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Messages 1 - 20 of total 25 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
mooch

Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
Dec 20, 2006 - 06:20pm PT
CMac.....you catchin' all this?
Slider_up

Ice climber
Irvine, CA
Dec 20, 2006 - 06:37pm PT
Yeah this was all over the BASE Zone over on dropzone. Why these guys told a complete stranger of their intentions to BASE is beyond me. A jump from the Captain should be some super, duper clandestine sh#t.

Sucks for them. . . . .
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 21, 2006 - 01:29am PT
There was a time that BASE was legal in The Valley for a short experimental time, then the sh#t hit the fan, something happened, jumpers didn't follow the rules, and went ape. It could have been different. It should have been different. They should be able to jump at a designated time in the morning without going bandido. They could even rotate jumping sites around the valley to change up the experience for BASE jumpers and minimize impact throughout the year. It is almost like a little secret war between BASE jumpers and the NPS that has been going on for years now. It is sad really.

The Hang Gliding community has managed to follow the rules and have enjoyed many years of flying as a result. I hear it is an incredible experience to fly off the Glacier Point launch and soar for a while and land in the meadows. The view is awesome. They don't let them thermal during the day, only early morning pre-thermal flights. But we could stay up all day no doubt if they did.

I hope one day the NPS can see that paraglider pilots will do the same and abide by the rules, we are in the same organization (USHPA), and allow us and give us a chance to prove our worth.

We are worthy. NPS do you hear me? PARAGLIDER PILOTS ARE WORTHY! We're not scoff-laws. We will follow the same rules as the HG pilots which have a proven record. You could even do a lottery system to spread out the use and share the flying experience.

Does Werner know someone or have any pull in this regard? Werner? W-E-R-N-E-R????

WBraun

climber
Dec 21, 2006 - 01:33am PT
None Klimmer none.

I'm a nobody here.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 21, 2006 - 01:52am PT
Thanks Werner. It was worth asking. I believe it will someday happen legally.

And you ARE somebody in Yosemite Valley. Are you kidding me!
Burns

Trad climber
Arlington, VA
Dec 21, 2006 - 01:26pm PT
I have a little bit of an issue with the way this was handled by the ranger. Assume that the law against BASE jumping exists because jumping is a risk to the jumper and/or innocent bystanders. If the ranger believed that the jumper honestly intended to carry out the crime, then he should have prevented the crime and protected the jumpers and the bystanders. Instead, he allowed the crime to occur so that he could punish the crime. If the ranger's duty is to protect the health and well being of the park visitors, then by allowing the crime to occur and not making any effort to stop it the ranger was derelict in his duty. That is just my opinion. I spoke with a friend with some legal expertise about this issue, and he explained to me that although it would be virtually impossible to go after the ranger for any criminal negligence/deriliction of duty, there is the possibility of civil liability in this case had the jumper been hurt. I got the 'good lawyer' caveat, meaning that it isn't exactly clear and it would be hard to win, but it is within the realm of possibility to pursue that course (since there were no actual damages/injuries in this case, there is nothing to pursue).

Anyway, my point is really that I'm a bit upset that the ranger's primary concern was arresting someone for a crime rather than preventing the crime from occurring. If he had so much as said to these guys (after they admitted to what they planned to do): 'Sorry fellas, but I am a ranger, and if you jump, I'll be waiting down there to arrest you', he likely could have prevented the jump. Hell, he could have even arrested them for 'attemped illegal air delivery' on the spot. Its hard for the NPS to make a case that the rangers are here to protect you and not out to get you when something is handled this way. I certainly hope that the ranger's supervisor has a chat with him about this.
Jerry Dodrill

climber
Bodega, CA
Dec 21, 2006 - 01:52pm PT
Good point Burns. Preventing the crime from occuring would be the logical course of action unless you just needed to up your arrest numbers. You'd think they would have learned their lesson after that one jumper drowned while they were chasing him a few years back.

Couldn't Lobo's lie be considered entrapment?
WBraun

climber
Dec 21, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
What lie, he was off duty. He's not a ranger at that time :-)
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Dec 21, 2006 - 02:05pm PT
There's no entrapment if the LE didn't induce the person into the criminal act.

But I'm sure they wanted the bust, to discourage more el cap BASE. I wonder how often it gets jumped, I'd bet quite a bit.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 21, 2006 - 02:18pm PT
Like I said, it seems like a little war and one upmanship between the NPS and BASE jumpers. This little war should be stopped.

Make peace and come out with a plan that is good for all involved. It will save $, time, hassle, and even lives. Some how I think the rangers get a kick out of the chase, it makes them feel really special and secret-agent like. It's their form of twisted entertainment.

I heard rumored, that Paragliders will never be allowed in Yosemite Valley as long as BASE jumpers are jumping illegally. Some how there is a connection between the two in the minds of the NPS???
WBraun

climber
Dec 21, 2006 - 02:30pm PT
Klimmer

Base is illegal in Yosemite, what do you expect them to do?

One part of law enforcement ranger's job is just that, enforce the Laws.

These guys go on shift and they do their job, law enforcement, and protection.

Whether we like the rules or not, the law enforcement rangers job is to enforce the rules and protect.

They don't make the rules or the laws.

What do you want them to do instead, LOL?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 21, 2006 - 03:28pm PT
WB,

Ok perhaps too harsh on my part.

Yes, they are doing their job. I believe the law should change and allow the BASE activity in a very structured and organized manner, just like the HG pilots are doing with the NPS. Forgive the past sins. Come to an agreement with the BASE community to stop the illegal jumps in lue of supervised legal jumps done early in the morning before the tourists wake-up. Structure it very similiar to how the HG pilots have worked it out.

End the war. BASE jumpers don't want to get it trouble, get arrested, face court, and get their expensive gear taken, and rangers have better things to do than chase these guys around. More time for Ranger talks and interpretive walks.

Then maybe I will get to fly my paraglider legally in The Valley. Win, win for everyone.

:-))
MZiebell

Social climber
Prescott, AZ
Dec 21, 2006 - 03:41pm PT
"Hell, he could have even arrested them for 'attemped illegal air delivery' on the spot."

I don't think so...

"Its hard for the NPS to make a case that the rangers are here to protect you and not out to get you when something is handled this way. I certainly hope that the ranger's supervisor has a chat with him about this."

It probably went this way:

Supervisor: How was your day off Keith?

Keith Lober: Great! Did an awesome route on El Cap. Oh, and on my way down a met a couple of guys who are gonna jump tonight...

Sup: Really? What route did you do?

KL: Freed the Slab! in 7 hours!

Sup: No Sh-t! I gotta get up there again soon...

KL: Yeah, the weather this time of year is great - and no crowds either!

Sup: Cool!

KL: So, what about the jumpers?

SUP: do we really have to deal with these guys?? Can't we use SAR siters for this?

KL: Well, the team is at the party at Werner's...

SUP: OK, OK: deal with it.

KL: Fine.

WBraun

climber
Dec 21, 2006 - 04:06pm PT
"LE doesn't have the grounds to stop them."

Yes they do, it's against the law. Remember?

Now rock climbing isn't, unless you are in a official closed area.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 21, 2006 - 04:09pm PT
This is an interesting situation. At the point in time when the first jumper stated to the ranger that the two of them were going to jump, they had admitted to a conspiracy to commit a crime, and were open to arrest at that time.

However, I'm not sure what the ranger could have done. He certainly would have potentially have put himself at risk to do *anything* in that situation. Who knows what people might do?

Getting off the face, he could then have notified headquarters, and what could they do? Do a major mobilization in the dark? Break out the helicopters? What would be the reaction of the jumpers? Would they hurry up? not double check things? jump unsafely?

Seems like they could potentially make the situation much worse.

The ranger could have identified himself....and what would have happened? Would they have turned around? Would they have given up BASE jumping? Would they have breathed a sigh of relief and been thankful that they didn't have to actually do it?

I think if you look through the alternative possible actions, the ranger took the path of least risk to all, which is, after all, the objection to the ranger's actions.

The ranger does have the obligation to prevent a crime from occurring.....but has a higher obligation to prevent harm to all involved. A crime had already been committed, but the ranger had no practical way to do anything about it.
Slider_up

Ice climber
Irvine, CA
Dec 21, 2006 - 04:22pm PT
One argument the NPS has made against allowing BASE is that parachutes flying over El Cap meadow could distract drivers and lead to an increase of collisions with pedestrians. There are other arguments, but this is the one that stands out the most to me.

But if the jumping were to take place in the early morning hours the pedestrian and auto traffic would certainly be minimized.

For years I have heard rumors of how the NPS in Yosemite will one day restrict all cars and RV's from entering the park, and all visitors will be bussed in to the valley. If this happens I wonder what the NPS will have to say then?

. . . . the place is mecca for BASE'ers. I can only dream of jumping there one day legally.


BTW. . . .Burns is right on!
Burns

Trad climber
Arlington, VA
Dec 21, 2006 - 04:29pm PT
Ken-

Are you implying that the jumpers might have killed the ranger in order to keep from getting arrested for base jumping?

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 21, 2006 - 05:02pm PT
I don't mean to imply any specific thing. However, in a law enforcement situation, one does not really want to leave one's life in the hands of an unknown person. People do crazy things when under stress.

http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/public-lands/national-parks/kenneth-patrick.html
Slider_up

Ice climber
Irvine, CA
Dec 21, 2006 - 05:28pm PT
Highly unlikely that the jumpers would have done anything other than try to hide if the Ranger had come clean.

Whether they would have jumped or not knowing he was an off duty Ranger? That's a tough one.

One might argue that they were already caught and that their gear and a fine would ensue anyway. If that was the case and I knew I was f-ed for sure, I would strongly consider jumping unless it was going to put the Ranger in harms way. (ie. if it appeared the Ranger was going to run out to the edge and physically try to stop me, no I wouldn't jump).

But on the other side of it, if they don't jump then perhaps they don't face as harsh of a penalty and maybe they don't get the gear confiscated.

I think if the Ranger had come clean though, chances are the jumpers would have definately not jumped.
Jerry Dodrill

climber
Bodega, CA
Dec 21, 2006 - 05:37pm PT
Last year an out of uniform ranger caught me "intending" to camp illegally up on the diving board. He advised me to return to the valley and get a permit to camp in Little Yos. Valley, OR he would come bust my ass in the morning. We hadn't commited a crime yet, so it was my choice. We hiked down.

If he had done what Lober did, I'd have paid a big fat fine. Would have been easy for him because he knew the crime was going to happen, He didn't have to ID himself as a ranger, but he gave us the opportunity to do the right thing. I just don't get why Lober went about it the way he did. The jumpers would probably have decided it wasn't worth it.

It's very suspicious and unfortunate that he chose the route of law enforcement, when crime prevention would have been a no-brainer IMO.
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