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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 21, 2007 - 01:07am PT
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1575796;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
Reposting from RC.com
It may be a brand new Alien which fell apart, a post recall, not a problem batch, but who can say just yet.
Dude (posting as pinsandbones shows up mid-discussion on the accident and injuries thread and says:
"There was indeed a BROKEN Alien involved in the Easter weekend accident on Souder's Crack. I would have posted earlier, but just recently received surgery to pin my wrist back together. Aside from being laid up for six months, I am very fortunate to have come away from the fall with only the injuries I have sustained. Many thanks go out to all that have helped me with this ordeal. As for the cam, it broke off right at the end if the stem, leaving the head and trigger assembly still set in the rock. It appears to me that the malfunction was due to a manuf. defect. This is being discussed with CCH. I would strongly advise all who are climbing on post recall aliens to be very careful".
That's "post recall aliens".
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Apr 21, 2007 - 10:03am PT
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At this point, according to the rest of the thread, they haven't confirmed the manufacture date or whether or not there was a dimple on the alien. It could be that this alien was one of the recalled ones, or it might not be, of course.
They describe the failure as the stem pulling out leaving the trigger system and head behind, the same as what would happen in a braze failure.
Apparently, the guy is working with CCH and the shop where he purchased it and we'll hear more.
-Kate.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Apr 21, 2007 - 10:41am PT
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For what it's worth, Kate, the Alien that failed at Paradise Forks last year did not have a dimple. Failed right at the braze point.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Apr 21, 2007 - 10:57am PT
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I heard that PF deal was a "returned (dimpled) to REI and given a 'new' one affair"...
Sounds to me like there were 2 accidents at RRG. Belayer failure and a "head popped off"...
Yall be careful out there!
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Apr 21, 2007 - 07:11pm PT
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426 - Roger on the PF unit being one that was a replacement for a dimpled unit. Just saw Caleb today (guy that was involved in the PF accident) and he's doing great. Could have been way worse.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Apr 21, 2007 - 07:15pm PT
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Yikes. Glad I sent mine back for tensile testing.
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Ezra
Trad climber
WA, NC
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Apr 21, 2007 - 07:16pm PT
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Where do you send them to pull test cams????
That's the only way I'd buy an Alien.
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The Dog
Sport climber
Joshua Tree, Ca
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Apr 21, 2007 - 08:01pm PT
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Sounds like the fall could have easily generated the 12kN to which the unit is rated. If that is the case, then where the unit failed simply does not matter ... it did it's job. If I remember correctly, the consequences of climbing are spelled out pretty clearly on every piece of equipment sold for at least the last ten years. Unless you have an assistant working a computer simulation while you climb it is pretty hard to figure how much force you will generate at any given time, so it is best to err on the side of caution and leave your ego at home. Better to back off if a climb is over your head and you know it. Just my experience (20 years) here. I am sorry that you are hurt and wish you a full and speedy recovery.
The Dog
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Apr 21, 2007 - 08:13pm PT
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re: tensile-testing - see thread here.
Newer ones should have the 'tensile-tested' stamp, shown in a pic on that thread, else send them in for testing. Ones made before 11-04 are safe AFAIK, but I don't have any that old.
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andanother
climber
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Apr 22, 2007 - 11:13am PT
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It's unfortunate that the guy got hurt, but he seemed to be aware of what has been going on with CCH over the last five years.
Anyone who knows how to read, yet STILL buys and climbs on Aliens is a complete idiot. Sorry, you might try to blame CCH for the defective products, but it's your own stupidity for buying the damn thing.
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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2007 - 11:45am PT
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Andanother/AC, I think we have a board full of idiots. Myself included.
The dog has a very good point, but given how many issues there's been, any new Alien failure should be looked at signifigantly closer than any report of a BD or Metolius cam failure which are absurdly rare.
I heard once of something like a tiny Metolius 00 tcu failing. It was pointed out that despite the 4KN rating and factory advice to use as an aid only piece, the guy had taken a large lead fall onto it. Even those kinds of failures are rare for BD and Metolius, which is really shocking when you are looking at how small and fragile those kinds of little pieces actually are.
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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2007 - 12:09pm PT
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As I understand it A.C. CHH got lucky with the dimples. They subbed out some work to a fella who was concerned that his quality work would be confused with CHH's other (shoddy?) stuff. At his own inititive, he punched the dimple to identify his high quality work.
But, to speed the process of brazing, immeditatly after brazing he would dip the unit in cold water to cool it off so he could continue.
Bad idea as it was that which caused the failures. Fortunatly, CCH was then able to determine what really happened as they could quickly and accidentally identify the batches.
CCH, with help from several regular climbers like HealyJH and TGreene, has inititated some process changes designed to all but elimated chances for mfg errors, but if found, quickly be able to pinpoint the possible lots.
Tensile testing of ALL Aliens before the leave the factory is one of the results. All Aliens should be stamped "tensile Tested" on the swage.
Interestingly enough. They will test all units which you send back to them. I did this with like 20+ units. I put a identification tag on each unit before shipping them. 1 was recieved back with out a tag, which may have indicated a possible testing failure. Surprisingingly, most, but NOT all, of the units were stamped "tensile tested".
You can get them tested AC, by sending them directly to CHH and they will gladly do this for you.
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andanother
climber
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Apr 22, 2007 - 12:25pm PT
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"What else about Aliens should I know?"
It's my understanding that the older models (5+ years) are OK. They obviously have more problems than a legitimate cam, but seem safe enough.
When the recall happened, I remember being blown away by the complete lack of concern on behalf of CCH.
Since the recall of the dimpled Aliens there have been a handful of identical failures on non-dimpled aliens.
and now for the wise-ass remark:
Since you spend 24 hours a day watching this forum, hitting the "refresh" button, the strength of the cams in your closet is irrelevant.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 22, 2007 - 04:26pm PT
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I've been around the metal fabricating world in one capacity or another for beter than 35 years now. ASME has had well developed procedures for all aspects of welding and brazing for a hell of a lot longer than that.
If I buy a non presurized chemical storage tank, that if it fails will only result in a major hassle but no posible loss of life. That tank will have about an inch of paper submitted before the approval for fabrication that documents all the:
Structural calculations,
Seismic loading calculations
Documentation of the quality of the materials and fasteners supplied,
The exact welding procedures to be used,
Proof of certification of the welders that do the procedures.
Documentation of test procedures
Results of sample and final tests.
Witnessing by a third party of final tests.
etc.
All of this by independent and licenced pros or at a minimum the signature of someone asuming legal responsibility for the accuracy of the statements.
There's no need for "lilly Guilding" and frankly a lot of those requirements are imposed only to guarantee an income stream for those with the power to mandate regulations that benefit themselves.
Still, climbing equipment should at least be built to common ASME standards!
BD, Metolious, DMM, and others seem to adhere internaly to a parallel sytem of standards. And, when their products do fail, it is almost always due to stressing beyond design limits, and they still seem take the failures seriously.
CHH from all acounts and the general apperance of their product has an ad hoc approach to quality control. If you can't afford the kind of quality control program that is industry standard, maybe you should be making a widget that no one is hanging their a$$ out on.
That's why I've never owned any.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Apr 22, 2007 - 05:27pm PT
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"Aliens are catching screamers all over the world"
Problem is that lately sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. I'm not so much into trusting my whole enchilada to one alien these days. When I do, I always kinda know what I've climbing over.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Apr 22, 2007 - 06:12pm PT
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Not all climbs let you build a nest of pro when you want it most. My favorite back up in those situations is always not falling no matter what the pro is, but I'm extra aware of it if I don't think my pro is bomber...and I don't think the aliens are as bomber as I used to.
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jsb
Trad climber
Palo Alto, CA
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Apr 25, 2007 - 07:52pm PT
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Hey everybody (first post!),
This is mostly a bump, but there have been a few more interesting posts about this incident on the rockclimbing.com forum:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1575796;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;guest=10876506
Specifically, a user named j_ung claims he/she actually phoned up cch to find out what the deal was... here's the post.
> j_ung, Apr 25, 2007, 8:01 AM, Post #74 of 86 (228 views)
>
>I don't know why I'm bothering with this, since I don't own any
>Aliens and I don't intend to ever buy any under any
>circumstances, but I called CCH and asked what's up. Understand,
> I'm not acting as a journalist in this case, like I was during
>the original recall episode. I'm just curious to hear what's
>going on.
>
>
>CCH was indeed contacted by, I assume, pinsandbones, in regard
>to the failure of his Alien. Said contact included pictures of
>the failed unit, which, apparently showed a broken cable stem,
>not a failed braze. So this failure is not the same as the
>recall failures. That MIGHT actually be bad news, since it may
>-- MAY -- point to an entirely different problem. However, it's
>important to note that cable-stemmed cams are vulnerable to some
> extent to sharp edges, of which it appears Souder's Crack has
>plenty. Without any additional information, I'll allow this
>failure might be due to that. To me, it's beginning to appear
>that this is not the result of any shortcoming on CCH's part.
>
>
>Dave Waggoner also told me that he requested additional contact
>from the pinsandbones several days ago, but has not gotten it.
>Not sure where pinsandbones is, but he's not here either. Hey,
>pinandbones! Post up your pics, mate!
>
>
>Lastly, I suggested to Waggoner that he post up with an update
>on this. I told him that, even if he has no additional
>information, a lot of people would appreciate some kind of proof
> that they care about what people think. It kinda seemed like
>that hadn't occurred to him. Waggoner's exact words were, "Yeah,
> I should probably go ahead and do that today."
>
>
>Though the limited information available appears to vindicate
>CCH, at least in this particular incident, I'm not seeing a
>whole lot to make me change my mind about them and Aliens.
>Quality assurance aside, they still seem to be unaware of or
>indifferent to the legitimate fears of their customers. Instead
>of responding to worst-case scenarios, as I believe they should,
>they still seem to act (or not act as the case may be) based on
>what they hope is true.
>
>
>Aliens remain the only cam on the market today above which I
>refuse to climb.
 justin
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Apr 25, 2007 - 08:38pm PT
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If I'm reading correctly, it sounds like he doesn't know how to place a cam. These cams work a lot better when you place them in the direction of pull. I believe a WC Flex Friend broke the same way in a well known accident a few years back. I find it interesting how he claims the piece above "failed" on him as well.
JLP
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 25, 2007 - 09:30pm PT
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If Aliens had the same qualities as other cams, I'd buy other cams.
But nothing rules the wasteland of pin scars in Yosemite like Aliens. For aid beyond A1, you better have some or safety suffers. In some dicey pin scar, another cam might not be as likely to fail but would be 10x more likely to just pull out.
Peace
Karl
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phillip mike revis
climber
snowbird, ut
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Apr 25, 2007 - 09:53pm PT
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i have always thought that aliens were inferior to cams of the bigger name brands
i have never owned any and never thought i could have done anything any easier with them even in the pin scared world of yosemite and i don't think that saftey has suffered
and besides how can a company based in wyoming call itself colorado custom hardware
obviously aliens suck
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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2007 - 11:36pm PT
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Phillip Mike said: " i have always thought that aliens were inferior to cams of the bigger name brands
i have never owned any and never thought i could have done anything any easier with them even in the pin scared world of yosemite and i don't think that saftey has suffered
and besides how can a company based in wyoming call itself colorado custom hardware
obviously aliens suck".
I don't know what you are talking about. I may not be the only one either.
_
What I find interesting, Tradrack.com claims that these are UIAA and CE approved, yet it says nothing about it on the actual Alien site. Hmmmm. Maybe I'm missing something.
In either case, what size alien was it? The OP on RC.com said this on April 25th 2007:
"First off, thanks to all for the positive thoughts. Second, sorry for the delay in getting back to the forum, I am not a regular, and have been very busy catching up with life (i.e. finishing a 16 credit semester without the use of my dominant hand/arm). Now, about the alien. I will attempt to answer many of the questions posted. It was not a broken stem due to an edge or any other strange action on the cam. It was a vertical placement and broke at the head. Where it broke, was well into the crack. It was NOT A RECALLED ALIEN. I was seventy feet up or so when I fell from just a few feet above the piece. i will be posting pictures of the alien, but not yet. Just know that it did not fail because of an edge or any other contortion. It was a good clean placement.
Thanks again for the concerns and I will post more when I have all of my facts together.
P&B "
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 26, 2007 - 12:08am PT
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All CCH would have to do to put this to rest is publish documentation of how it follows and documents industry standard procedures.
It ain't all that hard to find out what they are. If they can't afford to buy the books a trip to the library at even a back woods engineering school would suffice.
[url]http://www.aws.org/w/s/associations/bsmc/stdspc.html[/url]
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 26, 2007 - 02:15am PT
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Scored a brand new double set off Offest Aliens on ebay the other day! (to replace my first which a beat)
F-YEAH! Take me to the Captain!
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So Ill Climber
climber
So Ill and Yosemite
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Apr 26, 2007 - 09:39am PT
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JLP, You did read j_ung's post correctly, but it was incorrect. The placement was vertical and where the braze failed, was inside of the crack. It was placed in the direction of pull and went over no edges of any kind.
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Apr 26, 2007 - 10:41am PT
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Until we see pictures, I think I'm going to assume, based on what's been said so far, that the guy doesn't know how to place a cam. A couple close-up pics of the break would tell all.
JLP
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 26, 2007 - 11:22am PT
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I don't understand all of the accounts I have read regarding this accident.
The leader hit the ground after the anchor failure. By the account at rc.com, he was approaching the final anchors of a climb roughly 60 feet long. Given a maximum 40% rope stretch, the next piece could have been around 36 feet from the belayer giving a maximum fall factor of say 48/60 = 0.8, but the piece was put in somewhere in that 24 feet, lets say that it was roughly half way, then f = 24/60 = 0.4
The impact force can be found here
Assume an 80kg climber and a rope "specific spring constant" of 20000 kg
F ≈ 176lb × [1 + √( 1 + 2 × 0.4 × 20000/800)]
= 982 lbs
from http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/recall/faq.html
.33 -BLACK 1800lbs
3/8 -BLUE 2100lbs
1/2 -GREEN 2700lbs
3/4 -YELLOW 2700lbs
1.0 -RED 2700lbs
1.5 -ORANGE 3500lbs
2.0 -PURPLE 3500lbs
2.5 -CLEAR 3500lbs
What bothers me, however, is that we learn at a very early time in our climbing careers not to depend on a single piece of pro in our system...
Putting a piece in that 24' stretch might not seem like running it out, the consequence of the piece failure was a ground fall.
edit always take a shower after calculating... yes I caught that too... thanks graniteclimber
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Apr 26, 2007 - 11:45am PT
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Edit: deleted because typo was fixed
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So Ill Climber
climber
So Ill and Yosemite
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Apr 26, 2007 - 07:50pm PT
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JLP, I was trying to clarify based on the fact that I have seen the pics. So you can choose to believe people who are basing their posts off of "I heard" and "Was posted" or you can believe a post by someone who has actually seen the pics of the cam broken right at the head and other pics of the placement still in the rock, minus the stem. I am just trying to let people know that it was a cam failure, not operator error.
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OlympicMtnBoy
climber
Seattle
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Apr 26, 2007 - 08:07pm PT
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Since the whole recall thing had me a little sketched, but I still love my aliens because they work in places nothing else does, I sent mine back to CCH for tensile testing. I sent 9 cams back, all with little tags, about half were significantly pre-recall, the rest were newer. It took about 6 weeks which was ok cause it was winter. They all came back stamped with a "tensile tested" mark and a little tag that said "tensile tested by Dave Waggoner". None of mine looked to have had any parts replaced and my marker tags were still on them. It cost my like $10 to ship them to CCH, not a bad price at all and I'm now once again happily plugging away with them.
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jsb
Trad climber
Palo Alto, CA
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Apr 26, 2007 - 10:04pm PT
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Correct me if i'm wrong, but haven't all the post-recall cams been tensile tested before being shipped out?
Maybe there was a window of time after the recall period (11-04 to 12-05) but before the practice of de facto tensile testing... and then this cam somehow happened to land in that window, and a defect was missed. If not, I am eager to learn how this well-placed, 'tensile tested' cam supposedly failed under a very modest leader fall.
For starters, it'd be helpful to know...
1) What was the size/rated strength of the cam that failed
2) What was the manufacturing date?
3) Was it stamped as tested?
jb
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Apr 26, 2007 - 11:22pm PT
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Like I said, I'll wait until the pix are posted.
JLP
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 27, 2007 - 12:33am PT
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irrespective of the cam failure, when a single piece of pro is between you and the ground, you have to take into account the possibility of a failure. Sh#t happens, you want to make sure that when it does you have some sort of backup to save your ass.
How do you climb a 60' gear route (I assume it's a gear route) and hit the ground from a fall initiated near the anchor chains?
Don't we all play the "what if game" when we are climbing?
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BV
Trad climber
Reno
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Apr 27, 2007 - 03:13am PT
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Took a 30ft whipper on a yellow alien at the creek earlier this month. Boy am I glad I sent mine in for testing!
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lunchbox
Trad climber
santa cruz, ca
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Apr 27, 2007 - 01:47pm PT
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Perhaps a brief description and history of Souders Crack is in order, for all of our beloved climbing detectives on the forum....
I've climbed this route about a dozen times on top rope, and have never seriously thought about leading it for several reasons. In fact, I've only heard of one person ever leading it.
Souders crack is officially listed as a TR in the guide books. It's 80 feet long and you set it up by climbing the ultra classic Rock Wars. This is a perfect TR set up, the rope hangs clean and right in front of Souders Crack from the bolts on Rock Wars.
anyway.....
The first 3rd of the route is pretty easy, climbing over a fractured flake system and a huge block that looks like Boot flake on the Nose. There's no gear on this part that would keep you off the ground or hold you hat, but the climbing is easy enough that you don't need it anyway.
This is where the real climbing starts and is the first chance to get some pro. I'm guessing you don't get much more that a couple of green or yellow aliens behind the flake before it seams out and isn't much deeper than a pad. It's important to note that this part of the route is the only real place to get gear as the last 3rd of the route is a splitter seam to the anchors. After a couple of hard "layback-ish" moves you get flared, first knuckle tips with no real feet. There's no gear in the last 15 to 20 feet to the chains and this is the crux of the climb. It's very insecure...
Leading this would be similar to gunning it for the head point on a hard grit stone route as it doesn't even get a R/X rating, just a TR in the guide book.
P&B
hope you heal up fast dude...
sorry for the RC.com like post...just though it's important to know that its not you average trad climb....
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Micah Dash
climber
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I saw another Alien brazeing failure, with my own eyes, yesterday in Indian Creek. It was a new purple Alien maybe six months old. Nobody was hurt.We took pictures and will post them soon.
Micah
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Micah...No one was hurt, I hope?
Was it a no-dimple unit w/ a date stamp after the recall (and pull testing was initiated)? I'm interested to see where it broke.
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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2007 - 02:31pm PT
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# 2.0 -PURPLE Strength = 3500lbs
Looking forward too seeing the pics and learning the date on the cam Micah.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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sketchy!
still wondering why the community hasn't heard from CCH about it. Even a "hey, not sure what's happening, but we're on it" would make me feel a lot better...
'Till I hear from CCH, definitely not picking up any Aliens
-A
Andanother: Can we have another positive statement from you? Please advise.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Makes me wonder if the person who reported the original failure isn't coming forward w/ their units b/c they've got their own people looking into the matter?
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Wow. These guys just love to shoot themselves in the foot don't they? If they had half a clue at all, they'd be hounding that guy to get them the cam already. saying "we asked him to send it. he hasn't sent it yet" is pretty f'in weak.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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"It's my understanding that the older models (5+ years) are OK."
-have any lasted that long? they funk so easily. That's why I never bought one.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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They don't make aliens in the sizes you would want anyways Jaybro.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I keep coming back to the seeming non existence of documented and monitored brazing procedures.
A joint that was improperly quenched (as has been mentioned previously to have happened) may easily pass a straight line pull test in a gig and be seriously weakened if loaded on an angle or flexed repeatedly. It's the quenching of the wire that may be the problem if they are failing in that mode rather than the joint pulling apart.
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andanother
climber
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Wow, Lambone. That's a lot of aliens!
You will be missed by many, I'm sure. But I just sent an email to the folks at the Darwin Awards with a link to this thread and a few others. They'll be keeping an eye on your, uh, "progress".
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Howie
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
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I too would be very interested in the brazing procedure, as well as the tensile/strain testing procedure too.
I'm not excited about recalls that perform these sort of tests and return to the user. A tensile test is normally a relatively slow test. Not really representative of fall loading. Simulated fall tests should be fairly easy to set up for. Of course these cannot account for every situation but might be more representative than just a tensile test. Could these be computer simulated too I wonder?
Howie.
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andanother
climber
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TGT, that's a great point. There seem to be many great (and mindboggling) points that have brought up against CCH.
The problem is that the guy simply doesn't care. If he cared, he wouldn't keep making the sh#t.
So using science, logic, or rational thought is only going to make this ordeal even more frustrating. That's why I like to stick with the wise-ass comments.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oh, Shack, we all step out of our comfort zone from time to time; I led bachelor party @ the cat wall largley with borrowed aliens, they were the sh#t, for that. Would have bought them for aid, If I had a different wall/time intersect.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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I love my Aliens but they're going on sabbatical until I can test them with a funkness driven by a BIG hammer.
Mal
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tom brogan
Trad climber
san diego, ca
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There were a bunch of us over on the Res Wall on Sunday when that Alien came apart. I really can't understand how anyone can trust them ever again. I wouldn't use them if they were free! It doesn't matter that they are an awesome design if the manufacturing QC is bogus.
It is interesting to watch climbers' reactions (and mine as well) to such events. Everyone is just standing around shaking their heads like they had just witnessed something they felt deep in their core was impossible. A properly placed cam will keep you off the talus when things go south. Now we question that again.
Tom
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I'll always take an Alien (hybrid!) over most anything else in a thin placement, regardless of the recent problems CCH has had.
Then again, I am too old to freeclimb, so I only use them for aid. So, if one blows out, so what? The whole pitch is sketch. I pulled an ancient head on Tribal Rite, and three pieces below it, and swung to a stop on a yellow-green Alien.
The brazing process itself, using a 40-60% silver brazing alloy, is very reliable, when done correctly.
There is some, correctable, mfg defect, that is causing the Aliens to fail. I think that once CCH figures out what is causing the problems, the cams will be back to 100%, they way they used to be.
The number of things that can go wrong at the braze joint is relatively large, however:
too big a gap between the cable and the fitting (zero-0.003")
lubricated cable, instead of unlubricated (supplier f-tup?)
insufficient cleaning of the cable and fitting (see above)
improper heat cycle (too much localized heat, too fast)
no vent hole to ensure proper filling of the joint
insufficient flux (not likely, but possible)
oxidizing torch flame, instead of reducing torch flame
motion of the joint before solidification
I think that CCH will find out what went wrong, and then continue to produce good Alien cams.
I certainly hope they do, because in the sub-fingers to fat-fingers sizes, those are the best cams I've used.
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mpandy
Trad climber
Jackson Hole, WY
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It's my understanding (from a rumor) that CCH has stopped producing Aliens entirely and has sold the patent to Kong. What Kong does with it - for better or worse - remains to be seen....
Of course, this is an entirely unconfirmed rumor that I heard from a manager at a gear shop.....
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Andy,
I heard the same rumor a couple of months ago that Kong was in the process of trying to purchase CCH and had started discussions with them.
This was from a friend of mine who works for Black Diamond. I'll try to find out more.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Hey Mal - send them to Mussy. He's all rigged up in the back yard to pull test those suckers. Need to take mine over there and get 'em done.
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emac
Trad climber
New Hampshire
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I had my entire set of Alien cams tensile tested by CCH. Now, I have little concept of what exactly that means they did to the units, but it's given me confidence to continue using them. Like many have said, I try to make it a point not to "test" the strength of these, or any, unit at the cliffs, but when done, they've been solid. In fact, 2 weeks ago I took repeated falls on the two smalleest Aliens placed side-by-side in a less than ideal horizontal at the Gunks. On the 4th failed attempt (i.e. fall!) the tiniest tore out, but the next size still held. I don't think either of these pieces are ideal for lead falls, but placed in a horizontal, with the stem over a 90-degree edge, and fallen on several times, they worked great. I still believe Aliens have a place on a rack. Possibly not as an everyday set of cams, but there are places out there that nothing else I've found works so well (ridiculously pin scarred now-free routes in the Valley for one).
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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I have been using the Aliens for years and love all of them. I have all eight sizes (except the grey) and have personally fallen on every size, even the .33. I have taken up to 20' falls on them and took several 10' falls on the .33 and have never had a problem. When climbing hard trad they are almost mandatory to protect the thin stuff. It is kind of sketchy when you hear about pro failing but you need to take into consideration that 99.9 percent of them are fine. I'm sure many of you still won't use them but I think they're great.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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"but you need to take into consideration that 99.9 percent of them are fine."
I'm probably not the only one who isn't convinced the percentage of good ones is that high (not convinced it's not either), and simple claiming that 999 out of 1000 are fine doesn't make it so. Certainly most of them are fine. But an alarming number have broken.
I'm uncertain about widespread the problem is. Pretty confident in my Aliens, but I've only got a couple, and they're pretty old.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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Obviously that percentage is not absolute fact, but out of the thousands that are out there a very small percentage have failed. And I realize that isn't justification, 0% should ever fail but they are a great design and they're always on my rack.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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"...are almost mandatory..."
That's so far off. People have been climbing 'hard trad' for generations, long before Friends existed, let alone the relatively recent apparition of Aliens. Historical perspective - something every climber should try to have.
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andanother
climber
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Thanks Melissa. And keep in mind that those are the only ones that have been reported on the net.
Considering the big picture, only a very small percentage of climbers visit and post on internet forums. So who knows how many Aliens have failed on people.
In order to be fair, we should compile a similar list of legitmate-brand cams that have failed recently.
I took the time and compiled this list. It is a record of incidents of failure that have been reported on the net:
.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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Le_Bruce
"...are almost mandatory..."
That's so far off. People have been climbing 'hard trad' for generations, long before Friends existed, let alone the relatively recent apparition of Aliens. Historical perspective - something every climber should try to have.
The key word there is "ALMOST", and your historical perspective seems to be lacking since most of the 'hard trad' before friends was actually aid climbing with pins. Many of the hard trad routes that are climbed today would be extremely difficult if not impossible to protect without micro cams. Unless you think you can free a 5.12 or harder trad route while nailing pins and screwing up the rock in the process.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Andanother, google climbing cam defect.
Then you can update the list.
Edit: Without naming names, at least three other manufacturers have had quality control problems with cams. Two were with SCLDs and one with a passive camming device.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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why in the world would you "not name names"? is the rep of the manufacturer more valuable than the lives of your friends?
I'd like to hear what a knowledgeable third party thinks about Aliens (like maybe BDs test guys??). Is their (CCH) stuff really sh#t, or are the failures just statistical freaks. For better or worse I just (maybe 6 months back) dropped $250 or so for my first set of Aliens (4 offsets). Haven't used them yet but already more than once my partners have refused to climb with them. So what's the point of having them. Body weight only for my next solo???
Can I demand a refund?
When is someone who knows how to run a company going to buyout the design. It seems long overdue. Their passivity in the face of all these failures and all this bad rep is amazing. Are those guys just smoking stuff while their company craters?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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RockermIke et al:
The fatal flaw (no pun intended) with any "legitimate" company buying the Alien franchise is this: Aliens are a small quantity, labor intensive, niche market, high liability item. The math on them does not add up for a real company. I would not expect an industry leader buyout righting the ship known as Aliens any time soon.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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" ...most of the 'hard trad' before friends was actually aid climbing with pins. Many of the hard trad routes that are climbed today would be extremely difficult if not impossible to protect without micro cams. Unless you think you can free a 5.12 or harder trad route while nailing pins and screwing up the ..."
Actually a lot of climbers did remarkable clean ascents in the '70's. I recall when friends came out. Sure, cams are great, but don't take away from those who did well without.
The Pirate, in Idyllwild, is a solid 5.12 trad route. I led it clean in 1992 with a rack of stoppers.
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Most of these reports are hear-say.
How hard is it to post a picture?
Must be a little harder when you don't have one, or when you know it might point to user incompetence.
Aliens stick where other cams pop. Even with a few legitimate failures, I would venture they have stopped more accidents than they will ever create. Remember when TCU's hit the market? Everyone knew they were extremely dicey, but accepted the trade offs because there was nothing else going on. Who gives about QC when the cam doesn't even stay in the placement? Aliens worked so much better than anything else out there, and still do.
They're load testing them now, as they should. I suspect their insurance company, after the brazing fiasco, demanded industry stamps - who then demanded a quantitative QC process. All this seems recent, like in the last 12 months. I see the issues soon fading. Send in your cams to get load tested if that makes you feel better, then only buy ones with the test markings. Done.
JLP
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Fifth-hand spray I think here I think some time ago was that somebody who could have done it looked at doing a CCH buyout and found the whole thing to just be too much of cluster, like it wasn't even clear that there was an entity that could be bought that would guarantee rights to the IP and production. Malcolm?
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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99.9% fine is very poor, imho.
if air travel were 99.99% fine, would you feel good about it?
think about it...
considering there are 30000 commercial flights in the US per day, 99.99% safe = 3 major jetliner crashes per day. not fine.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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Ksolem,
Of coarse hard routes were climbed in the 70's, I never said they weren't. But not all routes can be climbed with just a set of stoppers, you should know that as well as anyone. Just try leading the Optimater without cams or pretty much any Indian Creek route. Most would not be safely possible. (And I already know that "Super Crack of the Desert" was first lead on hexes, the key word is "most").
Cleo,
If your not comfortable with the cams then don't use them, it doesn't matter to me. All I'm trying to say is that they are a great design, so get them pull tested if you want and then get out and climb.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Knob Central
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Steven, no one would deny that it is easier to climb many hard climbs with cams than it is with hexes and stoppers. But you said that it was almost impossible to do hard routes with Aliens. I know many, many people that climb 5.12/5.13 that don't (and won't) own Aliens. Also, I think you would be surprised at some of the routes that were done with hexes. Don't discount their usefulness just because you never learned to use them well.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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I'm not sure what is wrong with you people, but I have never said that hard routes cannot be climbed without cams (although some cannot). And I never said that you have to use Aliens to climb hard routes. So why don't you read my posts fully, word for word before you try and twist them around to make some useless point. (Example: "Many of the hard trad routes that are climbed today would be extremely difficult if not impossible to protect without MICRO CAMS.") In this statement there is no mention of Aliens being needed and nothing that states that you absolutly have to have cams to climb hard routes. And actually I do use hexes in specific climbing areas like Vedauwoo and the Needles in South Dakota where they work great. And where exactly did I discount the use of hexes?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I have an armload of these gizmos but they are an aid only piece of equipment in my estimation and not the mainstay of my free rack. It is not worth the stress while leading to carry protection that you do not entirely trust no matter the manufacturer. Aliens are simply too delicate in design and construction for general use in my opinion.
The reason that I finally bought some was one too many two cam placements looking at a broken leg. The narrowness of the overall unit allows for optimal cam contact in pin scars and shallow holes. The offset configuration also has big advantages. I have right and left handed sets of offset Aliens on my rack. You have to request a reverse configuration offset, it's not standard issue.
I hope CCH can work this out because these are valuable tools for the sort of climbing that gets me worked up!
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Knob Central
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Steven, which part of this did we misconstrue?
"I have been using the Aliens for years and love all of them. I have all eight sizes (except the grey) and have personally fallen on every size, even the .33. I have taken up to 20' falls on them and took several 10' falls on the .33 and have never had a problem. When climbing hard trad they are almost mandatory to protect the thin stuff."
You don't just mention cams here, you talk about Aliens being almost mandatory. Maybe this isn't what you meant, but it IS what you said.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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Exactly, "almost" meaning not completely, there is a difference between "almost manditory" and "manditory". And remember Aliens have been around a lot longer than "Zero Cams" and "C3's". There are other options out there now but that was not always the case.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I have found offset Aliens do be "mandetory" sometimes when trying to aid climb clean on Yos walls.
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dirtbagger
Ice climber
Australia
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ok so there has been all this discussions!
What is the conclusion?
I love my Aliens, (stick where nothing else will!)
But do I need to be worried? All mine are Tensile tested!
Russ, you have tested a few, right?
I would be very intersted in your experiences and opinion! What do you say, just User error or is there a problem we gotta look out for?
cheers for your feedback! A very confused Alien-lover.......*can one say that, without it sounding kinda wierd?*
dirtbagger
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Knob Central
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Yeah, but small tech friends and tcus have been around a lot longer than aliens. Having climbed hard for 35 years I have yet to see any reason to own aliens. The only reason I could ever see for owning them is for aid, especially with C3s out now.
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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right- and left-handed sets of offset aliens? i thought they were symmetrical . . .?
reminds me of the joke about the point being on the wrong side of the nail ("those nails are for the other side of the room"). but you sound serious.
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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what i meant was, if the smaller lobes are on the left, then if you turn it around, the smaller lobes are on the right. so i don't see what steve g. means by left-handed versus right-handed or reverse-configuration. presumably it's not the kind of reverse configuration you can achieve by turning the piece over. but then, what?
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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"reminds me of the joke about the point being on the wrong side of the nail ("those nails are for the other side of the room"). but you sound serious."
It reminded me of a joke about a merchant selling left-handed tea cups--by rotating them when the customer wasn't looking.
With Offset cams it isn't quite the same thing: depending on how you build them, a different lobe is at the end when you've got the small sides pointing in the same direction. Not sure if that's worth getting a mirror-image set over or not. I have no offset cams at all, regular or reversed.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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G_Gnome,
Well if you ever decide to try the Aliens I think you would be pretty happy with how well they work. I have used most of the other small cams out there and the Aliens are still my favorite. The C3's are nice but what's up with the hard to pull trigger on the larger sizes and the price?
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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i see... so, for instance, placed in a vertical pin scar with the small lobes further in the crack, one small lobe will be a tad deeper than the other (if the cam is built like the one in the picture, that will always be the small lobe on the right). and one big lobe will be deeper than the other (in this case always the left one). and that could matter if the scar is deeper on the left or on the right or if the edge is more solid on the left or right.
thanks for clarifying!
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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Murcy,
Have you ever tried to place a cam and it just didn't fit quite right. So you flip the cam over and then it drops right in nice and secure. Thats why they make the right and left offsets.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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The price on the C3s is for them not breaking in a fall.
Go figure.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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Oh, so that means the C4's are more likely to break?
Nice Try.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Your kidding right?
Please tell me that comment was a joke.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Knob Central
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Of course, if you can pro-deal the C3s they just aren't that expensive. But then the same goes for all climbing gear. ;)
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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Of course I'm kidding, I think it's safe to say that the C4's are probably the most bomber cams you can buy.
You want to hook me up with some pro-dealed C3's G_gnome? I'd gladly take you up on that offer :)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Of course I'm kidding, I think it's safe to say that the C4's are probably the most bomber cams you can buy."
I personally find Camalots of all generations including the C4 to be one of the weaker cams you can buy - speaking as a Metolius user, there isn't much comparison when talking about cams being "bomber".
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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That's funny healyje, I can't stand the way Metolius cams walk out of the crack.
Your spine will break well before your C4 does.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
|
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"I personally find Camalots of all generations including the C4 to be one of the weaker cams you can buy"
Wow, now I've heard it all!
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davidji
Social climber
CA
|
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"I can't stand the way Metolius cams walk out of the crack."
Metolius TCUs don't seem to walk at all (just pivot back & forth on the center lobe). But they pop out easily when undercammed.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Yeah, that pivot scares the living crap out of me.
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
|
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I must admit that even though I am firmly entrenched in the Alien camp, the fact that CCH hasn't posted up about exactly what is happening and what they are doing about it makes me think about alternatives.
healyje, were you kidding about Camalots? IMO they are at the very top of the list in terms of best overall cam on the market. Now that the C4s are so light, nothing else is even close.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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When cams decide to take a walk it is never the cam's fault. I've never had a Metolius cam 'walk' on me except for when I've slung them poorly followed by badgering them around as I passed - all in circumstances and placements any cam would have walked treated the same. Similarly, I've also never blown a TCU in a placement that wasn't so marginal any cam would have blown as well.
Now I like nice thumbloops as much as the next guy, but the business end of things is at the other end of the cam and nothing about the C4s has changed appreciably where they meet the rock. I do not like the design (thin axles), materials, the action, or the rattlely, flimsy feel of Camalots - never have.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Personally, I find that metolius TCUs just don't fit securely in as many places as my aliens. I started out with TCUs and migrated to aliens whe I found that my friends' aliens would have a secure feel in placements that the TCUs just didn't. Plus I really hate those u-stems.
To each his own, I guess; but I think calling C4's flimsy or unreliable is way off base.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
|
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well, since we are now griping about every cam, what is up with the metolius cam slings? Are theys still stitched down the length of the sling? I alwasy thought that was pretty dumb, made it stiff in a vertical alignment.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
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I didn't say they were unreliable - I said I don't like anything about them enough to rely on them.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Knob Central
|
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Boy, I have a hard time thinking of C4s as having a lousy action, or being rattlely, and feeling flimsy. I felt that way about the 1st two generations of Camalots but not the new ones. The only problem I had with generation 3 was that they weighed too much and I hated the thumb spot.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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"I do not like the design (thin axles), materials, the action, or the rattlely, flimsy feel of Camalots"
"FLIMSY FEEL"! Maybe you have the Camalots confused with some other cam like the DMM's? Do you work for Metolius or something? Camalots are the most solid cam I have ever used or seen. They're action is the best out of any cam I have used and they are rated to take a fall in the fully open position like a stopper. Sorry but all of your reasons for not liking Camalots are the most rediculous thing's I have ever heard!!!
It's like telling someone that Yosemite granite is soft compaired to the Fisher Towers sandstone.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
|
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Just wondering if anyone has any new information about the recent breakages or inparticular photos. The lack of new concise information makes me wonder just how valid these new concerns are.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
|
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This is so funny it deserves a repost.
"I didn't say they were unreliable - I said I don't like anything about them enough to rely on them."
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toyon
climber
fort collins, co
|
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"...and I don't think the aliens are as bomber as I used to."
FINALLY, THE CRUX IS STATED.
i dont own aliens, and i don't care to read a tome of geeky postings to make my judgement call.
Perception rules, especially in capitalism. the buzz over the past year+ is enough to keep me away from buying. If the company isn't doing serious damage control by the end of summer, i'm writing them off, naysayers or not.
-st
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BadInfluence
Mountain climber
Dak side
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cold braze joint. i wonder if this cam was quenched also.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
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Gang,
I was at the Splitter camp last week and although I didn't personally see the blown Alien, I did hear the reports and see the photos. Don't know why Micah or the owner of the cam hasn't posted anythiing but I'll see Micah tonight and see what's up. We'll be off the grid until Monday night so don't freak if nothing is posted before then.
Bummer,
Mal
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WBraun
climber
|
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Hah very interesting.
I've had these kind of failures in electronics and found them purely by accident.
This is how it goes.
When the solder runs out of the connector during assembly into the exposed wire it becomes very stiff there. The wire loses its flexibility and weakens with vibration and shock in certain high stress connections and eventually fails.
Aliens are brazed and at the joint where the wire enters the sleeve would be very stiff and susceptible to breaking if there is a radical bend there in case of a fall.
Just a wild guess from looking at the photos jimi.
I could be full of sh'it too ......
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Greg Barnes
climber
|
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Is it just me, or does that close-up of the failure point make it look like the cable was not even inserted in the head?
5th photo above
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
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That was exactly my thought!
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jsb
Trad climber
Palo Alto, CA
|
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noooooo! not the yellow! i thought we had something special.
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KevinC
Ice climber
Colorado
|
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I'm no expert (nor do I play one on TV), but this definitely does not look like a braze failure per se'. Looks to me like the cable did indeed break at the base of the head - perhaps due to lack of flexibility per WBraun's suggestion? If I had to guess, I'd say the edge of the head was even with the edge of the flake which put a big transverse force on the cable. I feel a bit better about my Aliens after seeing the pic but will await an official verdict.
Regardless I hope P&B has a quick and successful recovery.
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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1) It appears this is a newer cam that was likely pull tested.
2) It appears the cable was not fully inserted into the axle coupling during brazing. I can say this with about 95% certainty. I would get the other 5% with a closer shot of the break on both sides. My high level of certainty arrises from how strong I know SS is, the lack of indications of strain, and a lack of other visible damage to the componants.
3) My ~5% of uncertainty covers the possibility it was bent and broken over an edge. I would expect to see strands of necked SS at the break piont, as well as significant damage to other componants, as it would take a great deal of stress to do this. I don't see that, however, from the posted pix. In fact, the cam, lobes, etc, look new. Maybe a closer shot would reveal something.
4) This was almost certainly not a brazing failure.
Scary..!
If I worked at CCH, I would create a QC process/fixture that checked the finish length of the brazed assy. This one, no doubt, was a little on the long side.
Checking the lengths of my Aliens now.
JLP.
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billiebob
Trad climber
NY
|
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This sucks. The photo of the head really makes it look like there was no failure of the cable. It looks as if it was barely inserted into the head. I agree with the above poster; the cams look practically new. This must have failed under a really low load.
Unless there is are some better photos, I guess we'll never know. What a great feeling!
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dirtbagger
Ice climber
Australia
|
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so now what? I love my yellow Aliens! Got doubles on yellow & red! My little helpers where seem to magically fit everywhere!
can i still trust them? Or never use them as pro where failure would result in a ground fall????
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Pic code from above fixed. From these, it does look like the cable just wasn't inserted far enough. Kinda weird, you'd think whoever was brazing them would be putting them in a jig that would prevent this.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
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Nothing I can see about the placement or the hardware appears consistent with the "bent over an edge" hypothesis -- looks more like it failed without trauma in a textbook straight pull.
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KevinC
Ice climber
Colorado
|
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Yabut, the end of the cable isn't a smooth square cut as one would expect if the prepared end was simply not pushed far enough into the head before brazing and then pulled out. The cable end is clearly ragged.
Also, though I agree that overall the cam lobes appear nearly new, there are several pretty deep gouges in them which would imply a fairly significant load (from the fall in question?).
I don't believe any firm conclusions are possible (other than it not being a brazing failure) until a materials engineer has a close look at it and other analyses can be performed.
Alien fans see cable breakage under high load, Alien foes see cable pull-out under low load.
How long was the fall prior to the Alien being loaded anyway? I don't recall seeing that anywhere. That would allow at least a rudimentary calculation of the load the piece did or would have experienced.
Hopefully we'll get a real, professional analysis.
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Kevin - you're looking at ragged braze metal, not cable. I would expect, and I see, a 45 degree angle, consistant with some torque being applied with the load. I would expect the torque to be coming from the twists in the cable, as it was loaded. If that thing failed from a straight pull, there would be some obvious fraying, necking of the SS, and much more overall destruction of the cam and cable. Also, the fall would have had to be incredibly long and hard. However, looks new to me.
Wonder if it was the same brazer as last time?
I have the same came with the same date on my rack. Just got it a couple weeks ago. Hmm...what to do with it...
JLP
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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"Also, though I agree that overall the cam lobes appear nearly new, there are several pretty deep gouges in them which would imply a fairly significant load (from the fall in question?). "
Aliens are soft. I got much deeper grooves in my red alien on a 3' winger about 15' out. A buddy took a 4' winger on my yellow and got much deeper indentations than that, also about 12-15' out if I remember right. Those look like what happened to my fresh offset aliens from bounce testing the first time out.
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m2j1s
Trad climber
boulder, co
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I'm curious, has anyone contacted CCH and asked when they expect to announce the situation? I know they have been pretty bad at contacting the public in the past, hopefully they will improve in that area. Also, does anyone know if falling on alien cams weakens the brazing at all? For example, is it logical to test these cams by aid bouncing or taking small whippers on them, or will that weaken the brazing? (this situation sucks for those of us who's entire small rack is aliens..) and by the sound of it, are the cable wires inserted into the cam head by hand? on cch's website it says everything is computerized, but that would mean every alien is subject to this issue.. kinda a scary situation, and also scary that if it was a person brazing the head on, that they would be careless enough to do this, especially when people depend on these devices with their life. hmmmm i just wonder how many other aliens are similar to this one, but just havnt taken that one fall yet.
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Aww...sh#t. I have not checked in on this thread in awhile. Those photos make me sort of queasy... Any diehard (no pun intended) CCH fans want to buy one green and one yellow Alien?
Brian
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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m2j1s- "I'm curious, has anyone contacted CCH and asked when they expect to announce the situation? I know they have been pretty bad at contacting the public in the past, hopefully they will improve in that area."
Yeah right. My guess is they're gonna keep their head down hoping this will blow over, just like seemed to do last time. Maybe another weak promise to implement ISO 9000 processes, just like they promised over a year ago. This still appears to be little more than a one-line promise on the internet (wanna hang your ass on that?) For promise see: http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/recall/faq.html
Bottom line: they deserve to lose the business at this point. Even disregarding new failures, not fulfilling the promises made after the recall is weak beyond forgiveness. Now if they have secretly implemented the ISO 9000 and not announced it, I'll be happy to eat my words and publicly apologize. But I have very little fear that will be necessary.
I liked Aliens, but they killed it for me with their handling of these issues. I've yet to see anything from them that convinces me that they even give a sh#t that people depend on their gear. It's not like they're manufacturing spatulas, but that seems like the level of their commitment. Maybe they should start making bongs (not the kind Yvon made) or something like that so when they can't be bothered to do it right, nobody's life is on the line.
--->Bob
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andanother
climber
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I must say I am thoroughly impressed with the timely and professional response this has received from CCH. I bet the head ostrich at CCH buried his head in the sand as quickly as possible back on april 20th, and apparently it is still buried.
That is one fine, reputable company they are running over at CCH.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Cross-post from RC.com...
-------------------------------------
The cam stem did not "break over an edge" and this is not an example of the previous "brazing failure" which was the subject of the recall. This is a new failure modality likely resulting from failing to check to see if the stem was still really seated down in the shaft before brazing. It was clearly only inserted a a couple of millimeters at the time of the brazing at best.
And that isn't the bad news. To be honest, manufacturing errors happen, what is sad in this case is that it is fairly indicative that all new cams are not being pull/tensile tested before shipping. I find it incredibly hard to belive this cam would ever have passed any such a test.
Mistakes, even recalls happen, but for a cam stamped '307' to fail after the miscues of the past two years, well - there really is nothing whatsoever left to say - the defective cams speak for themselves. It is clear at this point that self-help is not the answer to the woes besetting CCH. If you're going to use Aliens then the responsibility has now officially passed on to you. And if I was you (and I am for these purposes) I'd do just what Maldaly said he was going to do - get a hammer and funkness and do your own damn testing. Get on'em or get down.
[ Edit: Oh, and the quality of the cut used to cut the stem cable to length leaves a lot to be desired as well. Looks like a raggedy affair and I can only imagine what tool was used to produce it. If it had been a clean cut it is possible the braze job wouldn't have held up to handling of any kind at all and would have been detected at the time of the brazing. ]
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m2j1s
Trad climber
boulder, co
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10$? i'd go 18$ + shipping for all those 'probly defective' aliens out there! just pm me :)
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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I've got about 10 aliens up for bidding... All pre-dimpled.
$18 so far... anything higher?
-Fear
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WBraun
climber
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Has anyone x-rayed the stem to see if what healyje said is true?
Are you 100% sure healyje?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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About the comments that the cable was not fully inserted prior to brazing....
I sent an E-mail to CCH asking that they measure the length of the post-failure cable and then compare it to the manufacturing specification for the length of the cable before it is inserted into the socket and brazed. Seems like a simple check to perform.
Bruce
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I've put flexible 7x19 cable with really fine wires, like that used for the Aliens, into tight fittings and brazed them. And guess what? Sticking that type of cable into a tight hole can be a real PITA. First of all, when you cut it, even with a good v-notch cutter, the wires tend to fray out. Even if the cut is very clean, if one of the wires snags going in, and bends back, the cable can get stuck and feel like it's seated, when it's not.
And it's nearly impossible to taper the end of that type of cable on a grinder first, so it goes in reliably.
I finally figured out that I had to braze the tip of the cable first to solidify it, grind a taper, and then stick it in the hole. Actually, I used to braze the cable in the middle, cut through the solidified section, and get two tips, ready for grinding and inserting.
A 1x19 cable has thicker wires, which can be tapered on a grinder and inserted quite easily. But, it's not flexible enough for the Alien design. Most of the U-cable cam designs I've seen use 1x19 cable, though.
CCH could use a vent hole for that joint, which would allow probing to ensure the cable is fully seated in the fitting. Or braze the cable tip first.
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jsb
Trad climber
Palo Alto, CA
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well, at least cch has put something resembling announcement on their website... http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/alien_news.html.
two points of interest:
1) they recognize one of the two recent accidents that has taken place (the one corresponding to the pics we've seen).
2) they claim that ALL cams dated after jan 1, 2006 have been tensile tested to 1750 lbs (7.8 kN) or 2400 lbs (10.7 kN) depending on size.
personally, i used to be a huge fan... but now i feel cheated. i might use my aliens again when i finally learn to aid climb, but only so i can thrash the crap out of them.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Werner, am I 100% sure? No, I don't have the pieces in my hand.
But I find it to be a damn peculiar state for the stem cable end to be in if the cable broke/cut in a fall. Look at the pieces below. If it 'broke', it did so inside the braze without damaging the outer ring of the shoulder of brazing around the stem cable. That would imply it didn't 'break' either over an edge or by being bent much off the axis of straight in-line with the stem. The implication of that was that the cable snapped under an straight, in-line load very similar to a pull test. I find that incredibly unlikely.
I also note from the photos that the 'crater' in the braze is not dissimilar in shape from the end of the wire. And last, I find it utterly amazing not a single cable strand broke of in such a manner as to leave a strand or two sticking out of the head. Instead, all I see are what look like pits that could very much be the indentations made by the strand ends of the stem cable as it is shown.
Again, I'm not absolutely certain, but it is an amazing break if that is truly what it is...
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KevinC
Ice climber
Colorado
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Again, yabut. Looking at the head, it appears that the failure point is *outside* the head. If the failure occured as suggested, this would require that the cable wasn't inserted AT ALL prior to brazing. THAT would be a hard mistake to miss and a hard braze to make.
Not saying that this isn't a new problem, just that we don't know what it is yet and need a professional opinion.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dumb question:
When did they change trigger styles on the yellow? I wanty.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Tend to agree with Werner. This doesn't look like a problem from minimal insertion or lousy brazing. Healyje's arguments are non-persuasive based on the photos.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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I have newer (rope sheath instead of wire braid) green & yellow aliens with date code of 606 - I assume this means mfg date of June '06. I have placed and yarded on them, but no falls.
They are not marked 'tensile tested', unlike the three made in '05 I sent in for testing after they were returned from CCH. I called up CCH and asked about the new ones - near the base of the stem they have the letter "L" stamped. This apparently is Dave's middle initial, and indicates that he brazed them personally, so these should have been tensile tested.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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Healyje,
I think the braze is the reason there are no frayed wires. The braze would make that section of the cable almost solid which would explain the clean looking break. I would like to know if this was the first fall on the cam?
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ramonjuan
climber
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Another way to tell if the cable broke at the male/female joint is to prep the female end and acid etch it. This would reveal if any cable strands remain in the braze material. On another note some people have said that manufacturing errors can be made and i agree with this. But there is deffinatly a major problem with CCH's quality control process. I mean you don't see cams made by other manufacturers failing at the brazed cable joint. I am a third party welding inspector and have worked in many different industries but have never had the chance to deal with a situation like this. But i do know the fundamentals of joining metals and there are quite a few things that can go wrong along the way when you are trying to get a quality product. In my work i have had the chance to visit hundreds of different welding operations and have come to the conclusion that if the person on the shop floor doing the work has not been educated in what they are doing and can fully grasp the theorys behind the process being used then you are going to have problems. Just because a company like CCH has quality control procedures written down somewhere in the office does not mean that everybody involved with the work is
fully versed and understands why the procedures are set in place. I have no doubt that the procedure for making the brazed cable joint is well written and engineered properly. It's just a case of not following the procedure on the shop floor. You would be surprised what can go wrong especially when you try to increase production and outsource an important part of the manufacturing process. That's why i have a job. From what i can tell CCH makes a half ass attempt at quality and it shows in theyre product.
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Folks,
It would take way more force than ANY climbing fall can generate to snap that piece of SS cable in pure tension - and there would be a mess of distorted and frayed metal to look at in these photos. As for a bending type failure, show me how it happened and why nothing else was damaged, not to mention where the bending force even came from and why the rest of the cable, beyond the brazing even, remained straight. Fatigue? The cam was new, and again, there are no bends in the cable.
Werner is thinking about Al or low grade plated Cu on a ckt board. This does not apply here.
The cable was clearly not inserted into the hole.
JLP
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Back in 2003 I was climbing at Jtree and Red Rocks with a guy named Sean who worked at a lodge up near Mammut. Part of his crew from the lodge joined up a bit into it. One was a former CCH employee. His description of the owner was pretty sketch. He had a good opinion of the end product, as the owner was purported to hand inspect every alien personally before it went out the door.
My favorite story as about the meth head. He was the best assembler they had, he'd crank out 50 cams a day, compared to only about 20 a piece for most of the crew. The meth head got laid off because he kept passing out at work.
There were other stories too, but that one sticks in my head the most.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I stand by my analysis of the photos. I would be stunned if this cable broke in tension and there is a remnant "end" of the cable embedded in the head socket. That would imply a defect in the SS cable material itself - hardly CCH's problem if it were true or one they would be very hard pressed to detect. I don't buy it for a moment.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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what years did the meth head work there ? i'd like to think all my old aliens were made by some meth-addled dude...
foo. this sucks. i have four old aliens and wanted to get some more...now i don't know what to think...
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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The dude I was chatting with would have worked there no later than 2002, so probably somewhere in the 2000-2002 era.
According to this guy, the meth head, while sketch, actually did excellent work.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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I've gotta say, that I tend to be on the side of the fence saying that this is no cable break. Get real people. That cable was obviously not seated well, AT ALL, and pulled out of the braze. If that cable snapped, there would be damage to another piece of the cam, not to mention TONS of frayed wire everywhere. Especially with where the "break" is. How can you explain a break there without damage to the rest of the cam? Mainly though, cable doesn't break clean like that. It's difficult to even cut it clean like that without frayed ends.
Common sense shows this was a pull, rahter than a break.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Hi gang,
Here are the photos of the braze failure that Micah Dash witnessed. This happened at the Reservoir Wall (IC) on 4/29. The climber wasn't hurt because he had another cam in about 2 feet down. There was about 50' of rope out when he fell. We may not hear from the owner of the cam. He was, according to Micah, "some 'euro dude".
Be safe out there...
Mal
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Mal...Thanks! Micah said it was about "six months old"...was that based on the date stamp or when the person bought it? I'm curious if this one was supposed to be pull tested and was dimple free or was a recalled item that didn't get recalled.
...sorry if this was explained elsewhere and I missed it.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Interesting that the cable end in Mal's pictures is capped, while the one shown previously is not...
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Kris: that "cap" is probably just the solder that formed from the neck of the insert area. Maybe knott, and only the CCH hairdresser knows for sure.
as for the "no wires showing" on the other break.... once the cable is heated and soldered, the wires are basically gone as the cable has now become a solid non-stranded unit. So the break may look like the cable was not inserted all the way, but it may just be a break at the union also. Suppose you could drill into the neck to find strands etc...
Scary to say the least.... I'd love to really find out what happened in these cases.... speculation is fun and all, but it's nothing like getting the pure dope on stuff like this.
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Murf
climber
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Without pushing the "conspiracy" buttons too hard...
I seem to remember when the recall notice when online, it took 4-5 days because the webmaster was on vacation or some such.
Turns out they've improved dramatically! Check out
http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/alien_news.html
On top of the news of the unverified cable break is a heartening story of the trigger bar on an alien saving the day! Doesn't quite push the cable break "below the fold" but it comes close.
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feelio Babar
Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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"On top of the news of the unverified cable break is a heartening story of the trigger bar on an alien saving the day!"
Kind of like admiring the chandeliers on the Titanic...no?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Wild. I saw exactly the same thing happen last year in Josh. A guy fell leading and his top piece, a small alien, pulled. Then, some distance further down it caught him, as it's trigger bar became wedged in the crack. Unfortunatley the climber suffered a badly compounded leg.
I cleaned the route after, and when I got to the guys high piece there it was: a small alien with the business end sticking out in the air, the trigger bar wedged tightly in the crack...!
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Murf
climber
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An interesting post on rc.com:
Most of the newer aliens I have are already stamped 'tested', except for two. I phoned up CCH about this and Dave called my attention to the letter L stamped on the stems. This apparently indicates that he brazed these units personally, and that they had been tested.
I also have a red alien which was dimpled, and sent back for recall. They returned it with a tag which said 'tested to 1800lbs'.
So you have a dimpled returned alien, and not all tested cams are marked tensile tested.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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So you have a dimpled returned alien
It is no longer dimpled - they repaired it.
not all tested cams are marked tensile tested.
This appears to be the case. Perhaps I should have insisted on sending them back for the stamp ? It was mainly an item of curiosity, since I'd already bounce-tested these guys myself.
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Murf
climber
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So the dimpled alien came back repaired in what way? Is the head still dimpled?
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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No, the head is not dimpled anymore. The complete text of the tag is "New main cable tested to 1800 lbs".
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