw, and for this reason I only use Fish for my third arm, I have to use Yates for my primary pair:
"I put like 7 or 8 tacks in there, figuring it takes a lot of wear and tear from twisting and handling. I suppose it could be made shorter with less tacks, but I sorta like having a buttload of tacks to look at to convince myself I'm safer than I actually am."
No good, Russ. You gotta shorten up the stitching, man! I refuse to climb El Cap, and will only pull myself up using adjustable daisies with a 2:1 mechanical advantage less the friction through the buckle. But I can't pull myself all the way up with your adjustable daisies because there's too much bloody stitching on the mobius-girth hitch loop thingy.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Aug 11, 2009 - 11:54pm PT
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"We are doing an 8" loop these days, down from 10" a while back. We lob like 8 tacks into the girthing bond. Are you girthing it to your belay loop or around your leg loops and harness at the waist? With my caveman set up (Swami and leg loops) the sizing was just right.... that and I use a close-clip biner on my waist.
"This would be a good one to hear about.. like how you modern harness guys set it up and what length girth loop you might think is best. "
I girth mine around my waist/leg loops, same place I tie into the rope at, it's all about getting things short enough to avoid the fifi. I'm about the last person you want to ask about "modern setups", I'm just a fatso who gets out onto real rock about twice a year.
No need to send me stuff, I have too much already. I've got a Fish econobag, aid trees, wall bags, beef bags, two hooks (dropped my third, favorite 2.5" one), a couple Fish ledges, gear sling (needs less slipper padding covering), etc. Worse yet, I have a sewing machine (well, 3 actually), so I have a load of crap I've tried sewing that I'll probably never wear out at the rate I "climb".
Also, you gotta get some of those shirts like the Wall Psyche one reprinted... My two Fish shirts are getting a bit worse for wear, and the "Naked" one has worn out its welcome at my work...
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Aug 12, 2009 - 10:31am PT
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Yates the one with the metal ring on the pull end? I run that one and a fish side by side, girthed to my belay loops. For me both also require a fifi when in the 2nd step, but it is an easy fifi as my waist is right there. Both have self released in my clusterf*#kness system giving me a 2” heart attack. I can’t remember what caused it, but it is either a biner, or maybe the other daisy being weighted directly about the buckle, pressing it down and paying out some slack. Thump, thump, thump, thump, goes the heart… I am thinking about checking out Kate’s ushba system.
The Yates gets really fuzzy, the fish not so much so. No slippage from either yet.
Prod.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Aug 12, 2009 - 11:55am PT
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I third the comments about lengths of Fish loops.
Top buckle hangs 2" lower than Yates, and girth loop rises about 3" higher. 5" less reach, or an extra move to fifi higher, repeat umpteen times- not good.
Also the top of the end loops catch on stuff- PITA.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 12, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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What about the aluminum ring on the Yates vs. the sown loop on the Fish?
I've only used the Yates so I can't compare, but I like the ring.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Aug 12, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
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I personally haven't found the ring to be an advantage. Russ's have tripled webbing that is plenty easy to grab onto firmly. Also, the only time you grab the end is when things are fully extended, such as first step up onto a new piece, or at belay stations when you're down digging in the bags. The rest of the time you're yarding on just the strap, and the ring is out of the picture.
Some years back Karl Baba described his system which involved hanging an aider off the ring to truly winch himself up using his feet. I don't see the appeal, but it would be easier to do that trick with the Yates than the Fish.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Aug 12, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
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It's been a while since I've aided anything, but I seem to recall not liking the ring as it would get caught in cracks and on gear.
Prod.
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PhotogEC
climber
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Aug 13, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
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For those of you who missed it, Russ put one of his up on eBay, and I just snaked it!
Russ--I'll gladly provide you with some feedback once I've had a chance to use it a bit.
As an aside, I just got a new pair of Yates last week, and the dogbone has 4 bartacks, not 3, so if they were doing 3 for a while, they must have reverted back.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 13, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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PhotogEC et al:
I just did a super shorty test rig and have sent a sample of this new style along with one of our regular ones to PhotoEC.... he'll try them out. Since I did not want to kill him, I set up a test to see if the method was sound.
Here is the test daisy set up to be pulled.
Note that the cam is NOT engaged, since I really wanted to see how the blue webbing would handle the load. The way the daisy is normally set up, the cam will most likely cut the webbing around 2000lbs.
I stopped the test at 2600lbs and here was the damage to the end I was interested in: Not too bad really.... just slight cutting.
His test daisy has about 1.5" of clip in at the business end, really just enough for a biner. The girthing section is a 5" (or less?) loop, really just big enough to get the buckle through. Hopefully he'll let us know what he thinks.
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PhotogEC
climber
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Aug 14, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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Russ, assuming that you are successful in your attempt to not kill me with your wares, I will indeed report back. Looking forward to getting them!
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 14, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
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@John Mac- Wow, that was fast... The daisies showed up today! Thx! BTW, which is which? Not being a wall climber I've never looked at these sorts of things and don't know the difference. Oh, and thx for the lifetime supply of MP stickers! :-)
@everyone else- Thanks to John Mac we've got a Fish and a Yates to break... How do you all want it done? I can slow pull hydraulically or drop a bunch of steel onto them, so whatever you all decide would be best is fine by me. I'll probably won't have time to do it until Tuesday, so feel free to ponder/discuss for a couple days.
-aric.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 14, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
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Hey Aric, post up a pic of the FISH so I can tell you what vintage it is.... as to webbing specs and style.
I vote for violent drop test, since that is what the failure mode usually is...
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 14, 2009 - 12:50pm PT
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Hmmm... Probably safe to assume the one with the tag that says "YATES" isn't from FISH, huh? It was curled up under the end of the bartack and I didn't see it earlier.
Here's some pics. Looks like they use the same buckle and I suspect the ring on the YATES one is a SMC Rap Ring. The YATES uses all flat web and the FISH uses flat for the adjustable part and climb-spec tube for the small loop. You can't see it in the pics, but the FISH has an extra layer of web on the buckle (think BD C4 sling) and the Yates does not. Also the small loop on the FISH is flat while the YATES has the sides folded inwards and stitched together at the top, giving it a narrower profile.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 14, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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Cool... those look like fairly recent models and would be similar to identical to the stuff I would produce today. Tubular web for the clip and regular (not the super thick stuff) 1" flat for the main webbing. The replacement web should be more or less the same 1" webbing also.
Edit: one thing to note: Rub your finger on the teeth inside the cam.... even though the buckles may look the same or real close, Ancra has at least two styles of "teeth". I've used both styles, one being fairly smooth teeth, and the other being quite sharp or aggressive.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 14, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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Now that you mention it, the teeth _are_ different! On the YATES the teeth stay perpendicular to the curve of the lever and are ~8tpi. On the FISH they get somewhat off-perpendicular when it gets to the end of the curve and are ~9tpi. I don't have an easy way to measure tooth depth at the moment, but will rig something up later. If Ancra lists that sort of thing in their catalog the numbers stamped on the buckles are BM for the FISH (both on the frame and the cam) and CMG (frame) and PC (cam) for the YATES (I'm assuming those are part numbers, as they're the only things stamped on there).
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Aug 14, 2009 - 08:12pm PT
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The Yates is the yellow one!
Hopefully someone will send you a Metolius aider for testing so we can do a three way comparison.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2009 - 12:08am PT
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100 kg load on the adjustable daisy after a drop test
[/url]
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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Aug 15, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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It'll be interesting to see how these tests shake out.
My experience has been with Yates and I am a large dude (265lbs. without rack/rope) and I've taken a full length daisy fall onto my Yates and bent a BD Cliffhanger to 90 degrees at which point it blew off it's solid placement but the Yates adjustable daisy did not break.
I was pleased... with the daisy at least.
Pete
How exactly do you adjust the Yates while weighted with one hand? It seems to me that depressing the buckle while weighting it would lengthen the daisy uncontrolably.
I did a similiar thing as a rookie window washer on a gri-gri thinking I could just squeeze the cam open ever so slightly with my left hand while manipulating something with my right. Unfortunately I was about six feet over some guys platic roof on his deck and I promptly put my foot through it. Live and learn.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 15, 2009 - 01:13am PT
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Having your partner or another piece of weighted webbing accidently open up the adjustable buckle on your daisy is pretty horrifying, although in my personal experience (and as luck would have it), the cam has always closed up after no more than a foot or two. It has happened enough that I keep one eye peeled and warn my non-adjustable-using partners that they will send me around the bend if they lay into my buckle.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 16, 2009 - 11:42am PT
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Quick bump as a reminder that I need you all to decide to tell me how to test these... I've never done aid/wall so have no idea how you typically use these things.
Couple questions:
1. When these things do slip, what are you doing? Hanging/bouncing/heavily loaded while hauling? It would be easy enough to rig the puller to pull to a couple kN and stop, allowing us to get some data on that prior to breaking them in a drop.
2. When adjusting I assume it is usually not weighted? By which I mean would a reading on the force needed to pull the free end through the buckle be of any use?
3. Similarly, any use in a reading of the force necessary to pull through the buckle when weighted? And if so, how much weight?
4. Anyone have a recent vintage Yates and wouldn't mind counting the teeth on their buckle? There's not really a point in doing a comparison if they use the same buckle, so I'm looking to verify that there's some consistency in the buckles being different on FISH and YATES.
5. Given that both use 1" flat web for the adjustable part I'm thinking we may want to cut off the beat up Yellow web on the YATES and replace it with the new Orange FISH web. Not really a fair comparison of pull force when there's fat, shredded web on the YATES and practically new web on the FISH.
6. @John Mac- For the Metolius I assume you mean the Easy Daisy, not the Easy Aider?
Thoughts?
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 16, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
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Stopped by the local REI and not surprisingly no dice on the Metolius Easy Aider. Guess I could order one unless someone happens to have one they'd be willing to donate...
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 16, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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Welcome to the world of non equal testing environments Aric!
The buckles are different even within the same part number.... I always found that weird. Tooth radius and density varies, as does the cam trigger and the peening process for holding the cam in place. I have received both kinds, mixed, in the same order.
The webbing that I use even though it is all 1" flat, can be thicker per color, have a heavier hand, or just be flat out be different across the board. Some of it is so thick that the buckles will barely work... others feel like tissue.
Not sure what to tell ya... the orange webbing if you check it real close is slicker and probably thicker and will have a different feel than the purple in the buckle.... yet they are both listed as "the same" from the supplier.
I say just drop test them and lets all hope none of them fail at like 300lbs!
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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Well, no answers to my questions above yet so I've gone ahead and made some assumptions and started formulating a plan...
What'll be tested:
1. I figure I may as well include a Metolius Easy Daisy (EDIT) in this, so went ahead and ordered one. Should be here late in the week.
2. I missed the mention of the Petzl Quickfix earlier in the thread and will include one of those as well if there's interest. Sounds as if it's quite weak though, so I figured I'd ask if anyone even uses it before blowing $30 on it. For some reason my wife doesn't like when I buy gear with the sole intention of breaking it....
3. Teh Google turned up [url="http://www.bigwalls.com/forum2/index.php?topic=534.0"]this DIY adjustable daisy (EDIT)[/url], which looks quite easy rig up.
4. [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=925984&tn=28"]Jay Wood's DIY adjustable daisy (EDIT)[/url] from earlier in the thread is similar to the other DIY one, but possibly a bit harder to rig due to not having a similar buckle to cannibalize. I may be able to come up with something though, and if so will include it.
The tests:
1. Force required to pull through when unweighted.
2. Force required to pull through with 100# hanging from it (load cells on weighted side, free side and top anchor)
2b. Force to extend/ease of extension when unloaded
2c. Ease of extending when loaded
3. Load to 2 or 3kN (perhaps higher?) and see what happens, taking note of creep and/or failure
4. 10 successive 6" drops of 150#, noting creep/failure
5. FF1 drop of 150# to finish it off
That's about all I can come up with. Anything else or something to change?
-aric.
EDIT because I accidentally swapped terms...
EDITx2- Added tests 2b and 2c
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
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"Stopped by the local REI and not surprisingly no dice on the Metolius Easy Aider."
What does the Met Easy Aider have to do with this? Thought we were testing daisies?
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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D'oh! Kindly substitute "daisy" for "aider" in my earlier post. As I said, I'm not an aid climber... :-D
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Aug 17, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
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hahaha Figured it was a typo. No worries. :)
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 17, 2009 - 06:10pm PT
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Aric: be sure to look at this thread: Adjustable daisy math:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=92228
I think it has some stuff on one of the tests you are going to perform.....
Side note: if you want any stuff from me, like tubular web sewn/threaded into a buckle, or a "no-wrap" attachment where the webbing is not wrapped around the hard edge of the buckle, etc. let me know and I'll send it on over.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 17, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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Thanks Russ. It's actually your test from the other thread I'm looking to duplicate, with the addition of force measurements at all three points. :-)
And nice thing about doing hydraulically is that I'll capture not just the force needed to overcome the static friction but also what'll be needed to keep it going. There was a lot of armchair engineering in that thread that I'd like to put some numbers to...
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 18, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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Last call for input before I finalize things and start breaking stuff. As I've said, I've never done aid so am only vaguely familiar with how you guys use these things and would appreciate some guidance with the testing so I'm not breaking stuff simply for the sake of breaking it. The last thing I want is to be putting bad info due to incorrect assumptions on my part out there....
Outstanding questions:
1. When these things do slip, what are you doing? Hanging/bouncing/heavily loaded while hauling? It would be easy enough to rig the puller to pull to a couple kN and stop, allowing us to get some data on that prior to breaking them in a drop.
2. When adjusting I assume it is usually not weighted? By which I mean would a reading on the force needed to pull the free end through the buckle be of any use?
3. Similarly, any use in a reading of the force necessary to pull through the buckle when weighted? And if so, how much weight?
4. Given that both the FISH and YATES use 1" flat web for the adjustable part I'm thinking we may want to cut off the beat up Yellow web on the YATES and replace it with the new Orange FISH web. Not really a fair comparison of pull force when there's fat, shredded web on the YATES and practically new web on the FISH.
What'll be tested:
1. I figure I may as well include a Metolius Easy Daisy in this, so went ahead and ordered one. Should be here late in the week.
2. I missed the mention of the Petzl Quickfix earlier in the thread and will include one of those as well if there's interest. Sounds as if it's quite weak though, so I figured I'd ask if anyone even uses it before blowing $30 on it. For some reason my wife doesn't like when I buy gear with the sole intention of breaking it....
3. Teh Google turned up this DIY adjustable daisy, which looks quite easy rig up.
4. Jay Wood's DIY adjustable daisy from earlier in the thread is similar to the other DIY one, but possibly a bit harder to rig due to not having a similar buckle to cannibalize. I may be able to come up with something though, and if so will include it.
The tests:
1. Force required to pull through when unweighted.
2. Force required to pull through with 100# hanging from it (load cells on weighted side, free side and top anchor)
2b. Force to extend/ease of extension when unloaded (not sure how to test yet...)
2c. Ease of releasing/extending when loaded (how much load? Also not sure how to test yet...)
3. Load to 2 or 3kN (perhaps higher?) and see what happens, taking note of creep and/or failure
4. 10 successive 6" drops of 150#, noting creep/failure
5. FF1 drop of 150# to finish it off
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Aug 22, 2009 - 12:04am PT
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Aric,
Let me know how much you spent on the metolius daisy and I'll send some money to you via paypal. There is no reason why you should be paying for this.
Cheers
John
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Any updates on the testing?
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xtrmecat
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Aric may be a little aprehensive to test and post for a couple. Over on RC.noob I gave him some flack about posting data about this, for the sake of keeping data that could screw up a noobs learning process. It turned slightly ugly, but he may be aprehensive to follow through.
If you see this Aric, I do not believe the audience here and over at the BigWall site are too inexperienced to hear the data. ( Noobs get a quick education here, or a kick to the groin, or whatever.) If you do indeed follow up with the testing, I would again caution posting it in the more amatureish websites.
For those curious as to my thinking, and the thread, here it is.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2192239;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;page=unread#unread
I may have been out of line, but some of the monumental idiots over there take simple things and run them into the ground with pages and pages of simple do not do's, and when it is all said and done, the noob may interpret the do not's as OK.
Sorry if I held up your curiosity. Flame away, but it is habit for me, from my professional life. Every time we made some machine idiot proof, they would hire a better idiot.
Bob
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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ummm... Bob..... That link has nothing to do with what you are gurgling about.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Sorry guys, forgot to update here. First off, sorry for the delay on the testing... Seems par for the course for me lately. Too many things catching my interest lately.
Here's the scoop of the moment: I haven't had a chance to do it yet and am headed out for a week of climbing. Again, sorry about that. On the up side, I forwarded a copy of the proposed tests to a contact I have at Metolius for feedback and what I have posted above looked good to him. My concern with the testing was that there's no UIAA spec for me to test to, so wanted to make sure I wasn't out in left field with what I was planning to do. It just happens that I caught him in a busy period, so it took him a while to take a look at it.
Anyway, once I get back next Weds I just need to fab up the bracket for the plates on the drop fixture and then I'll bang these out, with 'these' being the FISH, YATES, Metolius, 2 DIY rigs and a homemade KONG Slyde.
Gotta go, lots of packing to do.
-a.
EDIT- Oh, hey there Bob.... No worries about our tiff over on RC. I understand fully where you're coming from with it. I actually didn't want to spread this over there, but got impatient for feedback on the proposed testing since folks here seemed to have wandered off. Anyway, I'll get the testing done ASAP once I'm back next week.
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PhotogEC
climber
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So, as Russ mentioned in an earlier post, he sent me a modified version of the Fish adjustable daisies to try out, making me an Official Fish Products Tester®.
With the opening caveat that I don't have nearly as much experience with these things as most of you out there, here, after a full day of using both, is my feedback, which is focused on Russ' modified version vs. the "standard." Other folks have commented on Fish vs. Yates elsewhere.
First, some relevant measurements:
Modified:
Girth loop: 4-1/2 inches (from end of loop to end of bartacks on the webbing)
Clip-in loop: 1-1/8 inches (from the top of the buckle to the top of the loop)
Standard:
Girth loop: 7 inches
Clip-in loop: 4 inches
Everything else was equivalent between the two.
Observations while using:
1. The clip-in loop on the modified version is VERY short--a little too short. I found that the buckle was so close to the biner, it limited movement a little bit. I also found myself holding the top of the buckle and bottom of the biner together when clipping into a piece, which was not the most comfortable arrangement.
2. The modified's clip-in loop is a double loop of tubular webbing. Russ kindly had attached a note to the daisy that you need to clip through both loops--well and good if you're paying attention, but if you're not, it would be really easy to only clip one loop.
3. For my purposes, the shorter girth clip-in loops on the modified version were WAY better than the standard. With the standard version, all the way cinched in, I was really far from the wall, regardless of whether I had the daisy on my belay loop or directly in the tie-in loops of the harness. Much too far for my liking, and I found myself using a combination of daisy and fifi, which was slowing me down. With the modified version, I could pull in much closer--no fifi needed. The combined difference of the shorter girth and clip-in loops is over 5". That's 5 inches closer to the wall you can get with the modified daisy! I could comfortably reach placements from the second step of my aiders with the modified version that I was having to go into my top step to reach using the standard, unless I also fifi'd into the piece. I'm a little over 5'8", so this is may be less of an issue for the taller folks out there, but it made a huge difference to me.
So, if I were in the Fish Products Product Development Department, here's what I would do: switch to the modified version of the daisy, but extend the clip-in loop slightly, and bartack it into a really short dogbone.
Let me know if you have any specific questions about either daisy, points of comparison against the Yates, or if there are more pics of any specific details you'd like posted.
Thanks for the daisy, Russ; I'll be putting it to good use!
--Eric
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Good report!
Thanks!
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Boise....
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Ya know, plain old daisies last forever.
Remember those? I do.
I'm outa touch, though, really.
Nevermind.
I DID put an adjusty on the bag. That's nice.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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I could take a good look at a t-bone steak by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take the butchers word on it.
Buy Fish, no bull.
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xtrmecat
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Russ, oops.
Sorry about the bad link, too many monitors and things going at once. Fixed it. Note to self, do not do homework, surf, and talk on the phone all at once. Could do it once way long ago, but those days are obviously gone.
Also awaiting the results. No worries Aric, you ruffled no feathers here.
Bob
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Haven't happened yet, I'm afraid.
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