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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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May 21, 2009 - 07:13pm PT
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OOps ! Chipping and gluing....thought this was a finger/toe nail thread. :DD
Enhance...."To increase or improve in value, quality, desirability or attractiveness."
Maybe another word for chipping and gluing needs to be found. Enhance may not fit the ticket.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
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May 21, 2009 - 07:24pm PT
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Bachar has it.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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May 21, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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All of us agreeing with/relating to JB are overlooking a small part of his story--he was on an established route trying to free it.
Not exactly the same as walking up to a cliff (with few or no visits) and seeing if the nature of the rock will allow a route to go in the best style possible for the conditions.
...jus' sayin' it's a little apples/oranges in this case, whatever the feelings involved.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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May 21, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
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I think John was trying to make a point. The point being that even though a route may appear to be unclimbable, due to one or two "blank" or "impossible" moves, it's best left to the next person or generation that may be able to make it go. Or, in it's most basic form, it's best not to bring the rock down to your level. And no matter how it's spun, that's what's happened. And it's certainly not apples and oranges, the ethic and principle are the same, regardless of whether or not the route has been climbed already or not.
I wonder how many routes out there could have gone a long time ago, at significantly lower grades, with a little chipping? How many .14s could have gone years earlier with a few things modified down to .13, the same for .15s, etc. Just a thought...
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
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May 21, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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jstan - these days I think aid starts at 5.3.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 21, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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THere is a world of difference between glueing and chipping (I have done neither)
Some crags have essential holds that won't remain without glueing. That becomes a local issue.
Chipping is something else. For established climbing areas it seems out of line almost all the time (but it happens, even in the roundabout way Bridwell pinned out Freestone "cause it would have happened anyway"
Still, if I lived in some off the track area, jonesing to climb, and we had a crag that was blankish but could be climbed with some chipping, I still wouldn't chip it (cause I'm lazy), but would probably be happy if others did.
So the devil is in the details, post up what happened
Peace
Karl
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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May 21, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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Grahm,
Seeing as this issue has been raised and discussed among a limited number of Shuteye locals several years ago, is it your sense that chipping has slowed or abated in the region? I know you can't speak for the other "enhanced" routes and their authors, but word has it some of the heavy hold modification has appeared in the 5.11a range. Many who love the region and it's amazing rock are listening intently.
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jstan
climber
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May 21, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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So I guess the way is open for me to be the first person ever to do Everest without oxygen ten times in one day. I'll git me one o'them Erickson Sky Cranes, turbo charge the hell out of it, and cut the weight in half. One problem. Based upon my experience I think it best if I piss on the summit each time. Maybe I could do it eight times?
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Radish
Trad climber
Seki, California
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May 21, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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Hey, Everest is only 5.7 right??
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jstan
climber
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May 21, 2009 - 09:13pm PT
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It is if the stirrups have been left on the step. But my route will be much more elegant.
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Oakhurst, CA
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May 21, 2009 - 09:32pm PT
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As far as I know there is no more chipping. Enough bad feelings are floating around about it! There is one 11 that had 2 holds chipped but that route developer has agreed to not do this anymore. The rumor mill is blowing the whole thing out of proportion. There are hundreds of routes at Shuteye that are all natural and a very small handful that have a few holds chipped. The valley has more chipping in my opinion.
Bottom line there is room for a thousand more routes. Come on out and put something up in your style.
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tom Slater
Trad climber
CA
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May 21, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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Grahm's been pretty straight up, so the remaining question is...
why is "reporter" hiding, and why so angry, and so willing to make personal attacks?
He lit the fire and took off. Not super impressed.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 21, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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Agree that a real straight up discussion is in order, not a pitchforks and torches overgeneralization by anonymous sources.
Graham seems willing to talk reasonably. What's the issue and, since he reports that chipping has stopped, how does the community move forward?
Graham, not saying you were right or wrong to establish what went up so far, but, given the same circumstances now, would you make the same call?
Peace
Karl
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wtfd
climber
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May 21, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
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so, the chipping thing has been pretty much summed up, what about gluing, ive got a project the hasnt been solved, the saving grace of the route, (for me) would be to glue a hold, going from a bad sloaper to a nice incut jug. the hold is still in place, but would come out with a tug in the wrong direction. what say you?
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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May 22, 2009 - 12:26am PT
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I always loved the "don't bring it down to your level" argument (not that I condone chipping). Doesn't doing anything other than climbing solo, on-sight, and naked involve "bringing it down to your level" (rock shoes with sticky rubber, chalk, ropes, gear, etc.?) The idea of "bringing it down to your level" isn't really what's being questioned (we all do that). The argument is about the methods that we employ to bring it down to our level. Just a thought.
Another thought: What's the difference between an absolutely blank face (vertical and smooth as glass) with a few aid bolts and the same face with a few chipped holds, where the amount of rock removed for the chipped holds equals the amount of rock removed for the bolt holes?
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dirhk
Trad climber
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May 22, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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I think it would be cool to take the bolt ladders in Yosemite and put gym holds there instead, using the original bolt holes. The climbing would be cooler and the impact the same, right? The leaning tower first pitches could be way fun, instead of a boring bolt ladder. Just leave a bolt every now and then to avoid death.
As far as first ascents go, why not just glue on a plastic hold instead of chipping? When it gets done without the plastic hold, rip it off, no impact at all. Much better than drilling an aid bolt.
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Reporter
Trad climber
behind your back
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Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2009 - 08:30pm PT
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Tom slater Doe!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
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Creepy!!! The rationalizations going on. Chipping or gluing can never be justified and anyone who does should be banned to a lifetime of "gym only" climbing. You know there is a lot of unexplored, untouched rock out there- go explore! I hear so many people on ST posting about the same, relatively few climbs in the same places. No wonder people are bored enough to even consider chipping and gluing. A sign that the apocalypse is upon is all of the posting I've seen on that abortion of a climb Serenity Crack. Expand your horizons!!!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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As you know Fattrad there are first ascents and then there are first ascents. I'll take quality over quantity anytime. If people are willing to walk a little they can find FA's that they won't have to artificially bring down to there level.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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Yeah!!! Lets make fertilizer out of them. Then we could get some grass to grow in Camp 4.
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