Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 265 of total 265 in this topic |
LittleCotton-er
Ice climber
provo
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 1, 2007 - 05:40pm PT
|
not to be stirring up a mess, ok i am, but i have to call some bullshit when i see it. i just saw the link of the so called near boltless ascent to the summit of cerro torre this season. hardly. i just got home from a season of climbing in patagonia, where i might add that we climbed st exupery and lots of boulders(nothing too serious), but i got to witness some sh#t go down in the south! it all started when josh wharton and zack smith(i dont know either) came to chop the compressor route on cerro torre. word spread of this event like wildfire, but ironically enough, not to the others wanting to climb the torre! so they went up with a crowbar and bolt snippers to "remove" the route. they were overwhelmed with the amount of work required to do this, so they went up another time with some different gear or something. the alpinist article says they used no bolts except the final few to the summit. bullsh#t. they used all of the belay bolt stations on the ascent and descent, and they NEVER REACHED THE SUMMIT!!!! the summit of cerro torre is the final, crux, summit mushroom that has shut down many competent parties from making the top. and all of these people, including the liar himself maistri, admitted they never reached the summit. how come this detail slipped in this article? or the fact they used many belay bolts throughout the route? let me state something right now. i have super respect to these young guys and others like them that are pushing it farther than all of us old dads ever thought possible. but there needs to be some truth in spray- this is some bad spray- and no one knows.
anyway, to the juicy stuff. so when josh and zack got down from their first attempt, an american climber named steve snieder from yosemite got super pissed when he heard they were trying to chop the route a few pitches above him as he climbed it with his partner. when steve got down he flew off the handle and verbally chewed joshes ass hard. he also collapsed their tent at base camp to show them he was pissed for them wanting to erase the route he was climbing. so when bean bowers heard of all this, he found steve and assulted him, roughing him up and throwing him to the ground. word has it steve had to go to the hospital for xrays and was in a sling for a few days. as bean hit him he said, dont f*#k with my friends in my town!
so here is the question. does violence deserve to be brought in by a third party? shoult it ever be introduced? was the american team in over their forien heads to try to chop the route? should steve had approached them more calmly? should the americans have told the other compressor climbers that they were chopping the route as they climbed it, or better yet, before the fifteen climbers went for the good weather window? or how about truth in reporting.
oh, and by the way, a large meeting of about 80 climbers gathered after a film to discuss the bolt chopping matter. all of the argentine climbers(the locals) and 90% of all who attended voted that the route should stay, or at least be delt with by local climbers when the time was right. but not now.
so i leave you supertopo-ers to post away and debate this one. all opions are valid, and lets get this one good!
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
Is this the route, about 3/4 of which was climbed in 1968 by Haston, Burke, Boysen and Crew, without bolts?
|
|
andanother
climber
|
|
could we get some spaces and paragraphs in there? I don't what's going on.
|
|
snooky
climber
|
|
Sounds like Bachar syndrome again.
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Hell
|
|
C- for punctuation
C- for spelling
C- for grammer
And that's being generous
|
|
Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
|
Ahh, but that's some salacious gossip though!
Sounds like a whole catalog of bad behavior.
|
|
piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
|
|
LittleCotton-er,
It's hard to know if this is just a troll... especially since you talk so much sh#t on these people and you don't sign your real name.
If it is true then everyone involved seems to have done something lame. In order of lameness... starting with the most lame... I would go with...
1. Physically attacking someone and sending them to the hospital.
2. Chopping the compressor route.
3. Messing with other people's equipment to show them you're pissed off.
Again though, who are you LittleCotton-er?
Can anyone else confirm this?
Brad
|
|
G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
|
|
Hmmmm, sounds fun. I don't think it is ever warranted to hit somebody, especially if you are brought in only to be a thug. That said, sounds like all the people involved were wanks, but I can understand the other climbers getting wigged if bolts that they thought were there were being pulled in front of them without proper notice. The only proper notice I can think of would be a giant note at the base telling all that the vandalism is underway. Besides, who the hell do they think they are to chop in Pati?
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
|
|
This is the part I don't get:
steve got super pissed when he he flew off the hospital for xrays and ass hard. he was in a sling for a few pitches above handle and the roughing to go to chop them he was pissed their first attempt, an american climbed it with my town! o the hospital for the juicy stuff. so when bean bowers he was climber named steve and assulted him up and zack got super pissed for xrays and was it steve and verbally chewed josh and verbally chewed joshes above had to them he climbed it steve and zack got down fro
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
What Russ said.
Truly Little Cotten, its not like you have to rush to get an opening post in. While I'm not a stickler for spelling and grammar a little effort at presenting a cohesive user friendly statement would likely get you a better result.
Or at least engage a better response as deciphering your statement requires substantial effort.
|
|
beefy
Trad climber
Adelaide, Australia
|
|
I wouldnt say its a typical season down in patagonia. I was there in january for a few weeks this year (4th time). I've only ever experienced bad weather (some good) and good people down there. It's sad to hear that clashes have occurred between climbers down there.
Josh, Zack and Steve s are all exceptional climbers. all nice guys too which makes this a litlle more disturbing.
Regarding the compressor route. haven't done it but would like to climb the torre one day by that route or some other.
Regardless of anyones view, there is apparently some pretty hard mandatory climbing on the compressor route between the bolts. It seems a little pointless to chop the bolts on the compressor route after many climbers have climbed (and probably more importantly descended) that way.
Maybe its best to make ethical statements in ways that wont affect others' safety or dreams. Not everyone climbing down there is elite. Climbing the existing route doesnt affect anyone else. If you are a purist, you dont have to climb it that way. as greg c says. the most important thing is "to fight the good fight." not each other!
hasta luego
Rob
|
|
ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
|
|
I would think choppin the Corn presser Route would piss alot of folks off , indeed.
Why didn't Bridwell chop it?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Bridwell needed the bolts to get to the top.
A lot of what Little Cotton-er said is true.
How would I know? My source was sitting right next to me a half hour ago who was there.
|
|
caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
|
|
well, I was planning to chop the Nose next week. You guys have your notice.
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
It was hard to get too upset from littlecottonwooders post. But Werner said most of it was true.
It would seem to me that if someone were going to go to that much effort to erase something that infamous then the erasers should at least be upfront and honest and take credit for their actions.
The other thing I am seeing is a lack of respect for the history. OK, so maybe we shouldnt respect the way the compressor route was put in. But back when it was done it was really out there. Not only was the equipment different, but the MIND-SET was different. I dont think many young guns can appreciate that the limits of today are only where they are because of the limits that others have pushed through...
|
|
Erik of Oakland
Gym climber
Oakland
|
|
"don't f*#k with my friends in my town"
just last week I said almost exactly the same thing: "don't f*#k with my friends in my gym" -- weird
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Riley, that guy is just short of painful to read. Forums benefit from efforts to communicate clearly.
But that said, I would refer you to a letter I wrote to one of the rag editors at the height of the trad wars where I noted in a similar vein how the world was going to hell and people bickering how others should establish routes amounted to rearranging deck chairs on the Titannic.
|
|
BadInfluence
Mountain climber
Dak side
|
|
wow that's some serious S going down. i like to throw down i wish i was hanging w/ Steve S. that day, me and Bean would have a Thriller at the Pillar.
These bolts are a part of History just like the compressor hanging. egos are getting pretty high Josh & Zack if you take it upon yourself to chop a route especially compressor route. you 2 should feel lucky just to be down at such a rad place.
|
|
ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
|
|
So...are these guys gonna chop the bolts on the Nose next?
Agree with Bad , egoes gettin too big.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
Imagine that?! Coming to fisticuffs. Don't I remember reading that back in the day, a certain member of our little forum Mr. C. was said to sucker-punch Mr. B. in the Camp 4 parking lot?
Whatever became of that? Did they kiss and make up, or is it still unresolved?
Normally I don't care much about gossip, but since both C and B are members, they could state their case if they cared. I hope they have buried the hatchet, however.
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
Pete, you're such a dick. You don't want people saying sh#t about you, then why stir up 30 year old embellished gossip?
As I heard the story, Mr. B. did get punched by Mr. C., but it wasn't a sucker punch, and the boys grew into men and got over it.
Edit to say that I hope Steve is doing OK and heals up enough to enjoy the rest of his season there.
|
|
jackass
climber
|
|
Josh and Zach sound like they must work with the Bush Admin.
Go to another country, act like you own it, do whatever the hell you want.
Way lame. (if it is true...)
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
Well, I read about it in a climbing magazine, so it must be true.
This past fall, the leader of a team of three guys from Oregon put a bolt in the Hollow Flake. I was on Mammoth Terraces at the time and watched, listened, and took photos [available]. Steve Schneider had ropes fixed up Bermuda Dunes to the Hollow Flake. We told him about the bolt, and I got the feeling he removed it, although I am not certain. Anyone see a bolt in the Hollow Flake this fall?
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Seems pretty arrogant to chop the pioneering route on the Peak, particularly by a foreigner. I hate that stuff.
This would be a interesting tale to hear Shipoopi style.
Peace
karl
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
WTF
Is that true Pete?
I like Josh but if this is true it seems disrespectful.
Likewise on Hollow Flake. Thats GOTTA be a troll. I was gonna say "how could a party get to that point without appreciating what they were doing?" and then I remembered those stupid lame-butt fixed ropes to Heart and what gym climbing has done to traditional skills acquisition.
OMG this might be time to get out.
Man always kills the thing he loves.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
I kinda like Little Cotton-er's style of writing.... reminds me of someone else I know, who writes a similar style......ya gotta flow with it......put your feet up , tilt your head back, and float through it.......(and the story is very interesting.....)
|
|
Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
Pretty funny if true that they went up there with a crowbar to remove a 200 bolt route....I bet that lasted all of 5 minutes.
Reminds me when some locals chopped the ropes to Hart to have the Free Rider to themselves......we climbers get into so much trouble when it comes to ethics.
Can you imagine if you had trained for years to finally climb Cerro Torre, saved all you hard earned cash for the trip, waited for 3 weeks just to get on the route only to find out that the party before you chopped the bolts.....Get over it though because we can climb it without them (except for the anchors of course).
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
I just want to get a post in before this puppy blows past 100, cuz I ain't checking it after that.
cheers, and good trolling,
Mungeninetittook
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
I wasn't going to say it Todd.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
Yes you were, Ron......admit it.....you were......(And remember....me is a teacher.....I mean......Me am a teacher....)..I guess bad style is better than no style..(or is it?)
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
I don't personally know any of the players involved--but I'll take a shot at criticizing the situation, and in all honesty, sounds like "The Patagonia Perma-tourist Confrontation". I've always read that Bean Bowers list his "hometown" as Bozeman, MT--which I suppose COULD be true (but it's not, just living for a spell here does not make one a local, not even effing-close).
If Bean did say the remark about "not here in my town", then El Chalten can have all of those types that it wants--maybe, just maybe, Bean will (or has) claim(ed) El Chalten and Patagonia to be "his town" and drop the Bozeman monniker--who needs jerks like that associating themselves with "aw-shucksy" Montucky ?
Now the flip side would say that Bean was getting cowboy on the uppity Shipoopi--but I'll bet not. Let the Patagonia Turf Wars begin !
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
Cesare Maestri spoke in ft fun of all places - 99(?) at the after party for the horsetooth hang.
he said if you really wanted to put the bolts back in on that last pitch, we left the compressor...bring tools, gaskets, fuel...and go for it...
history. like it or not. it's there, right ?
is chopping them in this case like adding them after the fact...not your route, not right ? they are there, don't f'ing clip em if you wanna play that way...?
(ya know, i've wanted to try to start that compressor for 7 years now...edit to add - looks like it needs a regulator too though...)
|
|
Tim Lawrence
Trad climber
Madrid, Spain
|
|
Sounds like there are some stupid people on either side of the issue.
Let me share a situation that I encountered a couple months ago. I was at a local granite crag, here in Spain close to Madrid, and I stumbled across a beautiful splitter finger crack that someone had placed bolts every three feet. Granted to me this is like shitting in my Holy Grail. I left that day thinking I would be coming back soon to remove the bolts. But before I took any action, I confided what I was thinking to a couple of friends. Their opinion was unanimous. They politely told me that: 1.) I didn’t open the route, 2.) It’s not my home crag, 3.) Ethics are different here in this country, 4.) It’s not my country and neither is it my place to do anything about it. Imported ethics are not welcome.
I think it’s as simple as that.
Look, it doesn’t matter if your Josh whoever. Stupid behavior is inexcusable.
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
Unbefrickinlievable!
Now I am all for chopping bolts, but the COMPRESSOR ROUTE!?!?!
Seriously, WTF were they thinking??? Jerk and Zero started a shatstorm and they are going to suffer for it. Steve did nothing wrong in my opinion. Collapsing a tent at a base camp is nothing, it takes what, 5 minutes to set it back up? Get over it.
He should have pressed charges on this Bean Bowers jackass.
"don't mess with my friends", oh boy... Bring your stupid ass to the Valley and you'll find out how many friends Shipoopi has.
The overwhelming impression I am left with is that a lot of people in my generation did a piss poor job teaching their children how to be good humans.
Chopping the Compressor, man, I hope that follows them around forever, like WoS.
So the current theme of climbing news lately has been "Prideful jackass makes self into Pariah".
Losers...
|
|
itso
climber
|
|
"Let me share a situation that I encountered a couple months ago. I was at a local granite crag, here in Spain close to Madrid, and I stumbled across a beautiful splitter finger crack that someone had placed bolts every three feet. Granted to me this is like shitting in my Holy Grail. I left that day thinking I would be coming back soon to remove the bolts. But before I took any action, I confided what I was thinking to a couple of friends. Their opinion was unanimous. They politely told me that: 1.) I didn’t open the route, 2.) It’s not my home crag, 3.) Ethics are different here in this country, 4.) It’s not my country and neither is it my place to do anything about it. Imported ethics are not welcome".
Why chop the bolts? Isn't climbing about your personal experience and not about forcing others to experience climbing the way you think they should? Did you climb said crack on gear?
Two years ago I visited granite crag in Asia. Noticed bolted line that seemed protectable with gear. Tried to onsight it skipping all bolts but two (need some real big pieces). Local people were impressed by my effort and asked me to leave the gear to inspect the placements. The news even made it to a local website. I had it my way and everything was cool. What would've happened if instead I showed up with the crowbar? Where does this arrogance come from?
itso
|
|
steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
|
|
Riley said:
"You guys all suck picking on grammar and spelling."
I've always wondered how comeone can say that? The communications going on here is in written form. If someone can't lucidly present something here, then it should be perfectly okay to give them cr*p. The only thing we get when people say it's bad form to pick on someone who can't spell or write (on a written forum, no less) is a whole bunch of illegible junk. I direct you to the rest of the internet for examples. Think of it as folks raising the bar of expectation to urge people to communicate at a higher level.
Having said that, the way the original post was written, I just assumed it was someone for whom English is not a primary language.
CyaL8tr. PeeceOut!
(just kidding)
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Seems to me that there is a fair amount of spin in these reports (gee, you think?), and I suppose its best to reserve judgment until the facts are truly established.
Jumping to conclusions tends to compound misunderstandings.
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Hell
|
|
A compressor. How cool is that? Were the alleged protagonists planning on cutting that loose too?
|
|
Micah Dash
climber
|
|
Josh and Zack are two of the most talented and humble climbers I know. What they did was an example of skill, and vision. They decided not to take the easy wasy out. Integerity and honesty are hallmarks of Alpinism as they are hallmarks of Josh's and Zack's personality. Did they summit? I have no idea, they haven't even gotten off the palne yet. But, they have no reason to lie. Crux or not Josh and Zack both have the skills to summit the ice mushroom on Cerro Torre anybody who has climbed with them can atest to that.
Micah Dash
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Hell
|
|
As long as those boys don't shave their heads, get butterfly tatoos on their wrists and check in and out of rehab then all is well.
|
|
LittleCotton-er
Ice climber
provo
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2007 - 11:47am PT
|
first, im sorry for the english, but i am from another country, southamerican. but what i said was true, yes, written fast and angry. sorry. but the main points are valid for many. a forien climber in a country not his own, has no place to change things. maybe not all can climb 6c with bad or no protecion. anyway, they didnt summit from what i was told by another party climbing up there. and all belays were used. all of this, was lied about in alpinist article. so what i was one to open this case with bad english!
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
"a forien climber in a country not his own, has no place to change things."
what he said...
|
|
Neil
Gym climber
Here and there
|
|
Imagine the hubris it would take to decide you're the one to go out and erase a historic, world-famous route and then report it to the media. You must consider yourself alpinism's "chosen one".
It seems that an entact compressor route is more of a guiding light on what bad style is than an erased compressor route. On the continuum of "alpine bad style", it acts as the bookend at the end of the continuum.
The intention is good, but rather than chopping a classic, I think it would do more for the cause to send a new route in super sweet style.
Cheers
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Now I feel bad. That was very narrow minded of me LittleCottoner. I hope you will accept my sincere apologies.
Your communication skills are obviously far superior to my own and I look forward to your continued contributions. If there is anything I can do to make this right please contact me.
|
|
Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
|
|
"a forien climber in a country not his own, has no place to change things."
Nanda Devi comes to mind, but hey, who cares about something silly like that.
What I want to know is, how much was Josh's electric bill last year?
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
darnell - not sure i follow - are you referring to the tragic expedition ?
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
whoa...thank you, sorry for the drift...
|
|
maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
Just got off the phone with Donini who was in the middle of the frey.
No bolts were chopped.
Josh and Zack did not free the route they were trying to do.
The OP's post doesn't even touch on how juicy the scene actually was.
Neil's statement above speaks eloquently to the matter. The compressor route was installed by a failed, lying climber, so the question for the climbing community really is, "Is it better to leave the route standing as a monument poor alpine form or remove it to reveal the original beauty of one of the best and least attainable alpine summits on the planet?"
As Donini says, "The Compressor Route is the world's hardest Via Ferrata."
I love that guy.
Does Cerro Torre deserve to have a trade route on it that was put up in the poorest form imagineable? Should its historic status make it permanent? If you successfully climb the Compressor Route, have you really climbed Cerro Torre?
Mal
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
|
|
Not following ya there Rich. Electric bill?
Oh yeah, Al Gore.
yeah, so, when is someone going to fly to the Nanda Devi glacier and chop that nuke out of the ice? That would be a real act of vision, one that matters a bit more. We all live downstream.
|
|
jackass
climber
|
|
Thanks for clearing that up Mal... now, if you would please start producing some offset nuts, you could clear up that mess too!
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
well mal,
who makes the call? seems to me that whoever makes a call like that has ego and arrogance out the wazoo.
Who can claim to climb el cap fairly when they know just about every frickin thing there is to know? you gots your supertopo and you gots your rack, weather info.
the point is that one can take their "fair" means discussion a bit too far.
where is the line?
who decides?
while jim donini is certainly a guy with a valued opinion, is it really a via ferrata? for reals?
but then, freeing something wthout using the bolts gives one the right to get rid of the route that was established?
then of course we have something like the dihedral wall. where to free it required many bolts added to the original line?
the ethical conundrums of climbing are so f*#ked up these days. i am so freakin glad i dont live near a popular area. f*#k
and micah, i dont know your buds. did they want to chop that route? while your character evel is nice it sheds no lite on the sitrep at hand....
|
|
BadInfluence
Mountain climber
Dak side
|
|
That's a bunch of BS Micah, There are a ton of hardcore climbers that you don't know about, because they climb and simply that's all. They don't report their FFA's, they don't go around spraying about what they are going to do. which in Josh and Zack case they did spray but didn't complete.
WTF skill and vision, more like Bevis and Butthead mentality (or little rich brats) where they take it upon themselves to Erase History. Sure it's all cool if you can do a boltless aid ascent. I know some ruffians that will come down and onsight Free climb the Compressor route. They have the best ground up Lead heads around. You will never see them chop a bolt though most likely they won't clip it though.
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
ok -
1) now i'm confused...
2) i couldn't get on top of that thing with a helicopter...
3) this is still better than any of those political threads...
ears open, mouth shut,
-tom
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
|
|
Wharton:
"So for me the southeast ridge still needs some attention."
-Alpinist website
Little did we know what he meant by this...
I'll state an opinion:
-Climbing Cerro Torre by fair means: visionary, bold. Has also been done via several other, new, routes, which makes a bit more of a statement.
-Chopping 30-year old bolts: pointless, self-aggandizing puffery. Hopefully this part is not true.
|
|
quartziteflight
climber
|
|
Mal,
Great post man. It's nice to see something informative come out of this.
Food for thought:
Is it always prudent to kow tow to a local lack of ethics? It seems to me that traveling climbers have had a substantial impact on "local" ethics.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Mal, you're my friend but I gotta call you out on this. Its a slippery slope I'd rather not leave to monday morning quarterbacks even if they are masters of the game.
What would the art of many millenia look like if we all felt free to "correct" the creations of others?
|
|
LittleCotton-er
Ice climber
provo
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2007 - 01:10pm PT
|
piton ron, and others-
dont worry about judging my bad english, i am from elsewhere. no hard feelings or like that. but now i live in utah, and i have passports for my home country and america. i have known ethics in america and patagonia for a long time, so i get pissed when the truth is hidden under a bunch of hype spray. the two in question just want some exposure for something rad, but came up far short in the wrong way possible. i love the discusssion- it is what i wanted. for real climbers to know the real truth about the drama. for violence to come into this, is just stupid. bean does not own the town, nor do i, or you. all the locals have say there, and they say dont f*#k with it. if they want to come back and chop, is big problems for it.
|
|
the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
|
|
Apologies to Joe Walsh.
If you look at your reflection in an ice covered hill,
What you see is only on the verglas.
When you try to see the meaning, hidden underneath,
The reason for your motivation can be deceiving.
Patagonia has a rocky reputation
You can feel it in the distance the deeper down you stare.
From up above it's hard to see but you know when you're there.
On the bottom words are shallow.
On the surface bolts are cheap.
You can only judge the distance by the free fall of your pee.
In the eyes of the COMPRESSOR.
In the eyes of the Compressor,
Use the bolts to save your sorry hide.
You can't hide from the drill (of the Compressor)
Don't you even try.
In the drill of the Compressor
You can't tell a lie,
You cannot tell a lie (to the Compressor)
Strip you down to size,
Naked as the day that you were born,
Naked as the day that you were born.
(Tremendous guitar work)
Take all the trauma, drama, comments,
The guilt and doubt and shame
The what if's and if only's
The shackles and the chains
The violence and aggresion,
The pettiness and scorn,
The jealousy and hatred,
The tempest and discord,
AND GIVE IT UP!
|
|
Micah Dash
climber
|
|
Badinfluence: Nearly every day I go climbing I'm impressed by the level of skill and talent of the climbers around me. There are to many talented climbers to count these days.
But, I hate to tell ya, as far as climbing on hard and run-out terrain in the mountains, Josh and Zack are some of the best.
It's the duty of an Alpinst to report on their ascents and attempts.
For the record Rob; Zack and Josh didn't chop anything on the route.
Micah
|
|
mbb
climber
the slick
|
|
Who cares if they are good climbers, they still obviously went at this route for the hype (the proof of this is in the email reports on their progress to Climbing mag) and, believe it or not, even good climbers can be asswipes. The only reason they would want to chop a historical route like that is for publicity, and look, they got it, and they didn't even chop the route or make it to the top. Nice one guys!
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
I haven't climbed in Patagonia, and haven't yet received the new issue of Alpinist, which I gather has a piece about this. The information up thread is confusing, but it sounds like there was at least an attempt to remove some of the bolts placed on the southwest ridge of Cerro Torre by Cesare Maestri and party in 1970.
Whatever the climbers in question did or didn't do, and did and didn't say, needs to be clarified.
Does anyone know whether the climbers in question informed the relevant climbing communities, before the fact, of their intentions? Especially with the internet, it's not hard to tell the world "We plan to free climb the southwest ridge of Cerro Torre, and while doing so to remove all the bolts/the unneeded bolts", or whatever the plan was, and see where it goes.
Informed pre facto debate seems much preferable when it comes to adding or removing bolts from existing routes, however questionable the route may have been, and however righteous you may be.
The ethos of the climbing community local to the climb, and the views of those who created the route (if ascertainable), also seem critical. Some areas and countries are quite protective of their climbing resources; if you don't care for the prevailing ethos (no bolts in England; excessive bolts in France and Spain), we're lucky enough that we can climb elsewhere.
We need to have means to resolve these questions within the climbing community. A little less ego and frontier mentality might also help.
|
|
Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
|
|
I just wanted to see if this looked as ridiculous when I posted (& corrected) it.
>>>It's the duty of an Alpinist to report on their ascents and attempts.
Yup.
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Hell
|
|
Some people need to keep their hormones in check.
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
Mal posted: Does Cerro Torre deserve to have a trade route on it that was put up in the poorest form imagineable? Should its historic status make it permanent? If you successfully climb the Compressor Route, have you really climbed Cerro Torre?
Those are tough questions. It was done. It is a part of climbing history (arguably significant climbing history, for better or for worse).
Surely not the only line on that peak (especially now, with the ascents folks have made in the last several years, hugely proud ascents of their own historical accord).
Erase or remove it? I say no way.
Still pisses me off that someone chopped Beckey's route on Zeus in Taylor Creek...
Are bolt ladders poor style? Debatable. There's a ton of climbs that benefit from bolt ladders, rivets, hook holes, that otherwise wouldn't be "connectable" for mere mortals.
Should some summits only be available to the elite climbing community? At what cost? At what risk?
The whole arguement smacks of a tad bit of elitism. I'm an "average" climber, with average skills, jack of all trades, master of none. Should spectacular summits and positions be off limits to me 'cause I don't have the horsepower, skills, or am risk averse to certain types of climbing? Sure, if that's the only game in town. But, in this case, its not the only game in town, but, sounds like someone wants to take that option away. I don't agree with it.
Seems like there is virgin terrain 10 feet in either direction from the Compressor Route. Go do that. But messing with someone else's route, 'cause you don't agree with the style, that's bad form, methinks. Sure, something to be critical of. But, isn't time and effort better spent doing something of your own that is proud, rather than picking on, and possibly even erasing other folks' efforts? Seems petty. Especially for those born long after the deed was done.
This is a great topic that can apply across a TON of terrain...
-Brian in SLC
|
|
pc
climber
East of Seattle
|
|
Hmmm...
Did they chop or not?
Did they wanna chop but couldn't?
If peter piper chopped a chunk of patagonia compressor,
how many chunks of patagonia compressor did peter piper chop?
pc
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
I think it's weak to call the compressor route so lame when Maestri was the guy making real progress up there so long ago. If it was so easy why weren't other studs up there sending it back in the day? Harding used the Dolt cart and tons of fixed lines on the Nose and drilled a bolt ladder to the summit that could have been freed at 12b!
So I hear that bolts were chopped and bolts weren't chopped. If not, what was Shipoopi doing knocking down a tent and then getting knocked down. Folks sound like they are getting in contact with the players but things are gettting less clear, not more clear.
I definately don't think that Cerro Torre should bet pruned so that only elite climbers can do it (and escape from it) in good weather. It's dangerous enough as it is up there.
Of course, we could also cut down all the fixed lines on Everest and go knock all the fixed ladders into crevasses too.
Let's continue to try to get all sides of the story. Just the facts (plus spray and lies)
Peace
Karl
|
|
Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
|
|
I am waiting for Peter to pipe up before I draw a conclusion.
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
|
|
Re: this comment "they still obviously went at this route for the hype"--
Attempting to definitively state the motives of others is folly. It's hard enough to figure out one's own.
Mighty Hiker:
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP18/newswire-cerro-torre-compressor-wharton-smith
Micah-
Good to hear they didn't actually chop. Good to hear you stick up for your friends' character.
So Bean's made Chalten 'his' town for what, a year now? Two? Hopefully this localitis-nouveau, and its ugly symptoms, is a rumor as well.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
one of the freakin hilarious hings is that the alPENIS drivel says that athey climbed runout 5.10+.
wow, like that aint never been done b4.
micah, whats the story?
is alPENIS yankin our chain?
or are your buds out for PUBICITY?
which is it?
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
micah said,
"It's the duty of an Alpinst to report on their ascents and attempts."
KISS AND TELL RIGHT?
i dont know who the f*#k you are except for some stupid frickin substory in the new IC guide about not using tape being manly. is this along the same lines?
just curious...
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Maldaly: "The OP's post doesn't even touch on how juicy the scene actually was. "
What a tease...
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
|
|
Duty of a sponsored Alpinist, maybe.
Not so sure about those who have no one but themselves to answer to.
Anyhow, Hawkeye, you should back off of Micah a bit. He's not responsible for what his friends do, much less for what they're rumored to have done. All he's done is to speak up for their character, vision, and ability.
And maybe for the duty of people who don't pay for gear.
But who the f*ck he is, is someone who's willing to use his name on his posts to stick up for his buds. Not sure what this has to do with tape.
|
|
Mr.T
Big Wall climber
topanga
|
|
This is so great. Sounds kind of like Robbins going up to erase WOEML and deciding the climbing was difficult enough to warrant the bolts - these boys resorted to using the bolts because they couldn't get up it without them. So are all the bolts they didn't use "up for removal", but the ones they had to use "necessary"...? Ha Ha Ha. I love the idea of the removal of the compressor route's bolts (and compressor), the continued "cleaning" of el cap's trade routes, and Karl's (or anybody's) stripping of fixed lines and ladders on Everest.
I think we'll get to the point eventually where difficulty and purity in popular mountian regions has to be "created" by removing crap that others put there in the past. People will say that if you're looking for real adventure, go someplace else, and I agree - but there simply is only one Cerro Torre, Everest, and El Cap. Lot's of folks won't like it, because it's gonna be more difficult for them to get up the things, but let's keep'm clean!!!!!
|
|
wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
|
|
If chopping the bolts on the Compressor Route (whether it actually happened or not) is supposed to be some kind of statement, who is the intended audience? Or is it an attempt to keep Cerro Torre a summit to be had only by elite climbers. I remember reading Marc Twight lamenting the way in which pedestrian routes were going up in the Mt. Blanc massif, but I could never get past thinking that his motives were more about keeping average folks out of his playground than anything else.
I removed a bolt 20 years ago that had been placed on rappel, close to a crack on an obscure crag in Wyoming. In retrospect, my own motives for doing so were pretty dubious, and I cannot believe that I had enough time to obsess on something so insignificant. That's not to say that climbing is not important, or that the way in which we climb doesn't matter. It does. But come on, the Compressor Route has been in place for how many decades?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Ah right, Cool.
Gang wars, turf wars on crags and mountains. The objective dangers have become diversified. Bodyguards will be needed.
Riley can probably get a new job. Maybe even fattrad.
Just wait it should get even better?
I just had to add my own 2 cents worthless drivel to this thread.
|
|
LittleCotton-er
Ice climber
provo
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2007 - 03:37pm PT
|
you ask for facts, here is what i know for FACT
-they tried to remove the bolts, but it was too hard to do with the tools they had at the moment.
-they did not tell any of the climbers below them or in camp they were out to chop the route.
-steve took poles from their tent, put inside tent, and covered it nicely with some rokks.
-steve yelled at josh.
-bean assulted steve snieder from yosemite.
-they went back up and "summited" below the top, but chopped nothing i know of.
-they did not summit the mushroom. this came from three basque climbers behind them, and from steve s and dave t.
-they used all of the bolted belays and rappels on route, not just headwall of ascent.
-local climbers voted to keep route, and for local climbers to remain in lead for future decisons.argentines, not others, no matter how hard they climb.
-alpinist article is misleading and weak as sh#t.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
drivel upon drivel right werner?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
-they went back up and "summited" below the top,
What does that mean?
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
LittleCotton-er,
Thanks for the clarifications on the facts and for stating your sources. It was initially confusing, and this list makes more sense.
I don't feel they were lying when they used bolt belays on the ascent. Their intent was not to use the *bolt ladders*.
Also, they never claimed that they descended the route without using bolt anchors (or maybe even some of the bolt ladders).
Your point about not summitting the ice mushroom does imply they lied about summitting - they clearly claim to have summitted.
|
|
eddie franks
climber
|
|
Let me mention a few things and then relate a story that happened to my friend…
(1) I’ve climbed for over 20 years and climb at a reasonable level (nothing to write to the rags about).
(2) I’ve climbed on 4 continents, including first ascents.
(3) I’ve never placed, or pulled, a bolt.
(4) I’ve met Micah and Josh briefly. Both seemed nice enough and pretty straight shooters.
Knowing nothing for certain other than the info from this thread and Alpinist, I wanted to mention 3 things and really point out a 4th.
(1) People should always stand up to be counted when it comes to sticking up for what one believes in—good on Micah for sticking up for friends.
(2) Josh is a rad climber and I respect his efforts in Patagonia and elsewhere.
(3) IF it is true that the party intended to chop bolts, that is pretty weak, especially if this was “hidden” from others. At least be man enough to take responsibility for what you intend to do (whether or not you actually succeed in doing it and, again, IF that is true).
(4) IF it is true that Bean assaulted Steve (who is a cool guy), someone should put his ass in the hospital. This gets me to my final point. I have a friend who is a mediocre surfer. He is, however, decent at some other things. One morning a few years back he was surfing a spot and began to get some of that “locals only, go home” sort of sh#t. He took it for awhile, trying to ignore it. A couple of set later, a guy drops in on him and purposely knocks him from his board. Shouting ensues. Mr. Surfer tells my friend to paddle in. At this point, my friend just wanted out, but as he paddles in the other guy follows him. On the beach, Mr. Surfer feels confident because he is bigger and younger than my friend. To make a long story short, after my buddy smacked Mr. Surfer around for a bit he paused, told him, “this is for being such an ass”… then separated his shoulder. Crack. No more surfing for that season.
Climbing ethics and style are important. But IF (if, if, if) Bean did assault Steve, I hope someday he too picks on the wrong guy someday.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
hey man,
good post.
right arm!
i agree with ya.
i once got sucker punched when 19. f*#kers broke my jaw. since hen that aint never happened. never.
fighting is to win, but fighting should only be done as a last resort to protect your personal safety. and if some as#@&%e starts it, then they get what they deserve.
|
|
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
|
|
The bolts will eventually rust away and fall out anyway.
Though when I climbed the Maestri/Bridwell route (SE ridge, whatever you want to call it) in 1993, the Cassin bolts (the type that look like a tiny piton--a wedge about 1 1/2" long with a Lost Arrow-type forged eye) were looking pretty solid after 22 years.
Still, it seems like it would take longer to remove the bolts than to climb the thing, and when the heck does the weather even cooperate for speedy ascent of the tower? It seems like the attempt to "clean" the route, which is quite a statement, would end in a half-finished job, making the route lost in limbo.
Moreover it seems to me that the only people qualified to chop even a single bolt on the route, should be able to climb the entire route without any fixed anchors at all.
Interesting concept though. It seems similar in concept to chopping the Nose since it has been proven to be climbable without any fixed anchors at all.
Edit: meant to say, "proven to be POTENTIALLY climbable without any fixed anchors at all".
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
deuce,
so the nose has been climbed without any fixed anchors at all?
really.
well, lynn didnt do it. she clipped those boltson the headwall.
i aint against getting rid of useless stuff but the roginal line of the nose probably has not been climbed sans bolts. we should keep our stories strait
|
|
maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
Ron,
I'm not advocating chopping those bolts. I'm just trying to satrt an argument. I mean, so what if there's a stupid, artificial, insensitive trade route on the most beautiful alpine spire in the world? Who cares if 5.4 climbers can wank their way to the top of a 5.12 spire?
Mal--I hate slippery slopes--Daly
|
|
jackass
climber
|
|
I am with you Radical... lets go climb that thing then!
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Why do you guys always have to dis us 5.4 climbers? I'm just out having fun on the rock. Excuuuuuuse meeeee!
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
Rhodo Router, Little Cotton-er: Thanks for the link and information. Helping shed some light on all the heat and smoke.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
How long til Josh and Zack can get to a computer and reply themselves? Looking forward to hearing their point of view.
I wonder if they're happy with what they did, or tried to do? Now that they have had time to think about it, is there anything they regret? Might they apologize? Or will they stand firm and defiant?
Waiting to hear.....
|
|
BrentA
Gym climber
Roca Rojo
|
|
I may not rip anymore, or maybe even never did, BUT...
I like to think that I still have the alpine in me. When confronted with a choice (which I still have a shot at making reality) of climbing Cerro Torre via a liar's bolt ladder and summitting, or standing at the bottom and waiting until I can climb it in real style...
I say let it become a museum and playground for those that are upto the task.
As far as boys fighting, well when real passion flares I don't see anything wrong with two men in a clean fight sorting out some business.
Personally I'm aiming for the West Ridge, another friend climbed it this season and the pics inspire my inner alpinist. not the one that currently resides on the outside.
Josh, Zack and a host of other talented alpinists function in an orbit far beyond any of ours...make the mountain pretty I say. Alpinsim and climbing arent' for everyone. If your not upto the job, stand down or cowboy up!
As far as what is reported, I'm down with Josh (remember he was with Bean and Jonny when Bean sailed off the snocone summit). If he says he summitted he did....end of story. Let him get home and sort it out in person.
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
BrentA,
while it is hard to dispute the beauty and the affront some climbers may feel for maestri's style, it is only through the modern advances that climbers of today can do what they do. To stretch your logic we may as well start choppin bolts all over the place. I dont really care, but the logic of ethics and how it is applied in his sport is so f*#ked up it is beyond ridiculous.
That may not be so bad. But when others decide to erase things for others, it gets ugly.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
I remember there was some fuss when Maestri did whatever it was he did. I don't know about alpine climbing but my observation generally is individuals do what they do because of things going on inside their head. Is there any significance even a millimeter outside of their head? I would tend to doubt it. If we destroy the real world it is only us who will be hurt. Surely humans will have died out long before the world has been able to restore itself naturally. So we can take heart. In our thoughtless rage we hurt only ourselves. In the end, justice will be done.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Oh.
Here's an idea Malcolm; remove the bolts and leave the holes specially shaped to accept only the NEW! (patented) Trango Torre TricKey.
A rack of 3Ts is all you need to wank your way up the Torre. Then you can go back to the flatlands and tell everyone you've climbed the world's hardest spire.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Interesting
Just what are we looking for at the top of these summits?
|
|
Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
|
|
A secret door with a portal to another dimension
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
The best way to get down?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Hahahaha LOL
Common, someone must know.
|
|
Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
|
|
There is a secret portal on the Texas flake, right above the euro bolt that was ADDED!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
The euro bolt?
There were some bolts added behind Texas flake I believe by the body recovery team to extract (hauling system) the base jumper that had augured in behind the flake when his chute had malfunctioned.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
Dude! Last time I was up by the Texas Flake, there was a rivet ladder [or were they aluminum dowel thingies?] up the ramp forming its top left side. I believe it has since been chopped.
Werner - when was it the BASE guy decked behind the flake? Eeeeeeeeesh.....
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Don't remember the year Pete.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Talk about catching a short flight to Texas!
|
|
Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
|
|
I havn't been on the nose in a couple of years but when I was, there was some euro type bolt, I tried to pull it but my hex/allen wrench was too small.
If Harding can do it in boot's so can we.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Werner asked:
Just what are we looking for at the top of these summits?
You, of all people, should know!
"Climbing is the lazy man's way to enlightenment. It forces you to pay attention, because if you don't, you won't succeed, which is minor — or you may get hurt, which is major. Instead of years of meditation, you have this activity that forces you to relax and monitor your breathing and tread that line between living and dying. When you climb, you always are confronted with the edge. Hey, if it was just like climbing a ladder, we all would have quit a long time ago." — Duncan Ferguson.
|
|
LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
|
|
there has been some thread drift
I would really like to hear from Shipoopi himself
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Gary
Just what will I do with enlightenment? All by myself in some lonely spot? I spit in disgust at the thought of enlightenment.
I just want to be the dog that serves the master.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
Werner wrote: I just want to be the dog that serves the master.
Most of us want to be the master that gets serve by the dog.
What is this thread about??
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
It's about how "Willy the mountain scalar" got lost on the way to the top.
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
it's not about enlightenment. it's about those fleeting moments of peace, and the sense of connection to the whole...
ymmv...
|
|
DaveT.
Big Wall climber
southeast face portaledge
|
|
Whoa! holy smokes, the stuff has hit the fan here on supertopo with this one. i havent posted here in a long time, but this i must contribute on. yes, a lot of this went down. how do i know this? i was climbing with steve the whole time, and was caught in the middle of all of this, as everyone involved in this mess are friends of mine. let me first state that yes, steve was hurt a bit in this, but had no real damage done, as we were back climbing on the torre a few days later. and here goes my interpretation of what happened, but littlecottonwood posted pretty much everything.
josh and zack showed up to erase the compressor route"s lead bolts, if they could skip most, if not all of them, on their way to the summit. link natural features of the compressor route, re-climb some other failed attempted variations, and establish some new variations as well. and then pull them out on the way down. a very big job it was going to be, they new it. controversial? they knew that it would be. did they tell steve and i? no. should they have? i am staying out of the comments!. but let me state something about josh and zack right now. i consider both of them friends of mine, and would climb with either one of them if it ever popped up. they are good guys, very capable of climbing at difficult grades, and there is no tensions between them and i.
yes, steve got real pissed off at the two of them, and took down the poles from their tent(they were borrowing it from bean), without damaging it in any way. that afternoon, steve found josh and yelled at him. the next day bean and steve had their encounter. three days later, we were all back at the torre.
josh and zack climbed thier proposed line as best they could, using the headwall bolts and all belays. super proud and visionary, i was one of the first to congradulate them as they rapped past us up on the stone. and no, they did not make the summit. it was too cold and windy, is what they told me. does the last mushroom count? no comment, form your own opinions. was the article misleading? i am not sure, i am going to read it next. but i can see both sides of the argument, pro and con. niether is cut and dry, but hey, i dont really care. it is not my problem. but yes, the argentines want the route to stay, and in the end they have the final word. i can see where this guy little cottonwood is coming from, although i dont know him. he, as well as other local climbers, are pissed that some gringos came here "cowboy style"(quote from an argentine to me) to do what they wanted to on something that wasnt theirs. i told steve about this link, we might hear from him soon.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Dave, thanks for sharing what happened. So they had a plan to chop if they had done it without any bolt ladders, but shelved the plan when they used the headwall bolt ladder.
Edit: Here's the chronology, thanks to Steve's account for clearing up some details:
They don't announce their plans to the public in advance, but rumors surface at the main base camp.
Apparently they try their crowbar out on one of Maestri's bolts, but it doesn't work, so they make a trip to get "clippers" to make the hangers unusable unstead.
Steve finds out they have a crowbar in their rack at their high camp (or maybe at the base).
Steve collapses tent, yells at Josh, gets shoved by Bean.
Josh and Zack climb Cerro Torre to top of headwall; 100 MPH winds prevent them from doing the final mushroom.
|
|
guest
climber
|
|
Indeed, quite the thread. I've spoken with Josh about this. He and I are good friends, he's of utmost integrity and honesty, and he's probably the most level headed person I know. I've emailed with Bean about it as well. Considering that many people here have ripped on Josh and Bean without knowing the facts, I wanted to add a few things. Also, I should note up-front that individual interpretations of events can differ greatly, as we all know. Perhaps Steve remembers things differently than Josh does. But anyway, a few things to consider:
--Steve (whom I've met and think highly of, but hey, everybody f*#ks up) verbally threatened Josh in Bridwell Camp. Josh told me this personally. Steve said, among other things (like "You're done, dude, you're done! F*#k you! F*#k you!"), that he was going to "kick his ass" and had said he was going to find their stuff at high camp (Polacos, I believe) and throw it in a crevasse. This wasn't a "discussion" (which Josh, being incredibly level-headed, is capable of having about anything), but rather Steve ranting and yelling at Josh for an hour or more, Josh not engaging him in the yelling/freaking, while several people with Steve stood by. Josh, on the other hand, was alone. Apparently a Venezuelan climber there caught it all on video tape. Steve subsequently realized that he was way out of line, as he repeatedly, sincerely apologized to Josh and Zach a day or two later, admitting that he "lost it." Again, we all f*#k up, and it sounds like Steve went overboard on this one.
--Josh was super shaken-up by Steve's tirade and threats, and talked to Bean about storing his stuff at Bean's house (btw, in terms of the "local" thing, Bean is American but he also lives part-year in Chalten, has a little cabin there and is part of the local community). Bean, not one to take sh#t and also one with enough integrity to stand up for his friends, confronted Steve about it, then grabbed him, tripped him to the ground, and verbally went off on him. Bean didn't hit Steve -- Steve wasn't hurt, despite, it sounds, being fairly dramatic about things (arm in a sling, hospital for X-rays; yet miraculously went bouldering and climbing a day or two after...). Had Bean hit Steve, surely we'd know because there would have been real damage.
--To all those universally deriding Bean for getting a little physical against Steve (some pretty minor physicality, really; if you don't think so, you've lived a very sheltered existence), I have a couple of thoughts:
1. I strongly suspect you've never had someone threaten you, your property, or someone you care about.
2. If this does happen to you (since it'd be a new experience to you and you likely wouldn't know whether to sh#t or go blind), you'll wish you had friends like Bean. I greatly respect Bean's standing up for Josh & Zach. It's bullshit to act like Bean did something wrong when Steve made physical threats to Josh & Zach and their property. What, it's OK to intimidate and make threats (Josh is as non-violent as they come, and was super shaken-up by Steve's actions and threats), but not OK for someone to step in and end it? If you're going to make threats, like Steve did, then be f*#king ready to keep it going and don't start whining when someone (like Bean) comes along and calls you on it and puts you in your place. What bullsh#t. What should Josh and Josh's friends done, given Steve a hug in response to Steve's threats of physical harm? BTW, thanks to Bean, Steve's antics ended there. Done.
--Not all of the Argentine climbers down there think Josh & Zach's idea was a bad one, especially since their hope was to climb the route while minimizing use of the 300+ bolts. As evident by the length of this thread, this is a controversial issue with many opinions, imagine that. To those noting how "wrong" it is for visiting climbers to chop a route on Argentine soil -- which is a decent point, I should add -- don't forget that Cesare Maestri is not Argentine, either. He's the one who did the "Murder of the Impossible" in drilling the 300+ bolts in the first place. So, this visiting climber was free to do what he wants to Cerro Torre, but others aren't? Hmmm... Of course we can go back-and-forth, never-ending, on right/wrong, leave-as-is/undo, etc, but I haven't seen this mentioned and it's certainly worth considering.
--Final note (I'm almost done, I promise), regarding reporting of ascents, spraying one's self up, etc. Of the handful of friends Josh sent an email to about all this, one of those friends does some online news reports and he'd already heard about the fiasco down there. Also, since some climbers, including some of Josh's friends, work in the climbing media, it isn't suprising that word gets out. Just because something becomes publicized in a news report it doesn't necessarily mean that the climber(s) went and send a "press release" to the mags or were looking for glory--although certainly some climbers do this as well. Furthermore, I think it's fair to assume that anybody reading this has an interest in what happens in the climbing world, including reading about inspirational ascents, attempts, and the much-loved fiascos. Sh#t, what would all 120+ of us posting here have to piss and moan about otherwise? Easy to get high-and-mighty, often, I've noticed, with a tone of self-righteousness, about how "me & McGillicutty did something way radder but never felt the need to tell anybody," and that's fine if you want to be like that, but it's ironic to see that very sentiment sprayed in a web forum. Plus, how many of us exist in such a vacuum that we haven't found inspiration (or, at least, entertainment) in reading about the accomplishments and trials of others?
--Kelly Cordes
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
It's great to get the perspectives from all sides, and there are always all sides.
Many kudos to Steve for telling the story as unvarnished as possible and owning up to the mistakes on his part. That's real humanity and the kind of attitude that I wish was more common.
There is certainly no absolute right or wrong regarding the bolts up there although I strongly come down on the side of keeping them.
That said, you can bet I'll never go up there to clip em. Somebody asked me to do the compressor route with them recently and I could only laugh and point them to the kind of guys who were up there climbing it this season.
Best to all involved and may forgiveness and understanding rule the day
Karl
|
|
shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
|
|
just the facts, maam
well, didn´t really mean to cause an international incident. i mean, most people know me as a fun loving guy that loves to poke fun at himself and other blondes. but, here goes..
when i got to chalten i heard rumours that my friends josh and zack wanted to chop the compressor route, but seeing as how they did not say anything about it to me, i left it alone. and then i heard they were actually up there with a crowbasr experimenting with bolt removal. this, while ten international expeditions were lined up to do the route. and i just snapped and threw the wobbler of the milliniem. seems they were not really caring about me, their friend climbing the route, or all the rest of us that were there. so, what i did was
walk down to bridwell and carefully remove their poles from their basecamp tent(actually bean bower´s tent), what i thought was a harmless prank, but it was a loser move, and disrespectful of zack and josh. then i went to town and verbally berated josh in front of a few people, swearing at him, and disavowing our friendship, and oh yeah, threatening him physically. that was pretty blonde of me, josh is a big guy. to his credit he sat and took it like a man, and later, when i came to my senses, told him how rad he was for maintaining his cool. next morning zack and josh took my partner, dave turner, and i out for coffee. pretty nice gesture. while i was a bit more civil, i hadn´t slept at all the last two nights and i was pretty worked up. told them to get out of town, and if they did not go get their rack soon, i would go hide it from them thinking that would save the compressor route for a year anyway. that was like loser move number three. i mean, zack, bless his blonde heart told me how when he was growing up and reading the mags that i was one of his heroes. anyway, after agreeing to disagree, they went and told their friend bean bowers and he came and found me. pulled up on his bike, i said hi bean and put out my hand. he threw the bike down and then threw me down. that guy is as quick as lightning. i mean it was over before the bell stopped ringing. anyway, i came down pretty hard on my elbow, and thought it was broke. i was scared, crying, and pleading with him not to hurt me anymore. be curious to see the video on that one. as the ambulance took me to the hospital, i began to realize what a i had been. indeed, i am embarassed and ashamed with my actions and they way i handled it. should of just talked out our differences over a berr or three. anyway, xrays proved negative, but it was bruised and hurting, still hurts a bit, but i would be able to climb again.
so, in the aftermath, there was a huge climbers meeting that night with a discussion of whether to chop or not to chop the route. then there was a vote, and it was about ten to one in favor of leaving the route as is. so ,while i´m not pleased at how i handled it, i´m at least glad i said something because nobody else was willing to talk to zack and josh about the matter cause they are such badass climbers.
and, i´ve personally apologized to zack, josh, and bean(bean by email) for being such a jerk. i think zack and i are ok, he´s a pretty forgiving guy, and even let me roll a drum cigarette form his stash later on the mountain. talk about a nice peacepipe. josh and i are another matter, and i can see it in his eyes that he is less than estatic with me...and that really hurts, hope i have not blown it with him.
and about bean, someone had to knock me off the high horse i was riding, although i think he could have been a bit gentler. i´ve told him i´m sorry that my actions compelled him to do what he did. i harbor no hard feelings against this man, and ask that everybody else do the same. to those of you who were willing to toe it up with bean on my behalf, thank you, but let´s just kind of see if we can all forgive and forget. sometimes patagonia does things to people that you would not normally see at home.
and as for the compressor route...well, it ain´t no freaking via ferrata, and in fact is still an extreme route requiring skill, luck, and courage to send. this was my third expedition to climb the bitch, with a new hi9ghpoint of pitch 8, only 20 more to go...whooopie. its hard, believe me.
to bolt or not to be. i feel that the route should remain as is. you have got to respect the tradition that this route represents, that it was put up a long time ago by a world class mountaineer, and that people are lined up every year to either strut their stuff or get stuffed while strutting on this classic climb. removing the bolts would only serve to satisfy the egos of a few misguided elitist. sure, i´ve heard the arguments. the route is a desecration to the mountain, there are just a ridiculous amount of bolts, let´s make people climb the mountain on its own terms and blah, blah, blah. i say let democracy rule, i mean, ten to one in favor keeping the route the same in a vote by 6o patagonian climbers, that´s something.
another note, some people feel that this is a matter for the argentines to decide, not the american cowboys. i disagree. tom frost once told me "nobody owns the rock steve". i think everybody has a say in the matter, especially those of us wanting to repeat the route, and the many that want to come in the future. sincerely, Steve "shipoopoi" Schneider
|
|
Jacko
Trad climber
Grass Valley Ca.
|
|
As a once a year climber and arm chair Mountaineer, this has been good sh#t!Most of us would give our left nut, just to stand at the base and look up at the famous Compressor Route on Cerro Torre.Respect and admiration for Steve for telling the story and taking responsibility for his bad in the fiasco...Thanks for some climbing related good reading..Jacko
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Great stuff and BIG F'CKIN DEAL, whoopie-T-do, as for the fighting goes.
We loose it sometimes, who hasn't. I've seen a good deal of it over the years, so nothing new there.
Glad you all patched it up, and props to all of you for your attempts to climb the "Tower".
|
|
maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
Steve,
That was an awesome post. Thx mucho. That took a lot of cojones. Props to you man.
Mal
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
Neil's statement above speaks eloquently to the matter. The compressor route was installed by a failed, lying climber, so the question for the climbing community really is, "Is it better to leave the route standing as a monument poor alpine form or remove it to reveal the original beauty of one of the best and least attainable alpine summits on the planet?
Knowing very well that I'm not going to convince anyone, and that someone, somewhere will violently disagree against anything I choose to write on this point - still my conscience makes me feel obliged to write this:
I would really, but REALLY be careful before to call Cesare Maestri a "failed, lying climbed". It was never ever the former, and there's no real, hard evidence of him being the latter (just many serious suspicions). His motives for putting the Compressor Route were extremely debatable (probably he did it just out of monumental spite against the Torre), but this doesn't make him any better than many continental climbers of his age, whose main difference from Cesare, one of the greatest Dolomite climbers of the 50's and early 60's were:
a) better lawyers
b) better manners in handling media connections
c) less controversial opinions on politics and religion
(anyone here from Italy or acquainted with Italy's climbing history knows well what I'm talking about)
As for the Compressor Route, well, I've never been even close to climb it, but having spoken with few people that did early repeat of it (including Jim Bridwell - who may remember me as one of the guys he met during one of his many Italian trips), they didn't exactly define it "a via ferrata". But again, I know nothing about Cerro Torre, so I've no real opinion on this.
Luca Signorelli
|
|
slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
NB: I have not been to Argentine Patagonia, and any of my numerous climbing partners will tell you that I am a whiny pus*y with scant talent.
That said, I know Kelly personally, having climbed numerous pitches with him over the years. Though his sense of humor and irony is grand, he is not one to embellish *anything* when the cards are on the table. I trust what he says as gospel, pretty much.
I also know Bean a bit, having backed him up in an almost-fight many years ago in the Creek. I can imagine his temper to get the better of him, but not without significant provocation. Given Steve's gratuitously humble apology (above, 3X) for his "wobbler," I don't see Bean's *really* *minor* *physical* intimidation to be that big a deal. I've seen more bar fights go down with way worse consequences.
And the bolts? Looks like Cerro Torre is just a microcosm of North Conway, New Hampshire.
-Seth Green
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
Wow, there's a novel.
|
|
Anastasia
Trad climber
California
|
|
Snooky wrote: "Sounds like Bachar syndrome again."
I am very tired of you, Snooky. You have proven yourself to be lacking.
Anastasia
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
Far as I can tell, all concerned in this affair are beginning to look pretty stand-up to me. Steve's account is a model for taking responsibility.
Best to all involved.
-Jeff Lowe
|
|
Brian
climber
Cali
|
|
Glad to hear that some of the mess seems to have blown over. Hopefully everyone will be able to patch up...
Regarding one of the initial issues... Props to Josh (who I’ve met briefly) and Zack (who I've never met); however, I hope that the idea of chopping the bolts has been abandoned, at least by these two.
It would be very, very lame to "take the easy way out" (Josh's words) and go for the summit using bolts that you later chop (next season, the season after, whatever). If the summit experience is important and special enough that they can make an exception for themselves (i.e., its OK for us to clip the headwall bolts because we did some rad climbing below and, heck, we were trying to avoid the bolts... but the weather is dicey and we really don't want to go home without the summit when we are so close...). If you use the bolts to get you to the summit, it would be pretty hypocritical to return at a later date to chop them.
I have no idea if it is true, but THANK GOD no one involved did anything as heinous and stupid as simply clipping/cutting the bolt hangers. The only thing worse than an unnecessary bolt is an unnecessary bolt smashed or defaced without being removed.
Again, I'm psyhed that Josh and Zach summited, or whatever with the whole mushroom, and I wish them continued success. I for one am inspired by reading about such super-alpinists, despite being stuck firmly in what a post above called the advanced-intermediate stage of international alpinism.
With respect to Kelly's post above: he is right in one sense. If a person threatens violence he or she should be prepared for violence. I've been through plenty of smackdowns (and on both ends of the smacking). However, I would still throw in a note of disapproval. When climbers come to blows about what amounts to a (very heated) argument about climbing ethics, I think that is unfortunate. I guess Bean was sticking up for a friend, which is cool; but there was no immediate threat to his friend, so his hot-headedness is as bad as all the others'.
Again, I hope everyone can patch things up. Glad to hear all are safe.
Brian
|
|
Steve Long
Social climber
UK
|
|
What a lovely juicy thread! Personally I loved "Little Cotton-er's" diction and thought it totally appropriate for exciting gossip.
Since I've stood on top of the mushroom in question I feel I've earned the right to chip in with some observations.
You can't erase history. If you chop all the bolts then you're going to destroy a whole season for a bunch of Cerro Torre "via Ferrata" suitors. (Incidentally, I didn't see many 5.4 climbers up there myself!) All you people claiming that the use of Maestri's bolts to make progress makes it a non-ascent should reflect about the descent. I don't think many people have got back off the hill without using a bolt or two of Maestri's!
I'm full of admiration for the people who have climbed Cerro Torre by other routes, but I don't believe that the existence of the Compressor Route detracts from their achievements really. Hey, you can walk up el Capitan, but that doesn't make Reticent (who, me?) Wall any easier. Unless of course they climb one line, then rap down the convenient Compressor Route and then claim that using the bolts on the way down is somehow ok, but not for the journey up.
I had a lovely time on the Compressor Route, it was the centre piece for one of the best holidays of my life: people can call it a non-route all they like but I can tell you it feels pretty good to stand on that summit. And if you want a great climb without getting upset about Maestri's bolts, how about repeating the Slovenians' Devils' Dihedral and then forging a new line up the headwall? Wouldn't that be a more beautiful statement than chipping away again at poor old Maestri?
Oh and by the way, we Brits tend to join the moral highground because Maestri stole the line after "we" tried previously to climb it without bolts. But why did the British team descend to get a supply of bolting kit? Perhaps its just as well that bad weather stopped play...
|
|
darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
|
|
Just the "idea" of chopping those bolts makes me think that those boys are way over their heads, really thinking they're some kind of crusaders for the pure, and completely disregarding the local's opinion (since they didn't even consult with them, or anybody). I don't care if you climb 5.13X and put up amazing routes all over the world, that's just arrogance and ego and I'd be very careful if I was them, the mountain has more than a few ways (not very pleasant ones) to teach us humility.
The whole cowboy showdown was pretty lame and embarrasing to all the involved, but I have to appreciate Steve's cojones to try to stop the madness.
darod.
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
Blah blah blah bl-frickin'-ah.
I'm happy all the vagititis has died down, but the point remains that two "humble" guys wanted to take it on themselves without consulting the community to erase part of mountaineering history.
And a third party who was not threatened with anything, became physically violent, and escalated a situation he was not part of.
So this is what the brotherhood of climbers has now come to accept? Elitism, hubris and violence?
Josh and Zack may be nice guys, but this was a Potter level asswipe move.
I am at a loss to come up with a word to express my disgust for the complacent acceptance of unacceptable behavior and thoughtless actions of vandals and thugs.
Weak...
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
I am reminded of when Ronald Reagan said "Well, boys will be boys!"
It strikes me that if people were up front with their intentions and willing to listen to others much of this may have never happened.
|
|
snooky
climber
|
|
Elcapfool is right vandals suck, like I said before this is pure Bachar syndrome.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
snooky: "Elcapfool is right vandals suck, like I said before this is pure Bachar syndrome."
Please tell us exactly what you mean by that. If it is meant critically, tell us why. Facts. Not innuendo, not gossip. Facts. And, if you're being critical of John by name, you should provide your own name. It may help us determine whether you're saying anything we should listen to.
It is interesting that you use the adjective "pure" in conjunction with "Bachar". None of us is a saint, and we all stumble at times. But John certainly stands for purity in climbing, and style of climbing. One of the great rock climbers of the 20th, and into the 21st century. And benefactor of innumerable climbers, e.g. through the routes he's created, and his promotion of the sticky shoe revolution. He's never been afraid to publicly stand up for the values he believes in as a climber. Is all this what you mean by Bachar syndrome?
Anders
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
If there is a syndrome for vandalizing the creations of others why on earth should John's name preface it?
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
Hats off to Steve for his account.
I have two issues with thi story. From what I read, Alpinist says they summitted. But the guys who were there said they did not. Am I the only one who sees a problem here? Where is the honesty in reporting?
Secondly, is it alright for hardmen to chop old routes they disagree with?
Seems pretty assinine to me that the modern day hardman is now contemplating chopping a route done what nearly 4 decades ago? Now with modern gear, modern techniques, topo's of the route, and a modern attitude developed through following in others footsteps, these hardmen show their disdain by attempting to chop the route.
Sorry, I dont buy it. These guys climbing resumes are as impressive as they come. However, if you want to really show how much more superior than Maestri you guys are, then you should use the same equipment and techniques available to Maestri at the time. Forget about your topo and goretex, forget about modern gear, go send it wihout. Then perhaps you have a leg to stand on.
As it is, it would apear to be a very ego driven plan foiled by weather and Maestri's well placed bolts. You guys want to chop, think about what it was like for Maestri with the equipment he had back then. And the knowledge that nobody had climbed it before.
Maestri Route in Red rom the Alpinist Website.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
This is cyberspace wes. Perhaps you could just explain yourself.
Why should John's name preface such a "syndrome"? Vigilantees are ubiquitous. It actually seems like most of them are wannabes who secretly envy those who have made a name for themselves climbing and, unable to do so themselves, seek to tear down the efforts of others.
Very few vigilante efforts I recall were by "name" climbers as the fallout tends to snowball.
As this thread about an "attempt" that didn't even come to be demonstrates.
|
|
Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Kendal, English Lake District
|
|
No Wes I don't think it was...
I do know who shot those things off though.
Great Eastside climbinglore!
Mick
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Hah!
So it was BS from the getgo.
Is it any surprise we see these little brou-ha-has?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Haven't stood at the base to know, but from the pics I've seen over the years it looks like there is plenty of stone left for separate FAs, as opposed to screwing around with the Compressor which doesn't even look like the most interesting line on it beyond its tainted history. I'm normally a "chop-chop" sort of guy, but it would seem chopping a line as historically notable as Maestri's epic misadventure would call for an international symposium in the nearest town where, like civilized men, drinks could be exchanged at the bar after all the fights over the proposed action were over.
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
On the other hand trying to erase a line, that it is now obvious was created by a liar
Well, no, it's not obvious at all - again, I would like to see someone keeping a more level headed attitude towards Maestri's history. People should really try to be a bit more informed before jumping to conclusion, especially if the honour of one of Europe best rock climber is at stake ("honour at stake" - sound very old fashioned, isn't it?)
Luca Signorelli
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Maestri, a not-altogether unlike Harding character, got intense grief for bringing a bolt compressor up there. Now, I don't think anybody would think twice about somebody establishing a route using a Hilti. Perhaps a bit ahead of his time, after all, Maestri and Cerro Torre history are totally inseparable.
and it's true, they didn't have the same gear or techniques back then, there was plenty of uncertainty, Maestri was no loser.
Heck, even the weather seems like it's better these days. 30-50 years from now it will be more like EL Cap and the next Eric Kohl will solo something up there in many days at A5.
and speaking of bad weather, how many times have parties been desperately bailing in a storm and had their butts saved by Maestri's bolts? Kinda looks like Josh's ascent might not have even happened without them.
For those who don't know, a lot of reasoning/rationalization has taken place over what constitutes "Summiting" on Cerro Torre. Some folks say that since the Mushroom is just ice and a temporary coating on the mountain, that you can say you summited by just getting to the base of the Mushroom. Naturally, the folks who claw/tunnel/thrash to the tippy-top sometimes dispute that claim. This is further complicated by the fact that sometimes the mushroom is doable and sometimes it's a nightmare.
But hey, Cerro Torre seems to attract this kind of drama so let the adventure drama roll!
Peace
karl
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
I'm with Lucas in that people should realize just how great a climber Maestri was in his day.
I'd like to hear from Mike Clifford who has not only summited the Torre but also paid a record sum at the AAC auction for the part of the compressor that Bird "salvaged" with his hammer.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
Nice post - for a blonde. If Steve were a girl-blonde, with a heart of passion like that, he'd most likely give you the shaggin' of your life, and later drive you crazy.
However he would also have the ovaries to apologize when he had hurt someone, making his a very manly post.
Don't chop the route - leave the bolts in place. Nature will take care of them eventually, and it's doubtful anyone will replace them.
Only a lameass would claim an ascent of Cerro Torre without climbing the summit mushroom, because it's the mushroom that makes the climb so hard! Obviously Cerro Torre is desperately hard if a talented hardman wall climber like Steve is O fer 3 on the thing.
Karl's analogy of Maestri's compressor compared to today's [sport-climbing pussy] Hilti drill gives me pause for thought. Using artificial means to drill bolts used to be considered cheating, and it bloody still should be.
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
Nobody is perfect Luca
The Maestro was a bad ass mother
There is no dis-honor in that...
The Maestro is less perfect than a lot of people can imagine - a self centred, aggressive, publicity seeking, bad tempered bastard, an anarchist, an unrepentant atheist, a terminal prankster, a notorious womaniser (but only before he married - another typical Maestri trait, as his wife Fernanda was "the best girl in town"), abusive against those who he felt were attacking him, revengeful, a loudmouth, a real pain-in-you-know-what...
...and one of the best rock climber of his age - strong and bold beyond belief, technically superb, never let down one of his partner, could climb F6a in his big boots and IN DESCENT - how many climbers of the 60's could do that? How come that, in his many shortcomings, no one ever could nail him as a liar in his other many accomplishments?
And about the Torre (a mountain I know nothing about) - if he lied about the North ridge, why didn't he simply came back and bolted his way up THAT line instead of the SW route, so to clear up his tracks? And moreover - if Maestri had been a US or UK or France climber, would have his own community left him alone, being called all around the world "a liar"?
I'm not saying that Maestri didn't lie about the 1959 climb - I've no real knowledge about this, and I'm no Cerro Torre expert. But nothing I've heard about this story (including Ermanno Salvaterra opinion repeated to the press and on some website) is for me convincing enough to endorse a public lynching of someone I think deserves at least the benefit of doubt.
Luca Signorelli
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Illogical in one person's judgement does not equal liar.
I've climbed formations by several different routes, because it's challenging and/or fun. I guess I was illogical?
I'm totally with you for your calculation of 3 trips for $20K, half a year of life and having a dream.
I'm not so much into judging a route by whether the FA person may or may not have been a liar. When routes have been around for long enough to get some traffic (or not), they can be judged on their own merits. Although the history will be of some value to some people. (I guess it's when the history is uncertain that it gets tricky).
|
|
jackass
climber
|
|
Riley,
Didn't you hear Donini? He said 5.4 via ferata, why would you need to climb 5.12?!
Also, about the 20,000 dollar thing. WAY off. Going to El Chalten is very cheap. Nothing to it. Easy access, easy approach. If you spent 1500 to 2000 per trip, that would be a lot. (Depending on where you go and what you do...) But to go to Cerro Torre from the states is way cheap. I am pissed though because when I was there last with my wife, I didn't realize that there was a 5.4 via ferata... she climbs at 5.6, so we could have cruised it!
By the way, one of the more beautiful places on Earth, even if you aren't a climber.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Riley,
bravo, because Lucas has the depth to recognize that the Torre has the tendency to eclipse Maestri the man. If you look at some of his other climbs it is possible to see how difficult it might have been for him to confront failure.
I'm not excusing the deception but rather trying to understand it.
|
|
guest
climber
|
|
To Luca and those unsure of whether or not Maestri climbed Cerro Torre (meaning, in 1959; he admitted stopping atop the headwall in 1970)...btw, for those who don't care, this is off-topic. But if you care, and you probably do if you've posted specifically about it, please check this out:
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/pdfs/aaj/AAJ_04%20Garibotti-CerroTorre.pdf
It's the single most exhaustive piece ever written about the subject. Many articles suffered from lack of research, due in part to language barriers. The author of the above piece, Rolando Garibotti, is fluent in four or five languages and his article is a thesis on the topic. I, and many others who deal with subjects related to world alpinism (I'm one of the editors of the American Alpine Journal, where the above piece ran in the 2004 edition), consider Garibotti to be, hands-down, the most knowledgeable source of Patagonia climbing history in the world. His above article thoroughly reveals Maestri's numerous self-contradictions, like drawing in three distinctly different lines on different occasions when asked where the 1959 route goes, the dramatic difference in Maestri's descriptions of key terrain features versus those found by other parties attempting the lines, and many, many other things.
Not only is Garibotti incredibly thorough, but he made the first ascent of the north face, with Ermanno Salvaterra and Alessandro Beltrami, in 2005. The trio found not a single sign of Maestri's 1959 attempt above the triangular snowfield, a mere 300m or so up the route. Salvaterra had long believed Maestri, and has now been raked over the coals by some in Italy, even threatened with libel lawsuits from Maestri, for simply stating what evidence they found of Maestri's reported climb: nothing (beyond the above-noted stuff 300m up). Beltrami had gone to Patagonia believing Maestri -- he even works in the same guide's office where Maestri still does some easy trekking guiding. Alessandro, for understandable political reasons (remember, Maestri is an icon over there), kindly deflected my requests for comment about Maestri's 1959 claim (I was working on an article about their climb and what they found/didn't find).
Between the 2005 team and the numerous other attempts, the entire area of Maestri's claimed lines (lines, plural, since he claimed three different lines...) has been scoured. Not a single sign found up high -- Maestri claimed to have placed some 60 or so bolts (even though he claims it was ice climbing up high on the north face rock wall) on the smooth rock above the col, and in the easy terrain down low they left an arsenal of fix gear and remnants of their attempt. Stuff everywhere. Nothing higher, on the truly hard terrain, has ever been found. Nada.
Maestri's story certainly provides a fascinating piece of history, and mythology can be a fun thing to consider. Luca, please understand that I mean no disrespect to you in this. The culture surrounding Maestri, as a hero, in Italy is considerably different than here. By the same token, it might be easier for people without that influence to look at things with a bit more objectivity. This hero-worship thing exists in all cultures -- most certainly here in the U.S., in our athletics, politics, with "celebrities," and many aspects. Every culture has its heroes, and it's an interesting cultural observation when the hero status remains despite being built on a house of cards.
Would anyone believe me if I told you I went to Mars last weekend -- and all I had for proof was my word, despite multiple indications that I, in fact, came nowhere close? Read Garibotti's article (which is a fascinating analysis for those of us dorky enough to be into this stuff) and you'll see how this example proves analagous.
Some might still believe Maestri, beyond all logic or reason, and OK, sure, fine, you can't conclusively disprove Maestri's 1959 claim. Just like you can't disprove my belief that gobblins and hobbits reside on the flanks of Cerro Torre.
--Kelly
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Not sure if that refers to me.
Just to be clear, while its obvious I admire the guy, I don't think he ever summited the Torre.
|
|
maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
Well said, Kelly
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Kelly, thanks for the link and summary. I agree, Garibotti's article is pretty complete and convincing.
Previously my memory of the controversy was from the early 70s, and my recollection was that Maestri remembered very little, being drained by the epic descent and stress of his partner's death. I didn't realize he had provided so many details on their route to the Col of Conquest, and that Fava had supposedly joined them to that point of the route. The timings and comparisons with Bragg-Donini and others who climbed that section are pretty convincing evidence that the descriptions were fabricated.
I suppose his lies about the 1959 route might make some folks see his 1970 route as invalid because he is categorized as not a good guy or something. But he didn't lie about his 1970 route, so it's best to keep the two separate....
I'm tempted to wonder if Maestri believes his own descriptions about the 1959 route, or realizes they are fakes and hopes people will forget about it. Like Garibotti speculates, perhaps Maestri wanted Egger's friends to believe Egger had died a successful hero, so he took a risk in making it up. Too bad, it really created a mess.
|
|
BadInfluence
Mountain climber
Dak side
|
|
Hi Kelly
"Easy to get high-and-mighty, often, I've noticed, with a tone of self-righteousness, about how "me & McGillicutty did something way radder but never felt the need to tell anybody," and that's fine if you want to be like that, but it's ironic to see that very sentiment sprayed in a web forum."
nope you got it wrong. we just sit back and sniker amoung ourselves when you guys claim your FA that's been done already by the unknown.
|
|
Micah Dash
climber
|
|
Rolo's s article is amazing and I encourage everybody who has contributed to this forum to read it. Not only does it address the importance of documenting ascents and attempts, in the greater ranges of the world, but it also illustrates how international the history of Cerro Torre truly is.
Josh and Zack were not the first people to consider chopping the bolts on the Compressor Route. From what I understand, and I may be wrong, Maestri chopped the last pitch himself. It was later re-established by Birdwell.
Josh and Zack are not liars, they told me exactly what happened and why they stopped 30 feet from the summit proper. What has been overlooked is what these guys did climb. From the photos that they showed me they did some pretty awesome climbing up there and established some amazing variations to the existing route. They did not do it for the publicity, it makes me laugh thinking about that, they did for the challenge.
If people choose to not report their ascents that is fine. But sitting back and laughing at them because you and your super bitchin buds already climbed the same line is as elitist as it gets. Don’t worry Bad Influence I’m sure you’re bitchin.
Cerro Torre is not some random piece of rock at your local crag. It is one of the most famous and iconic mountains in the world. A mountain that I hope to some day climb. The line that the Compressor route follows is one of the most natural and logical. Maestri brought the mountain down to his level. Maybe Zack and Josh where merely encouraging people to rise to the level of Cerro Torre. Not to say that climbing the Compressor route in its current state isn’t awesome, but climbing variations that follow natural features is even more of an achievement.
In the end, and I’m speculating here, they didn’t chop the bolts on the lower portion of the route because they didn’t want to take the heat from the greater climbing community and because it would have taken six months. I think it’s understandable.
Micah
|
|
FBOMB
climber
|
|
Hey folks --
Just can't resist dipping my balls in this one.... Funny this is such a controversial topic, because it seems there is a lot we can agree on:
Most can probably agree that the style and motives of Maestri's ascent of the SE ridge did not respect certain aesthetic and environmental values that are more or less universally accepted in the modern alpine climbing community.
Most can probably agree that climbing Cerro Torre without the bolts is a far, far greater achievement.
Most can probably agree that if we could go back in a time machine and prevent the bolts from going in in the first place, that would be a sensible thing to do.
BUT -- Where the argument gets a bit sticky is when folks interpret criticism of Maestri's actions as criticism of all those who choose to repeat his route.
I can't put words into other's mouths, but I don't think the faction that has recently and vocally criticized the excessive bolting of the SE ridge has said anything criticizing those who choose to attempt a repeat of the line and use the bolts. If they did, then they would be criticizing (among others, this is just off the top of my head): Jim Bridwell, Ermanno Salvaterra, Mark Wilford, Mark Richey, Rolando Garibotti, Mark Twight, Steve Gerberding, John Bouchard, Bean Bowers, Dave Nettle, Alan Kearney, Dean Potter, Aaron Martin, Charlie Fowler, Steve Schnieder... Come to think of it, a sizable portion of today's climbing elite has gone a round or two with the Compressor sometime in their career. Why? Maybe, as Bean wrote in the AAJ after he and Dave climbed it five years ago, it's because it is "quite a classic".
So, here we are with a line that everybody agrees probably shouldn't have gone up in the first place, but now that it's there, few can resist having some fun and trying to climb it for themselves. And it is fun... Awful fun.
I guess the only other question is -- should the bolts be chopped? There are good arguments either way on this one, so personally I think it is up to the Argentines to decide. They are the guys who serve you beer, do a lot of the rescues, maintain the trails, tend to the fixed tyroleans, develop lots of cool bouldering and sport climbing around town, and generally make Patagonia such a friendly place to visit. And let's not forget -- its still FREE to climb down there. It's a simple matter of respect. And in this day and age, I believe it's important that we Americans show the rest of the world that we are friendly, respectful people, more important even then showing everyone that we Americans are badass, totally ethically pure 21st century super-alpinists with no tolerance for any hanky panky. Plus, everyone reading this probably considers them self a local somewhere, and you're kidding yourself if you wouldn't get your panties in a bunch if a bunch of Argentines showed up and unannounced tried to re-arrange established routes.
But, as was just proved, this last part is probably a mute point. Until someone as obsessed and committed as Maestri himself comes along, the bolts aren't going anywhere.
Freddie Wilkinson
|
|
BrentA
Gym climber
Roca Rojo
|
|
What a wonderful discussion this has morphed into. Seriously! Icons of rock and men, international intrigue, scandal...and no Britney with a shaved head in sight!
Still mulling over my own thoughts on all of this.
The only trolls and goblins I know may have just been to the Torre, but they live next to Tommy!
I'm still tuned in to this, and enjoying the dialogue.
Brent
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Werner: Just what will I do with enlightenment?
Just find nirvanna, man.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
wow, kind of a long read, but i am still confused about one little thing:
did these guys go up there with every intention of chopping all the bolts they didn't need, and doing so without telling the multiple parties on or wating for the route that was their intention?
if not, then (like i said) i am just confused by the above thread-
but if so, i would say that's pretty lame and inconsiderate behavior, and that all the above labels like "elitist" and "cowboy" are more than deserved, no matter who their industry pals are or how great they are when they lace 'em up. (edit- and being popular or well liked and being a great individual climber is not a license to take that sort of action unilaterally, in the absence of the input of the community at large /edit)
i'll grant that, hypothetically, if that happened, steve could have handled it better, but riley's earlier post hit the nail on the head in my mind, and who cannot imagine losing it when having a huge and long held dream of your own threatened, one that you have worked and worked and worked for? and particularly by someone that you know, someone who chose to not say anything and just go ahead w/ creating their own "vision"?
like i said above, that's a long and sometimes conflicting thread and i could have this all wrong, but that said, i don't think i am misreading anything above. i'd imagine steve (or any one else) could fly off the handle, but not for no good reason. i don't buy that. daveT said he was "in the middle" of it all, and he even says that he's buddys w/ these guys (and carefully avoids criticizing them), and yet they can't be bothered to tell the folks climbing the route (or planning to) that they were gonna rev up the chopper and dramatically change a historic and established route? as was said above- imagine if you were saving and planning a year (or 3) of your life around that route! (i know i'd say f*#k these guys and their visionary ethics, that they have no business chopping a historic route that is no more theirs than mine, and i can't imagine how pissed i'd be)
he mica-
half dome is a proud mountain too, why do you accept those pitons that roper added on the 2nd ascent of snakedike, in order to make that route more accessable? i know for sure that you and your crowd don't need them, so are they there because they are historic, or because they fascilitate access by the greater community?
what if some "visionary" guys came in and chopped the RNWF, back when you were just about to free it, cause they didn't need bolts (where you did)? and then imagine that route was half way around the world...
would you think that was visionary, or inconsiderate? (or worse?)
and what if some well intentioned euro/ruskie/S-american decided it was his "vision" to return every route on el cap to it's original bolt count? how many of those free routes do you also hope to someday climb? and what would you say if someone else's "vision" prevented it?
editorial- the only thing i can say for sure about chopping or not chopping those bolts is that some badass americans (or anyone else) have no business going up their and doing so w/out seeking the consensus of the community (haven't we learned anything from all the bolt wars?), and that if they were thinking/planning of doing that, they sure as hell should have expected to have pissed some people off, and if they actually went up and tried it, then they weren't all that concerned about whether or not their gear would be tossed in a crevase, or if they would be run out of town when they came back and announced what they'd done.
/rant
disclaimer- like i said, i could just be confused...
|
|
piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
|
|
I want to pose a question.
Is using bolts at the belays and for the final 4 pitches really "near boltless"?
Is it a big step forward in terms of style. Obviously yes.
Should we be impressed with their accomplishment... I know I am!
Was it near boltless? I don't know that it fits my definition of that phrase. Maybe I am way off the mark here.
What do others think?
I also want to state that I find Josh and Zack's ascent to be very impressive (excluding the potential bolt chopping component) and that I think Alpinist is the best rag out there these days.
Brad
|
|
Anastasia
Trad climber
California
|
|
Snooky,
I just looked at all your post and it is all about Bachar... I am just wondering, are you gay? Your obsession makes me think of suppressed impulses.
Anyway, I just want you to know that whatever you say in response still does not explain why this is the only subject you have written about. Why is that? Is there nothing else important in your life besides my boyfriend? No other opinions except about what Bachar does? Not even political, religious, or anything else? Sorry, but something is wrong with this picture.
Love,
Anastasia
|
|
Brian
climber
Cali
|
|
Focusing on just one question—should the bolts be chopped?—here are some thoughts…
I don’t think Maestri summited in 59.
I do think the style of his 1970 route sucks balls. I wish it hadn’t happened.
I do think that Josh and Zack are badass alpinists (or bitchin’ or whatever).
I am impressed that they were able to eliminate (i.e., avoid) so much of Maestri’s trash.
That being said, chopping these bolts would be pretty silly. Let’s say Josh and Zack had chopped the line of all the bolts they did not need. When people better than Josh and Zack come along (and they will) and eliminate another 30 feet of bolted climbing, or run it out a bit further between bolts they clip, should we then re-chop the route? And when still better folks eliminate more bolts or aid, should we then re-re-chop the route?
There is tons of stuff that I can third class and tons more that I can really run out (and Micah, Josh, Zack, et al. can do way more than I can). Should I chop the bolts I can skip just because now, with new gear and new standards, I can do without them? What about folks who still use them?
Who gets to decide how much, or how little, fixed gear should go in? The fricking first ascensionist, that’s who. This is not a case of a route that was put up in bad style last weekend; the route is 35+ years old. Leave it alone. If you want to climb it without the bolts, that is badass. But removing the bolts on this route is just a silly pissing contest, no matter how cool Josh and Zack are—even the best of people come up with stupid ideas, and Josh, Zack, and all their friends defending the idea of chopping the bolts should take a moment to reflect on how silly the idea of chopping the bolts was.
I should no more remove bolts I can avoid using than I should add bolts where I want them. It would suck for me to remove bolts or fixed gear on longstanding route just because I can solo it; and it would suck to add bolts to the Bachar-Yearian just because I don’t have the sack to climb it.
If the route was done recently (say someone puts in a bolt ladder with a bolt every 3 feet just so anyone can climb El Cap—ok chop it) it would be different. This route is done my friends. Leave it.
Again, I have very strong opinions about climbing style and climbing ethics (and those opinions are much closer to Josh et al. than not). I think the 1970 route is a travesty of sorts, but the first ascensionist decides how much or how little fixed gear goes in, not me.
Brian
|
|
darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
|
|
Brian, thanks for that post, I think most people here would agree with that.
Is the fact that Josh and partner decided to chop without giving a flying f*#k about what locals (the real ones) or the greater international community (let's face it, this is Cerro Torre we're talkin'bout, an icon in the history of mountaineering) thought about it that pisses me off.
They didn't chop ONLY because they couldn't. Not because they realized how wrong it would have been to do it.
darod.
|
|
Anastasia
Trad climber
California
|
|
I don't know much about this subject, but weren't the bolts put up during the original FA of Cerro Torre? If that is the case, than the bolts have historical significance and should not be touched.
Touching them is like tearing up the original U.S. Constitution because it is not on paper. I really hope they are still there respected and untouched.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
From my perspective, the only grounds for not chopping this particular line is the fact that it is one of our most storied sagas and misadventures in a debate/mystery which has raged for decades - it's now firmly a part of our collective history. That and the fact there will never be consensus around such a high profile endeavor. I agree if it were the reverse with Josh and Zack putting them in today with a Hilti and a solar charger - I'd say yank'em. But this is an internationally shared history and any unilateral decision on the part of U.S. climbers would likely be viewed as us exporting a harsh Nicholsonian doctrine with retaliation on a high-profile U.S. route like the Nose not entirely inconceivable. I would be curious to know, though, what percentage of the parties heading up it are commercially guided and what role does that play in any discussion around chopping? If it's significant, then what percentage is with local Argentinean guides?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
I stayed at Clifford's last night but still couldn't get him to post (wait! Should I rephrase that?) anyway it turns out that while his initial reaction was that an attempt to remove the bolts amounted to an assault on historical artifacts, his OWN artifact, the regulator hammered off the compressor by Bridwell which he purchased at the AAC auction for (as memory serves) $800, was buried somewhere in a box in his enormous garage.
I'm not criticizing. It served a charitable cause and Mike is my friend, but I can't help but be amused at the irony. I have to admit that after seeing the film Cumbre! at Telluride at the same showing attended by both Mike and Jello twenty years ago this May, I too would want such an artifact.
The footage of Marco Pedrini soloing the Torre was THE most inspiring climbing feat I've ever seen and at the top he climbs onto the compressor and pantomimes revving a motorcycle!
For some reason knowing that he fell to his death less than 2 years later was deeply moving.
Pedrini used those very bolts to create brilliance!
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Erik (Alpinist Magazine) wrote
"They used some of the belay bolts and fixed anchors. Josh stated that "chopping belay bolts and replacing them with two fixed nuts and a sling doesn't change much."
It sounds from that reporting that the Team didn't use the bolt ladder on the headwall at all, but only the belays. It's a little unclear because "fixed anchors" can mean belay anchors and it can mean lead bolts. Josh's statement about chopping belay bolts gives me the idea that they only used the belay bolts.
This only matters inasmuch as the more of the route the team used, the more hypocritical it would be to chop.
After all, if the elite are tempted to jump on the bolt ladder when time and weather become tight (and that's a huge factor in Cerro Torre ascents), then how can they speak of erasing what they chose to enjoy?
So, if indeed they didn't use the lead bolts and could have used natural anchors, that, at least, shows some consistency in vision.
I have to admire the many well spoken thoughts expressed by fine climbers on this thread. This medium of community communication is valuable. We are managing to evolve beyond the violent sprayfests on the past, and consider resolving differences with wisdom and understanding. Wish our leaders would try that.
Peace
Karl
|
|
maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
Ron,
I'll never forget that movie. The existence of those bolts for the filming almost justifies their presence. Was that frickin' amazing or what? Still one of the three best climbing movies I've ever seen.
Mal
|
|
beefy
Trad climber
Adelaide, Australia
|
|
what movie was it in??
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Now that's a film I'd like to see! I see it's availabe in the EU somewhere as a VHS tape, someone needs to port it over to DVD. Anyone with a copy know who put it out or owns the rights?
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
I'm with DMT, Brian et al on this. But especially Dingus.
It's history, there is no undoing it, it reminds us of all kinds of things about our selves.
Another, humbler example. I wouldn't advocate anybody putting up a new route in Otto's style (Otto's Route, Co Nat Mon) but erasing it would be lunacy. You climb it now and you can't help being in the head of an eccentric (from what will soon be a hundred years ago) climbing at the level of his time, more or less. Drilling a pipe ladder up a six hundred foot tower might not be the way we do it today, but anyone who has worked hard on a long route can identify with that drive and tenacity.
Then when he took his love up his creation to propose marriage, she said "No."
We need to remember these stories.
Didn't we learn various things from Maestri's approach?
Anastasia's point about the sacrosanct nature of the FA is hard to argue with, too.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
I read Rolo's article [linked above] a while back, and it is excellent. It should be required reading for all who post in this thread.
|
|
cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
|
|
Healyje, what's a "Nicholsonian" doctrine?
"You want to chop the bolts? You CAN'T HANDLE the bolts!
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
An expeditionary hybrid of the Monroe Doctrine and Ken Nichol's Connecticut Yankee proclivities.
|
|
alpinist_magazine
climber
|
|
To respond to Karl:
Wharton and Smith skipped all the lead bolts until the final three pitches of the headwall (and obviously the last pitch of soloing to the near-summit), where weather forced them to start clipping.
By "fixed anchor" in my post, I meant a permanent belay/rappel station that is not bolted.
When their variations to the route necessitated making gear anchors, they did. When their climbing brought them to a bolt or fixed belay, they used it. Hope that clarifies the issue. Best,
Erik
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Thanks for the rapid clarification Erik.
Without wanting to beat ya'll over the head with it, I have to note that your initial clarification left out all mention of the team using the lead bolts on the last pitches, even though it was an issue raise, while including info on the use of the belay bolts.
Even in your second clarification, which is much appreciated, you somehow can't mention "They used the bolt ladders on the final pitches." but leave it implied.
Why not spit it out? They set out to erase a route that they later embraced so they could make the summit. If even these elite, who seemingly disapprove of the route, are willing to use the ladders that they would erase, let's learn whatever lesson in there.
None of us are perfect and so even this fine, bold and notable ascent has a certain flaw to it.
Perhaps not as bad as my many flaws, but I don't want it to go unnoticed until nobody is talking about chopping the route further, (even if it's only theoretical because of the work involved.)
Peace
Karl
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
Honest question - how many out there dream of one day trying to summit Cerro Torre ?
I know I do - I think that is one of the most beautiful spires I have ever seen...simply incredible, that such should exist and beckon...
chop, don't chop...common ground is still there somewhere ?
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
I'm waiting for Global Warming to turn it into the El Cap of the Southern Hemisphere.
Sure the pictures are breathtaking, but when the wind is blowing like a hurriicane and the face is plastered with ice, it adds a dimension of misery that I'm too soft for!
But when we can camp on the face like Pete Zabrok and monkey call in the mornings across the sunny stone, I'm there.
If planes are still flying cheap
Peace
Karl
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
nice karl- i love that you are all mentally prepared to tackle the worlds most brutal summits, just as soon as they are more casual!
also, regarding your comments on the alpinist guys comments, this is my favorite line of all:
"where weather forced them to start clipping".
whether or not you are climbing in a certain style is now a weather dependent, game day decision? seems pretty convenient, good thing the party ahead of them didn't have the "vision" to chop the rig!
(just funnin- i know some people take this banter a bit more seriously than i do)
|
|
OW
Trad climber
Patagonia
|
|
"Riley said:
"You guys all suck picking on grammar and spelling."
I've always wondered how comeone can say that? The communications going on here is in written form. If someone can't lucidly present something here, then it should be perfectly okay to give them cr*p."
-----------------------------
Happens every time - critique grammar and spelling and then type in "comeone". Is that porno lingo? So here's some cr*p right back atcha.
Malcolm, I'd like to see you answer your own questions. I do not have the answer. I'd leave Bridwel's bolts. But I don't own it and will never be there. If I was I don't think I'd have the time or energy to chop because I'd probably be freezing my balls off or trying to outrun the next storm or bitching at my frozen ropes.
|
|
OW
Trad climber
Patagonia
|
|
"I'm waiting for Global Warming to turn it into the El Cap of the Southern Hemisphere."
Between then and now, odds are that places like Patagonia will see more intense weather, not sunny and calm. The surface temps of the ocean are increasing and that is causing more violent tropical storms. If that trend continues, there will be even tougher conditions ahead on the big walls in Patagonia. But first, please prove that global warming is really happening and place your proof in context of the last few millenia.
|
|
SavantFandangle
Trad climber
DC Region
|
|
This issue drives home the issues of common dignity and mutual respect in the climbing community in general, not just Patagonia. I do sincerely enjoy a clean, bolt-less line, particularly those at my stomping grounds, Seneca Rocks. That said, I find bolt chopping irresponsible, negligent, arrogant and just plain disrespectable to the climbing community. Bolt choppers not only put their own lives at risk, but also those of the entire climbing community.
For example, on a trip this past fall to the Valley, I was angered by the fact that someone had chopped the bolt on Serenety Crack (the 5.9 section). Yet, the 5.11 variation just to the left had all of its bolts well intact. I found this observation and experience intriguing for numerous reasons.
Climbers again are a community; a family of sorts. Violence and passive-aggressiveness is not acceptable. Resolving conflict in a reasonable manner (over a few beers, of course!) should be the norm for resolution of issues.
Rob Borotkanics, Maryland
|
|
Al Fylak
Mountain climber
Rochester Hills, MI
|
|
Normally I would not post on such an emotionally charged topic, but I am laid up with a shoulder injury so have time on my hands.
I have been around climbing for 28 years and have been reading about the bolt wars seemingly forever. Most of my climbing has been in JTree and Yosemite.
Personally, I welcome every bolt I come upon. Safety is my #1 issue. Even if I don't like the way a bolt looks, or feel it is unnecessay, I will clip it if I have a few biners to spare. Why not? It might save a long fall and gives you some peace of mind .. you never know.
The problem with chopping bolts is that you are saying that your opinion is right and someone else's is wrong. That's a big assumption on a popular route that lots of other folks, who may need/want the bolts, will climb. Besides, who does the route really belong to? The folks that can climb it with the fewest bolts ... I doubt it?
This issue is sort of like going to war. We elect a president and he takes us to Iraq. 49% or more may have disagreed with the decison, but at least, Mr. Bush won the election.
I don't think anyone elected the bolt choppers to act for the rest of the climbing community!
As far as physical fighting and wrecking tents goes ... that obviously does not solve the issue ... just let's folks vent their frustration and anger. One bad act, deserves another?
Well ... I could go on and on but have likely said too much already. Grow up boys and respect other people!
Someday they may chop your route.
Al Fylak
Laid up climber in Michigan
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
I think the last two posters, and in fact everyone who believes no bolt is worthy of chopping, need to rethink that proposition. If the climbing world is now at the threshold where all bolts are good, and where it's good when bolts go into rocks and bad when they come out, then we've crossed a bridge I never thought I'd live to see.
As opposed to a previous poster, risk is my #1 priority. I'm still an old, ground-up, trad climber who climbs for a myriad of reasons like exercising creativity, competency, skill, and vision which all work together synergistically, driven by a central proposition of risk. Remove the risk from climbing and you have still some form of casual, suburban/lifestyle entertainment, but it isn't what I consider climbing. It becomes everything I took up climbing back in the day to get away from.
That such ideas are expressed in the context of one of the proudest pieces of stone on the planet is simply unbelievable to me. No doubt a sorry tide has turned and I almost don't have the words for the saddness some of these comments provoke. Again, I wouldn't chop it for history's sake, but also wouldn't hesitate for a heartbeat without that protective context. And while I may cast my vote against Josh and Zack with regards to chopping this particular line, they have my utmost respect and admiration for staying wild in a time when the world around them is clearly rushing headlong to tame and exploit everything they strive for.
|
|
crotch
climber
|
|
Great thread. I offer more thoughts from another mediocre climber.
To chop or not to chop was a decision to be made ONLY by Maestri's CONTEMPORARIES and only CONTEMPORANEOUSLY.
After 30 years, the Compressor Route belongs to the entire climbing collective. Statements about style should be made on new canvas, and routes that need "correcting" should be corrected while the ink is still fresh.
|
|
mbb
climber
the slick
|
|
What I think is ironic is that they set out to chop this route in order to do it in better style and ended up using the bolt ladder to gain the "summit". If they really had ethical problems with the bolt ladder why didn't they just bail when they could not go any farther without it? It seems like for all of the hype they have been getting they just ended up putting their feet in their mouths.
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
Karl said, "Why not spit it out? They set out to erase a route that they later embraced so they could make the summit. If even these elite, who seemingly disapprove of the route, are willing to use the ladders that they would erase, let's learn whatever lesson in there."
First of all, hats off to those guys for the climbing that they did do and for their quest in fulfilling their vision.
I totally disagree with their objective of erasing the route. Maestri didnt have the tools, techniques or vision that we have today. Each of those things has come because of what we have learned from past generations. Others here have touched on that.
But I am also having a difficult time in this whole reporting thing. My understanding is that they did NOT Summit due to weather. Personally, when I have FAILED to summit due to weather. I called it a failure. However, these failures were almost always more valuable to my growth than successes were. Perhaps it is our culture that calls for a WINNER instead of a failure. A summit instead of a retreat in the face of adversity.
I believe that there must be a standard of honesty in reporting and I was glad to see that Alpinist tried to clear things up. Honesty in reporting should be the goal for all reporting, otherwise we are all just engaged in fantasy.
I was kind of bumbed out that things got cleared up. I had several ascents that I bailed due to weather that I was goin to start claiming as SUMMITED.
One must ask themselves how many routes they have bailed on due to weather, and how many of those bails have you called "Summiting"?
|
|
D.J.
Social climber
Sedona, Arizona
|
|
Wow !
I cannot believe it, two climbers chopping bolts on a excellent route. What next for these two super climbers, Chopping the Leaning Tower West Face Route? I wonder, Royal faced this same problem on Harding's route however, he realize the route had some of the hardest hook moves he has ever done and decide not to chop the entire route.
I remember another excellent Bolted Route in Joshua Tree and a supper climber chopped all the bolts out of Headstone Rock. Why? Because he could climb 5.12 and 5.13 routes. The Riverside Serach and Rescue Team installed the route back in the 60's for aid training. A fine aid route with a cliff hanger move over the top, a great practice route for Direct Aid. Now, gone for ever. Many climber cannot climb 5.12- 5.13 routes, why chop a route becaue it offends you that has been in place for many years? I see the Leaning Tower West Face Route being Chopped someday because of too many bolts and the route will offend someone .
|
|
snooky
climber
|
|
DJ, what your looking at is Bachar syndrome and it sucks.
|
|
BrentA
Gym climber
Roca Rojo
|
|
Applause for Heavyje! Nice post.
For some reason I remember having a conversastion with Mr. Cordes a few years ago (remember he climbed Trango and "almost" that other thing in Pakistan last Summer, both w/ Josh) about summitting, claiming summits, and specifically the Torre. This conversation ebbed and flowed to many hypothetical summit calls around the climbing world. Many ascents stop at the top of the rock on the Torre, either because the snowcap is absurd, or their logic holds that they are standing on top of its highest "permanent" piece.
I pretty clearly remember Kelly saying, "I like Josh's definition".
"When there is nothing left to climb, you are on the summit."
So I would guess Josh has a good gauge of where the summit lies.
I can't imagine heading anyway but down when the weather turns on me in Patagonia (if/when I get there).
Again, really enjoying the thoughts here. If you haven't checked out the Yosemite snowmen thread, you should do that. Good Jah.
|
|
joane
climber
|
|
I wasn't sure about reading this thread on the much debated and divisive bolt chopping controversy but I'm glad I did. It's pretty incredible.
Having read the 200+ posts but having never climbed in Patagonia, I'd just like to add in to the mix that
it's important to get the facts about a reported climb and it totally undermines credibility when reports of it are not accurate or complete, it's just so disappointing.
I think most readers really enjoy knowing about other climbs, big ones or not, and it's great that forums like this are a place where the facts can be checked and challenged.
I don't think it's an empty ego trip to share your own climb info, it's fun , in any activity or industry wanting the respect of your peers is a pretty normal human need.
Another thought--I can't understand why Little Cotton didn't think to put his complaint on the Alpinist website too along with this one, or send it to them directly? It would be fairer to try to find out the answers first then progress to the challenges if they aren't satisfactory. Maybe they would have ignored a request to support the info in the article they published or maybe they would have researched it and corrected it. But there would have been less guessing in any case and so less room for somebody here to be drawn into saying something that really they wouldn't have said based on more facts. It's kind of like the idea of entrapment, or like there's an agenda. Or jumping the gun. So it detracts from the honesty of the discussion.
Also, if the trendin the posts goes back to the brute force rules of engagement verbally on the forum and/or verifying that kind of conduct outside the forum, then it makes the other parts of the society which all of us live in, question whether where/how people climb should be brought more effectively under the law for reasons of "public safety" etc etc. So if you find hostility/aggression climbing out there, forums like this are useful for peer pressure to come up with better ways to fix the problems, better ways than assault and battery. If you are thinking about doing it in foreign cultures where you don't know necessarily what will happen, I think it is really foolish and you are really under a false sense of security.
If the posts that make this kind of thread turn into places that have lynching mob mentalities then I think also there's an increased risk that maybe society in some form or another might find it their business to intervene in what is being discussed in some creative way that then infringes on our freedom in the hills as the Seattle Mountaineers describe it.
So, I think the idea expressed above in the thread at various points about kind of self regulating/educating in that way is good, it's in our common interest. And that was what was pretty amazing, that so many posters stepped in respectfully to bring some order to the court as they say.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
We all climb for our own reasons. Personally, I have trouble with the goalpost mentality that makes a huge difference between climbing 30 feet from the summit and reaching the summit.
It is what it is. It's a fine ascent (except for the bolt intentions) and stands for what it is, given that we finally know it's 30 feet less of an ascent than originally reported.
That 30 feet doesn't negate much in my mind, particularly regarding the compressor route (which didn't go to the summit in the first place did it? or is that open to debate?)
So congrats on all the fine climbing (except for the aspects I don't agree with ;-)
Karl
|
|
Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
So as I see it Alpinist is still defending their position, even though Josh and Zach did not summit and they probably clipped over 50 bolts all told. Where is the story here? Seems like Alpinist is playing a bit of favorites...as I am sure that if this attempt had been made by 2 Slovanians the news would be much different.
|
|
guest
climber
|
|
Can't help but add a thought on something that boggles my mind. Many people have expressed things like the one poster who wrote:
"The problem with chopping bolts is that you are saying that your opinion is right and someone else's is wrong."
and
"I don't think anyone elected the bolt choppers to act for the rest of the climbing community!"
--So, as many people have expressed, anyone is free to place bolts whenever and wherever they want (that's the de facto and sometimes outright notion here). But, what, it's a one-way street? If anyone is free to place a bolt, since nobody owns the rock, they anyone is free to remove it. Common, basic, logic. Of course we temper placing and removing with discussions, reason, etc. But I fully call bullshit on this notion that it's universally wrong to remove a bolt (which I've never done, for the record) yet it's universally OK to place a bolt (I'm not opposed to bolts; I've placed two in my life). WTF? Where's the logic in that?
--Or is it NOT true that nobody owns the rock, rather the locals own the rock? In this case, a great number of routes worldwide are serious offenses, b/c the permanent installations in the rock were put in by foreigners. And f*#k, man, then Maestri, being Italian, is the worst criminal in climbing history! All Josh and Zach did was talk about removing bolts.
--Also, and related to the use of bolts, many people have made it sound like the notion of erasing the Compressor Route is such an elitist thing just b/c Josh and Zach climb harder than most of us. I've rapped down the Compressor Route (we went up a different way, and used the CR to descend), so I've seen if first-hand. An incredible piece of work, a monumental effort, I remember shaking my head, Maestri, what a madman! Of course all that work doesn't make it right, but that's not my point and I'm not expressing an opinion on whether the route should stay or go. BUT, let's be clear: it's not a route where the bolts (all 400 of them) are just there to protect some runout, otherwise unprotected, climbing, like something that only super elite climbers could do. The madman himself installed freakin' bolts every 4 feet up 5.6 sections (and 5.6 in 1970 was *nothing* to "The Spider of the Dolomites"), slabs with huge jugs, bolts right beside perfect cracks, the whole deal. I just want people to realize this as part of the conversation.
--Granted, maybe it's not a Via Ferratta, but relatively speaking it's much closer to a Via Ferratta than any other route on the mountain. Right or wrong? I don't know. But don't climbers get all huffy about cables and sh#t on Half Dome or whatever (sh#t, forgive me if I've got this wrong, I haven't been up or down Half Dome -- in which case other examples could be substituted), because those permanent installations dumb it down, wreck the landscape, allow "tourists" up something they otherwise couldn't do, etc? Certainly worth considering. Many gray areas. Maybe we all just want to draw our elitist lines right below what we're personally capable of. The most incredible summit in the world via an abortion of a route, a total manufactured route, but one that still requires some climbing skill? Hell yeah!
--But what about the workin' man? Your local UPS driver? The dude sloggin' hash at the local truck stop? Shouldn't there be an escalator for him? I maintain -- having been there and seen it first-hand just recently -- that the Compressor Route is closer to an escalator (albeit a pretty f*#kin' cool one in many regards) than a route, within the relative sphere of Cerro Torre. Maybe that's OK. But then, why not put in an escalator? Seriously.
Just some food for thought. Certainly flaws exist in my thinking, much like anyone expressing an opinion, but I haven't seen much of the above even considered yet.
--Kelly
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
I think it's important to keep in mind, in this conversation about what constitutes gaining "The Summit", that the climbers themselves were not claiming anything, true or false, and that it was someone else's 3rd hand initial reports that actually announced the details.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
Really disturbing that Alpinist did Not report the vote or the attempted chopping??? Skipping a bunch of bolts on a trade rt may be hard climbing but it's really not ground breaking news.. attempting to chop a trade rt is front page material... The omission of the chopping attempt and the plan to dammage hangers after the failed crow bar episode was either poor shoddy journalism or worse, pure propoganda.. WTF???
|
|
Brian
climber
Cali
|
|
Above, someone wrote: What I think is ironic is that they set out to chop this route in order to do it in better style and ended up using the bolt ladder to gain the "summit". If they really had ethical problems with the bolt ladder why didn't they just bail when they could not go any farther without it?
Compare this to Peter Croft (as related in one of those old climbing vids, maybe Moving Over Stone?) when trying to climb some hard, bolted crack (I can't recall, maybe VanBelle O Drome?). I'm paraphrasing from memory, but Croft said something like: "I decided to climb the route as if the bolts were not there. Not, climb it and see what it was like and maybe clip the bolts if I felt like I needed it--literally pretend the bolts are not there and climb. If I can't make it without the bolts, I don't make it."
Brian
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
re: the escalator argument. There are many places in the world where trams, via ferratas, and such have been installed to summits, and huge numbers of people enjoy taking them and use them to get closer to nature in the best way that they, as aging/overweight/handicapped...whatever the limitation may be...working schlubs can. A lot of times I support this b/c those same folks, in turn will be more apt to want to protect our resources themselves.
Maybe those access installations "shouldn't" exist by todays standards, but they do and many love them. And if you make the choice to take them down without including the folks that use them, you're going to piss them off quite a lot. And, unless you actually own the land and tram, you'd be labled a terrorist and thrown in jail.
You've got a lot more power to positively influence whether or not new trams go up on different mountains than you do to erase the ones that already exist.
Perhaps it's better to pick those battles?
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
Kelley. Thing is that the compressor rt is part of history. Its there for folks not as good as you to get on a serious piece of stone. Many climbers dream of getting up that thing and have beeen for 30+ years... Call it a tourist rt if you want but its established and the goal of many climbers throughout the world. If someone were to drill their way up a new line in simelear fashion today it would most likly not be tolerated as standards have changed but that is compareing apples and oranges. Compressor rt is part of history. If you really want to make a statement establish something new. Don't chop the little guys dreams.. JMOP
|
|
Brian
climber
Cali
|
|
Kelly,
Another good post. I don't know how to boldface script on this thing, so excuse the CAPS in responding. I'm not "yelling," just distinguishing your questions from my answers.
I can't believe I am weighing in on this again! Cars busted and I'm stuck in LA...
You wrote: But I fully call bullshit on this notion that it's universally wrong to remove a bolt (which I've never done, for the record) yet it's universally OK to place a bolt (I'm not opposed to bolts; I've placed two in my life). YOU ARE RIGHT HERE. PLACING AND REMOVING BOLTS SHOULD BOTH BE DONE WITH CARE.
--Or is it NOT true that nobody owns the rock, rather the locals own the rock? NO ONE OWNS THE ROCK. All Josh and Zach did was talk about removing bolts. WHICH SEEMS LIKE A BAD IDEA (BUT SEE MORE COMMENTS BELOW).
--BUT, let's be clear: it's not a route where the bolts (all 400 of them) are just there to protect some runout, otherwise unprotected, climbing, like something that only super elite climbers could do. The madman himself installed freakin' bolts every 4 feet up 5.6 sections (and 5.6 in 1970 was *nothing* to "The Spider of the Dolomites"), slabs with huge jugs, bolts right beside perfect cracks, the whole deal. I just want people to realize this as part of the conversation. THIS DOES MAKE A VERY BIG DIFFERENCE TO MY OPINION ON THE MATTER, AND I DID NOT REALIZE IT WHEN POSTING ALL MY COMMENTS ABOVE. THE WORK REQUIRED TO REMOVE THEM STILL SEEMS SILLY, BUT BOLTS RIGHT NEXT TO CRACKS THAT ANY GYM CLIMBER COULD PROTECT DOES SEEM ESPECIALLY WRONG. THANKS MUCH FOR POINTING THIS OUT.
 Maybe we all just want to draw our elitist lines right below what we're personally capable of. THIS IS CLEARLY A TENDENCY FOR ALL OF US. GOOD POINT.
--But what about the workin' man? Your local UPS driver? The dude sloggin' hash at the local truck stop? Shouldn't there be an escalator for him? NO, OF COURSE NOT. I maintain -- having been there and seen it first-hand just recently -- that the Compressor Route is closer to an escalator (albeit a pretty f*#kin' cool one in many regards) than a route, within the relative sphere of Cerro Torre. MORE DETAILS PLEASE. STEVE SEEMS TO THINK THIS IS A HARD ROUTE, AND THIS IS COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO JUST PULLED OFF THAT CRAZY TRIFECTA TRAVERSE. IF HE HAS BEEN UNABLE TO MAKE THE SUMMIT VIA THE 1970 ROUTE, I REALLY THINK THE IMAGE OF AN ESCALATOR IS WAY, WAY, WAY OFF. HOWEVER, I'VE NEVER SEEN THE ROUTE, AND THE DESCRIPTION OF IT DOES SOUND LIKE A LINE OF TRASH AND FIXED JUNK... Maybe that's OK. But then, why not put in an escalator? Seriously. BECAUSE AN ESCALATOR WOULD BE WRONG. WHERE ON THE SPECTRUM BETWEEN AN "ESCLATOR" AND "LEAVE ABSOLUTLY NO TRACE" IS THE HAPPY MEAN? I DON'T KNOW.
Again, sorry for all the CAPS. Anyone want to tell me how to do italics or boldface type?!?
Brian
|
|
Take!Take!
Trad climber
Durango Colorado
|
|
Good grief, really! Who gives a crap about grammar, paragraphs, and spelling. The article was interesting as hell. Was great to hear about something going on, from someone that was right there. If you have to have paragraphs to follow a story, you need to go back to 5th grade English! Fun read "Little Cotton-er"
|
|
Mr.T
Big Wall climber
topanga
|
|
Kelly-
What a great idea! "Chop" the cables on halfdome... Fill in those huge holes with epoxy... I'm serious. Imagine topping out on half dome on a summers day and having it all to yourself! I agree wholeheartedly.
And you said it all too well: the notion that placing bolts is OK but pulling them is wrong - I think that's way out of line.
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
Golsen wrote:
I was kind of bumbed out that things got cleared up. I had several ascents that I bailed due to weather that I was goin to start claiming as SUMMITED.
LOL
Best line in this thread so far, in my knott-so humble opinion.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
--So, as many people have expressed, anyone is free to place bolts whenever and wherever they want (that's the de facto and sometimes outright notion here). But, what, it's a one-way street? If anyone is free to place a bolt, since nobody owns the rock, they anyone is free to remove it. Common, basic, logic. Of course we temper placing and removing with discussions, reason, etc. But I fully call bullshit on this notion that it's universally wrong to remove a bolt (which I've never done, for the record) yet it's universally OK to place a bolt (I'm not opposed to bolts; I've placed two in my life). WTF? Where's the logic in that?
you can't seriously be comparing any old bolts, placed by any old climber on any old route, to those bolts in particular, can you?
and regarding your escalator/via ferrata description- well you have seen it so you know the deal, but as of right now and until i learn more, "I fully call bullshit" that steve schneider was all bent because some bolts on some juggy 5.6 slab or next to a perfect crack were gonna be chopped. i have climbed a lot of schneider's routes (or tried to in some cases, but like someone else in this thread, i was about to call them all onsights...), and i have yet to be left w/ the impression that he was into clipping his way up juggy 5.6 slabs.
"Of course we temper placing and removing with discussions, reason, etc"
that's really the heart of the issue, is it not?
unilaterally acting on one's own "vision" (thus the gW inspired 'cowboy' label by the local quoted upthread somewhere), vs what you suggest in that sentence is a given...
|
|
raymond phule
climber
|
|
Is detailed information about the route avialable on the internet, for example a topo?
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
The final bolt ladder of the Nose goes free at 12b. Probably a lesser level of skill than required to do the compressor variations in an intense place like Patagonia. Why not chop the Nose ladder if we're all free to remove and add bolts as we please?
And, what about the flip side. Say the Nose just went up and some hotshots didn't drill a final ladder but just a 12b face climb. Would I be free to put a bolt ladder up there so the rest of us could climb it?
We have to work together and at least get close to consensus. It's tough and one of the principles that have made it a tad easier on us all is respect for the first ascent. I wish there was a better way, I'd love to hear it.
peace
Karl
|
|
Madzooks2
Sport climber
Bend Oregon
|
|
I Just put up a new route, and I did it with no shirt. So I therefore decree that no one is allowed to climb my route wearing a shirt. If you wanna climb a route free, don't clip the bolts. Don't be jackasses and cut bolts or start fights.
|
|
cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
|
|
So, speaking of that, when is someone going to ask Maestri what he thinks about these shenanegans?
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
Not to be a pain in the ass. But this is from the AAJ article from Rolando.
It is not for journalists to doubt the word of climbers, but what they can and should do is to obtain convincing accounts of climbs before according them proper credit. It is essential that
magazine and journal editors are not credulous, for we all rely on the accuracy of such records.
Might this not be pertinent to Zack and Josh's account as well? This is not to doubt, merely to point out that when the going got tough it sounds like they resorted to the very bolts that they had originally planned on yanking. This is not bad, merely human...
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
Not sure I’m "committed to the core" enough to start including a crowbar as part of my alpine climbing rack.
-Brian in SLC
ps: Kelly, good posts. And, great read in the lastest issue of Rock and Ice!
|
|
darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
|
|
fatty, you need to READ the whole thing to realize how WRONG you are....
|
|
mbb
climber
the slick
|
|
If we have all learned one thing from this lengthy discussion it must be that it has become perfectly clear that snooky has a boner for bachar.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
whatever pal, you can continue to ignore the international community's perception in this (or any other) matter, but when an argentinian local calls these guys cowboys, he's not picturing cowboys and indians, he's thinking that americans could give a rats ass what anyone else thinks about anything, no matter where they happen to be. i know it's been 2 or 3 decades since you ever climbed anything, and maybe in walnut creek or at your PNAC meetings that is not so apprent, but if you ever actually went anywhere and spoke to anyone, that's what you would probably hear.
edit-
if you have something more to say, edit your above post or email me directly, but don't make this thread another itchy and scratchy show.
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
Boner For Bachar™... sounds like a good name for a route!
|
|
Broken
climber
Texas
|
|
Not many have said that they think the Compressor Route should be chopped.
I do.
Of course, I'm a nobody, but one person's opinion shouldn't decide this anyway. This is the type of thing that affects the entire climbing community, and people bristle when they believe someone is making decisions for them without consulting the community...
If a climber's meeting down there was 10-1 against, then I don't think it should be chopped. So I think Freddie Wilkinson was right - for now, the Argentines get to decide.
However, if a solid international consensus could be developed (a series of meetings?), then perhaps the bolts could be removed someday. This would be wonderful.
Why?
Because then Cerro Torre would truly stand as one of Earth's most inaccessible summits.
Inaccessible summits are, after all, one of our rarest commodities.
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
Thanks to Steve S. for posting up and being a humble enough guy to admit where he was wrong. Admitting you were wrong doesn't make other people right and ultimately it allowed him to make good out of this whole situation. Big kudos.
I realize I'm late to the party and that this has more or less resolved but it didn't seem like too many people were weighing in for Bean early in the thread and so I wanted to present perhaps a slightly more informed view of Bean Bowers. I know Bean from Prescott College where we were students and he was ultimately one of my instructors. I've climbed with him and camped with him, though not in several years. He's an extremely driven guy, but very smart and very capable. He's strong as hell and it doesn't suprise me that he would go a little nuts once his temper got fired up, but he's no thug and no jerk. If I were in trouble in the mountains he's probably the number one guy I'd want helping me in the whole world, bum ankle and all. I hope that for those of you that don't know him personally but meet him some day keep an open mind about who he is. I'm sure given the opportunity he would happily admit that he went overboard with Steve. Bean's a human just like the rest of us, and bound to make mistakes.
|
|
tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
|
|
Alpinist_magazine said
Wharton and Smith skipped all the lead bolts until the final three pitches of the headwall (and obviously the last pitch of soloing to the near-summit), where weather forced them to start clipping.
No, sorry. Since they were rapping the route anyway, the weather didn't force them to start clipping the bolts.
Descending from there was an option.
|
|
Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
not that my vote matters either, but i'm with broken. untouchable summits are a commodity that grows more rare every year. if we can't correct the mistakes of the past, then we'll probably be out in my lifetime.
at least josh's style has denied many of the whiners on this thread the ability to clip their way up the flame, that's something.
|
|
bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
Newsflash - I don't think I would have removed the bolts even if I could have free climbed or clean aided all that section of rock. I am not experiencing a boner...(at the moment).
|
|
atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
|
|
Untouched summits? I thought the thread was about Cerro Torre.
Thanks to Steve for standing up for the compressor route. Re-writing history's cool, unless you re-write it with bullsh#t. Cool idea and effort to send sans bolts, but no need to remove em to f^%$ up others experience repeating Maestri's line.
|
|
Dusty
Trad climber
up & down highway 99
|
|
Props to Shipoopi for his post. I wouldn't be too recalcitrant about what you did, bro... it's a passionate issue and you're a passionate guy. If someone can't forgive you for being yourself and caring about something then f**k them. It sounds like you've already come to terms with the whole thing and forgiven the other dudes... so good on you, yr a class act as usual. More importantly, did you make it Paine this year??
|
|
Al Fylak
Mountain climber
Rochester Hills, MI
|
|
Kelly:
Eventhough we have different opinions on rights to place and chop bolts, I did enjoy your response .. thought provoking for sure.
One problem with the idea that "choppping is as right a placing a bolt (paraphased)" is that the chopped bolt can then be replaced, and chopped, and replaced, and ... we have an ugly mess and alot of holes?! I guess this follows with a theory of electronics that a hole can not be created or destroyed, but only moved.
I do believe that some bolts are unnecessary, but as many folks have already said .. just don't clip it.
And chopped bolts (holes) are about as ugly as unnecessary bolts. Most folks would not bother to fill the hole.
For what it's worth,
Al Fylak
|
|
wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
|
|
I agree with the poster from Italy. Whether one agrees that the Compressor Route is a worthy route or not, keep in mind that it was done even before Patagonia was a name on a stylish outdoor garment. Very few people had heard of Patagonia at the time it was climbed.
While I do not admire the *style* in which it was climbed, I think it is pretty arrogant to characterize Maestri as not up to the challenge of climbing Cerro Torre, or to characterize the Compressor Route as anything but a demanding alpine climb.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
History vs sacrilege. Sacrilege vs history. Yada yada. We're blue in the face already.
What I want to hear about is this rumor that Bachar is taking viagra.
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
she is a thing of beauty...
|
|
alaskan
climber
|
|
just back from 4 months in argentina.it seemed something of this order was coming when,in december,while having a discussion with a famous patagonia climber, i heard of this intention.at the same time i was schooled about how if you do an ascent in patagonia in a style other than that sanctioned by the famous climbers it actually doesnt count.i mean i thought it was interesting but i couldnt really care too much because i mostly just wanted to enjoy my trip to the other end of the world and im just a cragger anyway.it seems like there would be more fun things to do in such a great place thats really expensive to get too,but i guess if your sponsored by the companies you represent,and moneys no problem,what better way to get in the press than step on the entire climbing communities toes,declare yourself the supreme leader of style,and piss everyone off,especially the locals who you would never have to see again because they live 8000 miles and a difficult visa process away from you.its brilliant really.and it must make the companies proud to see their boys out spreading the word.as for the fight i think it should have been a scheduled event,i do enjoy watching a good ultimate match from time to time and i think its a great sport.i also think the park service there,which is fast becoming regulated and controlled in a more yosemite fashion[i.e. the destuction of the historical bridwell hut with no discussion with the support of famous patagoia climbers] must also be impressed by this statement by people who are willing to take control and tell the rest of us lame climbers how its going to be.we have been lacking that leadership for some time now.its amazing we've been so stylisticly lost for so long.and lastly i really appreciate the fact that these amazing famous people,who's skills ill never in several lifetimes hope to emulate,and who care about the mountains more than anyone else in the world,would take the time to bring the same vibes and dramas that prevail at our great areas in north america and europe to this corner of the world so we wouldnt feel out of place or like we were in a foriegn place or anything uncomfortable like that.thanks guys,really cool.i mean i rarely climb anything higher than 30 feet but what an inspiration to be more like one of these big mountain gods who know exactly how everything should be and arent afraid,in a time when people are getting slaughtered wholesale in asia and other places and theres so many other serious topics to get wrapped in,to devote so much energy to this cause,to see to it the rest of us follow their lead,cudos brah,,,,oh yea nice job on the alaska book,but unfortunately it only covers a few routes in the ALASKA RANGE,which is one of several large mountain ranges in alaska.wheres the rest of the climbs in the state?although i realize most climbers think alaska is somewhere near talkeetna,you could at least have some wrangells or st eliases or brooks ranges or coast ranges ,so we would know where to climb up here,i mean if your going to name a guide book "alaska" and all.nice photos though.wheres the boulders?
|
|
cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
|
|
.... the rest of us have to... follow suit.... and... get slaughtered wholesale? Like people in Asia? I don't think the climbing gods want that.
Okay, not what you meant, but still a little confusing. Otherwise excellent rant.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
So, uh ... Snooky? You are beginning to sound like a really pathetic whiner. If you have an issue with John, why not take it up with him directly via email?
Or if you have an issue with his past bolt-related practices, then why not describe specific situations, and ask him what was up with them, and how he feels about things now?
To take shots at John Bachar - arguably "our" brassiest-balled free soloist along with Peter Croft - whilst hiding behind a anonymous identity is the most cowardly move of all, not to mention demonstrating to all of us how microscopically small your own bollocks are.
Cheers,
Pete [of modest bollock-size, and the bollocks of whom usual shrivel when approaching the base of El Cap for yet another wall season]
Karl - yeah, baby! Here's to global warming!
|
|
Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
The topo says it ALL.....no summit for you!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Thanks Clint for the topo.
You are always the master of finding useful information.
|
|
Lando
climber
Tulsa
|
|
SO....ALL I WANT TO KNOW IS....DID SHINGO SUMMIT FITZ FINALLY???????
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
The topo gives me the impression that there are big grids of bolts blanketing certain areas of the rock. Is that just for shading, or do all the little x's really mean bolts?
Edit...to make it clear that I stay far away from snow in case the x's are a snow/ice thing?
|
|
darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
|
|
Melissa, the little x's are both, to mark bolts and to mark snowfields, so those areas are that, not just a bunch of bolts....
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
That's very confusing from the point of view of this looky-lou!
|
|
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
|
|
Random tidbit:
One thing I found interesting about the "90 meter (bolt) traverse" is that appeared to me that Maestri bolted out right rather than stay on the ridge (as the British had done before) simply to stay out of the wind. It is a very sheltered place, relatively speaking.
|
|
Gregory Crouch
Social climber
Goleta, California
|
|
Donini thinks it's a via ferrata?
His memory's worse than I thought.
Maestri probably lied about his route; Jim's definitely lying about his age.
What a bunch of morons we all are.
As I said above: anemomania
|
|
guest
climber
|
|
Yeah, Melissa, like Darod said, it's some of both with the X symbols. But ya can kind of get a feel for it by tracing along from belay to belay and figuring out where the snowpatches are, and in doing so ya realize what a mind-boggling obsession the guy had -- about 400 bolts! Talk about obsessed. Good thing his obsession wasn't with something like being a serial killer or whatever, or we'd all be in trouble. Took two seasons worth of work, if I have it right, to utterly pummel the thing into submission. And then he chopped the final bit himself on his descent so nobody could repeat it. All this in part to "prove" his 1959 claim, of climbing an exponentially harder and more improbably route in a style light-years ahead of the day. Right.
As an aside, I've noticed mention that 1970 was different from today -- indeed, true, and it's a worthy point to consider, applying today's standards (which will soon seem antiquated) to a different era. But even then it was widely considered a travesty. The great, old, British mag Mountain soon after ran a cover story entitled “Cerro Torre, a Mountain Desecrated.” But, over time and for better or worse, it seems that enough people have been psyched to have a relatively accessible way up an otherwise unimaginably inhospitable peak, albeit by over-the-top means according to nearly any worldwide standards (even in 1970), that it gained acceptance over time. Thus, it seems, much of the public stance softened. Not all, of course, as we still see today. It brings up interesting thoughts regarding what we seek in the mountains to begin with, and what we'll accept if the peak is beautiful enough and we want to climb it, regardless of the means or the route. Is the Everest mess, with its deservedly derided three-ring circus of people who just want to get to the top, no matter how, much different? Perhaps some similarities in mentality there, no? (Aw geez, my "no" sure opens me up to be blasted with rotten tomatoes -- no?)
--Kelly
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
"And then he chopped the final bit himself on his descent so nobody could repeat it."
Interesting, ..... did they find the bolt holes or evidence of the bolts he chopped?
|
|
James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
|
|
The hens are clucking in the coop again.
Hope the conflict resolves itself and Bean doesn't beat anyone else up (He's burly).
|
|
guest
climber
|
|
Werner,
Sounds like there were some broken/smashed bolts, and then some blankness. I can't remember where I heard the details, but I could find more sources if you like. Based on what Bridwell and Brewer found on their 1979 first complete (to summit) ascent of the SE Ridge, and maybe other evidence (including Maestri's own reports admitting not going up the mushroom, with his high-point suspected to be even lower than he reported), it appears that Maestri didn't reach the final snow slopes, either, but retreated a short bit below the top of the headwall. Unless, of course, he did a quick switch into some futuristic aid climbing after placing 400 bolts to get to there... From Bridwell's feature in the 1980 AAJ:
"Looking up, I saw seven broken bolts leading up and slightly right, but 80 feet of blank granite stretched between the last bolt and the summit snow. My God, I thought, Maestri must have nailed 80 feet of ice tenuously bound to smooth rock. It was a bad joke and inconsistent with the magazine articles. I took out the small bolt kit and went to work placing aluminum dowels, knifeblades and copperheads. I thought I was climbing very slowly. Steve boosted my morale by telling me I was moving fast
and to go for it. Finally, I could almost touch the ice. One last copper-head and I was able to chop a groove in an ice-filled crack and place a friend. It held and I started free-climbing, traversing left with my feet on steep friction and the pick of my hammer in the ice above. I pulled myself onto the summit snowfield. Balancing on one foot and then the other, I carefully donned my crampons and finished the lead. The summit would
be an easy walk, and I wondered why Maestri and his friend hadn’t gone to the top."
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
"And then he chopped the final bit himself on his descent so nobody could repeat it."
Interesting, ..... did they find the bolt holes or evidence of the bolts he chopped?
if i recall correctly - when maestri spoke in fort collins he said he chopped the last line of bolts on his way down. when several members of the audience expressed obvious displeasure at this, he said they left the compressor there, go back and re-bolt it yourself if you don't like it...
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Hell
|
|
Also in the Bridwell AAJ article was a line where Jim marvels at the compressor and how hauling it up there was a feat comparable to Hannibal crossing the Alps.
Not to many climbers are hauling 200 pound machines with months worth of gasoline up 1000m granite towers these days...
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
Maestri would fit in quite well here on Supertopo. Here are some excerpts of an interview:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0604/whats_new/cesare-maestri.html
Can I ask you a specific question? How do you explain that there are no bolts on or above the Col of Conquest?
Listen very carefully: When we attacked it in 1959, the north face of Cerro Torre was a solid mass of snow and ice. We went up it. Egger was the greatest ice climber in the world. We took advantage of this because the weather had been bad for three weeks and Cerro Torre was a sheet of ice. . . .
[Maestri reels off a string of obscenities.] But I don't give a [expletive] about all this. It has already been covered, goddamn it to hell! You can't understand.
How do you explain the controversy surrounding 1959?
It is created by all those sons of bitches. I am not a son of a bitch. In my life, in my whole life, I never told a lie. Everyone knows I am sincere, I am loyal, I never tried to destroy someone in order to make headlines. I made headlines because I was the strongest solo climber in the world. Do you understand?
Certainly a spirited guy. Can someone invite him to the taco?
|
|
wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
|
|
Wow. Maestri sounds like he has a worse temper than Bean.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
"Not too many climbers are hauling 200 pound machines with months worth of gasoline up 1000m granite towers these days..."
Hmmmmm, that's not a bad idea. I have always thought about bringing along a propane-powered fridge, and of course a heater for those cooler nights.
|
|
pc
climber
East of Seattle
|
|
Funny post Radical. The guy clearly has issues. All language related?
F*#k you, no f*#k me, what were we talking about?
|
|
Loomis
climber
Blava nie, ty kokot!
|
|
Wow! This is better than a movie...
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
|
|
^^ as long as David Carradine doesn't cut the rope at the end...
|
|
Fly'n Brian
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas
|
|
its a man made path in the first place. the first ascensionist usually decides what hardware is necessary.... definitely not a statement of climbing expertise to ascend the compressor route. it's so hard to prove how good you are these days:) looks like josh and zach were really able to make some news.
i can see why steve was pissed. beans is a ...uh...well..
i'm so glad i don't climb or socialize anymore!
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
"i'm so glad i don't climb or socialize anymore!"
The socializing thing, I can understand...I sort of quit every so often myself.
But did you really quit climbing? I hope you're not hurt.
|
|
sierracanon
Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
Hey Twisted...
I totally agree on the spelling, grammar, etc. But then, you should know it's not spelled grammer... C for you too...
|
|
piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
|
|
"definitely not a statement of climbing expertise to ascend the compressor route"
I disagree.
While this may be true for all the badasses of the world, most climbers would list the Compressor Route among the most demanding routes that they have ever climbed.
5.10, A3, totally sketchy ice/snow 'climbing', all alpine and with severe weather threatening to appear within an hour or two on any day... seems like expert terrain to me.
Brad
|
|
princesa
Big Wall climber
Puebla
|
|
I was also at the meeting in Chalten.
I thought Steve Sneider looked pathetic: he appeared to be looking for sympathy for his fall off the sidewalk.
His real problem is that he is just another arrogant gringo that thinks he can go to another country and dictate new rules.
However, I am mexican and I offer him a consolation prize: The mexican climbing federation has decided to remove the bolts from Logical Progression on El Gigante in Chihuahua,Mexico. I invite him to help me. Let's see if he really has what it takes.
Ixchel Foord.
|
|
clustiere
Trad climber
Durango, CO
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2007 - 04:20pm PT
|
Lets beat on steve and Bean and put em in a situation where they need to figh together to save their lives, like in Pulp fiction
|
|
coward
Boulder climber
Boulder, Wyoming
|
|
|
Mar 19, 2007 - 04:31pm PT
|
This is an impressive thread. Lots of people have weighed in on the subject of whether or not the chopping of the Compressor Route on Cerro Torre would be justified under certain circumstances. Quite a few of these folks have actually climbed this beauty. My question is this; How many people have climbed Cerro Torre to the the very summit (including the mushroom for the full tick) and rappelled to the ground using a decent route other than the 1970 route? Has it ever been done?? And if the Compressor Route has been used every single time, then doesn't it have some additional value (other than being historical, relatively safe, and a unanimously fun route in a beautiful place that many have enjoyed over the years)?
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Mar 19, 2007 - 04:43pm PT
|
The first ascent of Cerro Torre to its summit, by the Lecco Spiders in 1974, descended by the route of ascent, not the Compressor Route.
|
|
GRJ
climber
Juneau AK
|
|
|
Feb 25, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
|
This is an old debate, but it is a new forum for me so I thought I would throw in my two cents. All the right people addressed the c*#k fight gossipy end of this, but the to chop or not to chop is a debate that will out last all of us. A few things that I consider when thinking about, bolts, history, and my own path through the mountains.
Bolts are everywhere, they added them to the nose recently...why? What about the next generation, and the next shouldn't we try to alleviate the burden that was passed on to us. There are plenty of bolts on natural routes....stop placing them.
History is supposed to help us learn from others mistakes. Is the Russian death squad going to fly a 160lb compressor to the North Side of the Latok 1 and desecrate another peak. Maybe, they don't care who's country it is. For some what happened on Cerro Torre in the 70's is a great reminder of our failures in the mountains, but for Joe climber it can the grandest adventure. It is a neat idea to "restore a mountain," but to re-climb that route I have no doubt that there will be bolts. So it is really isn't worth discussing
I was putting together a grant application recently and decided to see if I could find the peaks I was looking for. I got a detailed arial view of the Eastern Karakoram. The world is shrinking, there is almost zero true wilderness left. People have grown so comfortable that they can afford "hobbies" like climbing. Travel is cheaper and we are rapidly digging out every cliff and waterfall left on earth that a person could climb. We need to be responsible and held accountable for our impact in the mountains. Otherwise two generations from now there will be so many bolts, fixed lines, tat, poop ect. that the wilderness adventure we find all over now will vanish (with the possible exception of antarctic climbing, pretty rugged down there).
I have made my mistakes and I hold myself accountable. They won't be repeated. I think most people feel the same. I say leave the bolts, though my opinion doesn't really matter, the Compressor route really doesn't have the same allure as some of the other routes down there. Anyway, take care, be safe, peace.
Ryan Johnson
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Feb 25, 2008 - 05:19pm PT
|
Should be interesting when it becomes time to replace the bolts. Maybe the 'compressor' climb could be recreated, surely in the age of the internet someone could find the same vintage compressor in working condition. You know, like recreating Mallory and Irvine's Everest attempt. I'm guessing a combo of the History Channel, MTV, and 'Urban Climber' would jump at the chance to fund the project. Stallone would of course want to play both Maestri and Bean Bowers in the historical vignettes detailing the mixed history of the route.
|
|
Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2008 - 03:18am PT
|
"I just want to be the dog that serves the master."
Who is serving whom?
(i.e. who is p@@ping, and who picks up the p@@p?)
Brutus
Edited to add: It always seems to come down to the definition of "real" climbing.
Cerro Torre ain't no Via Ferrata.
Chopping is B^llsh!t.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2008 - 07:50pm PT
|
if we're gonna argue about something...
|
|
Brew-master
Mountain climber
El Chalten, Argentina
|
|
|
Mar 20, 2008 - 10:49am PT
|
Please be understanding of my poor English
My memory is clouded and says the following below; maybe the chief people could verify them.
Josh and Zack upon descending and reaching high camp reported to Steve and Dave that they had gotten only to “…” on the route. Steve and Dave while on the route had seen them much higher. Steve said to Dave like “something’s not right their hiding something” and Steve descended to the main base camp with this on his mind and learned of the bolt removal mission was more than a rumor.
First Josh and Zach denied any bolt removal, and then said they attempted to remove a bolt but failed, then said they removed a Maestri bolt at a belay/rappel station.
Bean, a guest in Argentine has summitted by using the lead bolts and voted for the immediate removal of the bolts which opposed the other vote to hold off for the time being on bolt removal and give time for the Park officials, Argentine government, Argentinean climbing community, and World climbing community as a whole to address the issue.
When Bean confronted Steve the Lyman Spitzer Award was spoke of. The American Alpine Club gives big money to their best climbers each year, a grant called the Lyman Spitzer Award. Josh and Bean had applied together for a grant to climb the North Ridge of Latok I in Pakistan. For Bean, big money for an expedition was at stack should the voting committee get quickly informed of Josh’s actions.
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2012 - 01:56am PT
|
Groundhogs day.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 265 of total 265 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!