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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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"It's my understanding that the older models (5+ years) are OK."
-have any lasted that long? they funk so easily. That's why I never bought one.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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They don't make aliens in the sizes you would want anyways Jaybro.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I keep coming back to the seeming non existence of documented and monitored brazing procedures.
A joint that was improperly quenched (as has been mentioned previously to have happened) may easily pass a straight line pull test in a gig and be seriously weakened if loaded on an angle or flexed repeatedly. It's the quenching of the wire that may be the problem if they are failing in that mode rather than the joint pulling apart.
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andanother
climber
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Wow, Lambone. That's a lot of aliens!
You will be missed by many, I'm sure. But I just sent an email to the folks at the Darwin Awards with a link to this thread and a few others. They'll be keeping an eye on your, uh, "progress".
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Howie
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
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I too would be very interested in the brazing procedure, as well as the tensile/strain testing procedure too.
I'm not excited about recalls that perform these sort of tests and return to the user. A tensile test is normally a relatively slow test. Not really representative of fall loading. Simulated fall tests should be fairly easy to set up for. Of course these cannot account for every situation but might be more representative than just a tensile test. Could these be computer simulated too I wonder?
Howie.
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andanother
climber
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TGT, that's a great point. There seem to be many great (and mindboggling) points that have brought up against CCH.
The problem is that the guy simply doesn't care. If he cared, he wouldn't keep making the sh#t.
So using science, logic, or rational thought is only going to make this ordeal even more frustrating. That's why I like to stick with the wise-ass comments.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oh, Shack, we all step out of our comfort zone from time to time; I led bachelor party @ the cat wall largley with borrowed aliens, they were the sh#t, for that. Would have bought them for aid, If I had a different wall/time intersect.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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I love my Aliens but they're going on sabbatical until I can test them with a funkness driven by a BIG hammer.
Mal
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tom brogan
Trad climber
san diego, ca
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There were a bunch of us over on the Res Wall on Sunday when that Alien came apart. I really can't understand how anyone can trust them ever again. I wouldn't use them if they were free! It doesn't matter that they are an awesome design if the manufacturing QC is bogus.
It is interesting to watch climbers' reactions (and mine as well) to such events. Everyone is just standing around shaking their heads like they had just witnessed something they felt deep in their core was impossible. A properly placed cam will keep you off the talus when things go south. Now we question that again.
Tom
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I'll always take an Alien (hybrid!) over most anything else in a thin placement, regardless of the recent problems CCH has had.
Then again, I am too old to freeclimb, so I only use them for aid. So, if one blows out, so what? The whole pitch is sketch. I pulled an ancient head on Tribal Rite, and three pieces below it, and swung to a stop on a yellow-green Alien.
The brazing process itself, using a 40-60% silver brazing alloy, is very reliable, when done correctly.
There is some, correctable, mfg defect, that is causing the Aliens to fail. I think that once CCH figures out what is causing the problems, the cams will be back to 100%, they way they used to be.
The number of things that can go wrong at the braze joint is relatively large, however:
 too big a gap between the cable and the fitting (zero-0.003")
lubricated cable, instead of unlubricated (supplier f-tup?)
insufficient cleaning of the cable and fitting (see above)
improper heat cycle (too much localized heat, too fast)
no vent hole to ensure proper filling of the joint
insufficient flux (not likely, but possible)
oxidizing torch flame, instead of reducing torch flame
motion of the joint before solidification
I think that CCH will find out what went wrong, and then continue to produce good Alien cams.
I certainly hope they do, because in the sub-fingers to fat-fingers sizes, those are the best cams I've used.
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mpandy
Trad climber
Jackson Hole, WY
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It's my understanding (from a rumor) that CCH has stopped producing Aliens entirely and has sold the patent to Kong. What Kong does with it - for better or worse - remains to be seen....
Of course, this is an entirely unconfirmed rumor that I heard from a manager at a gear shop.....
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Andy,
I heard the same rumor a couple of months ago that Kong was in the process of trying to purchase CCH and had started discussions with them.
This was from a friend of mine who works for Black Diamond. I'll try to find out more.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Hey Mal - send them to Mussy. He's all rigged up in the back yard to pull test those suckers. Need to take mine over there and get 'em done.
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emac
Trad climber
New Hampshire
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I had my entire set of Alien cams tensile tested by CCH. Now, I have little concept of what exactly that means they did to the units, but it's given me confidence to continue using them. Like many have said, I try to make it a point not to "test" the strength of these, or any, unit at the cliffs, but when done, they've been solid. In fact, 2 weeks ago I took repeated falls on the two smalleest Aliens placed side-by-side in a less than ideal horizontal at the Gunks. On the 4th failed attempt (i.e. fall!) the tiniest tore out, but the next size still held. I don't think either of these pieces are ideal for lead falls, but placed in a horizontal, with the stem over a 90-degree edge, and fallen on several times, they worked great. I still believe Aliens have a place on a rack. Possibly not as an everyday set of cams, but there are places out there that nothing else I've found works so well (ridiculously pin scarred now-free routes in the Valley for one).
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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I have been using the Aliens for years and love all of them. I have all eight sizes (except the grey) and have personally fallen on every size, even the .33. I have taken up to 20' falls on them and took several 10' falls on the .33 and have never had a problem. When climbing hard trad they are almost mandatory to protect the thin stuff. It is kind of sketchy when you hear about pro failing but you need to take into consideration that 99.9 percent of them are fine. I'm sure many of you still won't use them but I think they're great.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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"but you need to take into consideration that 99.9 percent of them are fine."
I'm probably not the only one who isn't convinced the percentage of good ones is that high (not convinced it's not either), and simple claiming that 999 out of 1000 are fine doesn't make it so. Certainly most of them are fine. But an alarming number have broken.
I'm uncertain about widespread the problem is. Pretty confident in my Aliens, but I've only got a couple, and they're pretty old.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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Obviously that percentage is not absolute fact, but out of the thousands that are out there a very small percentage have failed. And I realize that isn't justification, 0% should ever fail but they are a great design and they're always on my rack.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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"...are almost mandatory..."
That's so far off. People have been climbing 'hard trad' for generations, long before Friends existed, let alone the relatively recent apparition of Aliens. Historical perspective - something every climber should try to have.
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andanother
climber
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Thanks Melissa. And keep in mind that those are the only ones that have been reported on the net.
Considering the big picture, only a very small percentage of climbers visit and post on internet forums. So who knows how many Aliens have failed on people.
In order to be fair, we should compile a similar list of legitmate-brand cams that have failed recently.
I took the time and compiled this list. It is a record of incidents of failure that have been reported on the net:
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