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darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
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Rajmit=LEB
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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I teach Methods so the ethics stuff is something near and dear to me! Laud Humphreys was a Washington Univ grad student at the time of the Tearoom Trade Work. This was conducted in St. Louis' very own Forest Park. I have the original Milgrim book - this work was super amazing. I love that book. There is so much unethical stuff out there - stuff the government did to folks without their knowledge. Tuskegee Syphillis.... I could go on and on. I collect these excellent ethics-related research pieces. Psych definitely has the best stuff.
I'll check out this one you've pointed out.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Lois,
Are you interested in the formal NPS rules or the somewhat informal and flexible rules that climbers--most--follow among themselves while on the rock?
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Wonder
climber
WA
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And why does the Rajsh*t still hang around? that would be a great study all by it self.
You got nothing, boy.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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LEB: I have all the answers for you. Sadly Rimjob is in this thread and it is thus moved up on the Def Con scale. I would hate to waste my wisdom and time a thread that will likely get nuked. Shortly AssDad will be here too, and they can start the countdown banter. Out.....
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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But I am really curious about your fascination with climbing and climbers...
Another one in the creel! Not as big as your last haul though, Lois. That was really a masterpiece, one that will go down in the annals of Internet history. I am in awe of your prowress.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Except that Rajmit answered your questions, truthfully and sucinctly.
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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"Typically those skills are taught at the PhD level and I have a masters degree."
Not in the hard sciences. I did shitloads of research in grad school for a MS.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Good questions
It's fairly informal though no less binding for that. It's also regional, and local.
That static from someone no longer acknowledged isn't even vaguely close, that, coulda been from a book, obviouslly irrelevant.
The 'real' rules come from local consensus. A certain amount overlaps between areas; ie weighting the rope in any geographic zone makes a climb not 'free,' but liebacking a crack that can be jammed is considered 'good style,' in some limited venues.
other examples;
Some places have 'ground-up' Fa traditions, some don't.
Areas with softer rock have more intricate concepts about what is acceptable in FA (and subsequent ascents) viz a vie (sp) pounding iron.
Some places don't blink when bolts get added to existing climbs, generally speaking they are chopped.
The list goes on.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I'll bite, but I don't think it will do any good...
1. Who makes the “rules” about climbing esp about climbing in a National Park. One might think it was the National Park Service (NPS) but such would seem such is not the case. As a hiker the rules are clearly set forth by the NPS and enforced by same. There is little question of what is or is not “allowed” or else who may use the hiking trails.
There are rules in the National Parks, climbers sometimes follow them, sometimes not. Often climbers are in places no one else is, has been or will ever be, so they often take advantage of that fact to bend the formal rules a bit in order to climb and put up climbs.
In an area, the local's will usually determine what the "rules" are. Locals are usually the people who are in the area the most. If someone comes in and does something out of line with the local style and ethics, the usual outcome is that that thing is "erased." Since the guide book author is usually a local, the description of routes, the description of the style and esthetic and ethic is in the hands of the locals to define.
Issues that arise between the locals are settled essentially in the same way, except that there can be protracted battles over routes, e.g. the route destruction craze brought on in Tuolumne Meadows in the 70's (?) when Higgins and others disagreed over style and routes were altered on both "sides" of the fight. I believe this is refered to in the Forum.
"2. Where (and how) do potential climbers learn these “rules”? How are they enforced? Is there some legitimate means by which persons become acquainted with said rules. Or rather, do people “learn” by getting beat up or having their equipment damaged or even life-threatening maneuvers such has cutting ropes, bolts, etc. Is there a “territorial” component inherent in any of this? Is there pissing and squatting going on? "
Learning the "rules" is done by the younger generation learning from the older generation. This is often replaced these days by reading the front matter in guidebooks. But the accepted way of putting new routes up in an area is to first pay your dues climbing in that area, and to make contact with the locals, at some point the newcomers become the locals. Think of the Stonemasters at Suicide Rock, who came as newcomers but became the locals, essentially.
Newcomers can put routes up, or "scoop" the locals on what is thought, by the locals, to be important unclimbed routes. This happens often, but if the newcomer does the line before the locals, in the style of the locals, then it is accepted. If not in the style, there may be problems... but it depends on just how bad the infraction is.
Sometimes the locals change the rules.. once again this can cause problems, or not... Bridwell "accelerated" the aging of routes by beating out cracks simulating the action of many parties aiding a route, and thus allowing a free passage on chipped holds. This was "controversial". Jardine manufactured holds on the Nose to make a free passage possible, this was "very controversial." Kauk and Bachar had a disagreement over style... didn't Ament also have a falling out of sorts?
Rules can change, they are not immutable.
"3. Who is “entitled” to use NPS facilities including El Cap. Is it anyone who pays taxes? Is it persons who have been there the longest? Is it persons who use the park the most frequently or live the shortest distance away? Is the “right” to use the park facilities in someway related to “might” i.e. the “might makes right” dynamics? Is freedom to climb in the park dependant on membership (or at least acceptance into) in a clique of some sort?"
Everyone can do anything... within the strictures of the law.
"4. Are any intimidation tactics used to keep newcomers out? What would happen to two men who say lived in Maine and who set out on a vacation together to climb for the first time in El Cap. Would they encounter resistence from persons already there and thus have to be “tough” enough to fight for the right to use these facilities. Do some people have “more rights” then others in this regard? Is this a “Law of the Jungle” dynamics issue or can any taxpayer and/or his family use the climbing routes in Yosemite? What about other climbing areas in other places? . "
Frequently newcomers can be intimidated by the locals, but not necessarily because the locals are intentionally intimidating, but because the "bar" of success may be set high by the actions of the locals. Tuolumne Meadows routes have a repuation of being runout (long distance between expansion bolts which would mean long falls), it is intimidating to newcomers. Locals know what it takes and seem to be accepting of the local style. If a newcomer went up and added bolts to a climb, the locals would go up and chop the added bolts. Check out the "Hair Raiser Buttress" thread in the Forum.
Families climbing in the park are usually irrelevant... unless the nearby climbers feel that they may have to be a part of a rescue operation, the first sign that this might happen usually has the locals going somewhere else. But it is not likely that the family will be climbing in the same area as the locals.
There may be strange actions from locals, like chopping bolts in areas that families are likely to use. This sort of action is inexplicable and if the choppers are identified much slander is heaped on them for doing something stupid.
If newcomers are intimidated by the locals, then they probably are not up to the local standards and need a period of apprenticeship before they can challenge the locals. You challenge the locals by climbing above their standards, in their style or a better style.
It's all about the climbing.
LEB, I don't expect much of this to make sense to you. As John said, you need to move beyond your normal place of comfort...
Jimi Hendrix
Are You Experienced?
If you can just get your mind together
Uh-then come on across to me
Well hold hands and then well watch the sunrise
From the bottom of the sea
But first, are you experienced?
Uh-have you ever been experienced-uh?
Well, I have
(well) I know, I know, youll probably scream and cry
That your little world wont let you go
But who in your measly little world, (-uh)
Are you tryin to prove to that youre
Made out of gold and-uh, cant be sold
So-uh, are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced? (-uh)
Well, I have
Uh, let me prove it to you, yeah
Trumpets and violins I can-uh, hear in the distance
I think theyre callin our name
Maybe now you cant hear them,
But you will, ha-ha, if you just
Take hold of my hand
Ohhh, but are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?
Not necessarily stoned, but beautiful
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Good Sh#T Ed. Lois dont sweat the small stuff = sh#t.
I WILL answer your email sometime.
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WBraun
climber
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Pretty damn good Ed. I enjoyed reading it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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There are areas where you are sure to find non-locals at well known climbing areas. Usually the non-locals are climbing the popular climbs... the locals may be off doing something else, like scoping out new lines, doing obscure lines, or climbing the more difficult climbs... but they will also appear in the more popular areas and are occasionally rude. They can also be polite, and everything in between...
A couple of examples...
On one of my first visits to the Valley I was drinking beer with my buddy Donnie (Chambers) on a sort of gazeebo structure across from the gas station that used to be next to Camp 4. I was probably 17 at the time... Donnie was at least 21. We were just a couple of climbers hanging out, a gaggle of teenage girls come by and strike up a conversation, they are from the Bronx and are in the Valley on vacation. The ask if we are climbers and we reply as you guess any young guy would "of course." At some point one of the girls sits in Donnie's lap "do you think I'm too forward?" she honks in that distinct accent. About that time a LEO wanders up and starts to get the situation back under control. The last thing he wants is tourist interaction with climbers... sort of the same as with bears. If climbers are to be tolerated at all, it is because they seem to be a tourist attraction. I am informed that the Valley has its own jail, etc, etc... fortunately I am bearded and the LEO doesn't suspect that I am 4 years underage.
While some doubt it, there is still a difference in the way climbers are treated and the way tourists are treated...
But the LEOs are trying to avoid a scene like the restaraunt scene in "Animal House", you remember Beloshi... "bring me your women!" You can read about this in many of the history threads in the Forum.
OK, another common occurence is a local climber acting borish around the non-locals... climbing a climb drunk, clipping every third bolt, commenting to a non-local on another route "be one with the rock" burp...
or standing at the bottom of a crag popular with the non-locals and screaming "you're going to die!" (see threads on the Forum about this)
or climbing a popular climb quickly (since the local has probably done it a million times when the non-locals weren't there) getting above everyone and screaming "ROCK!" which cause absolute chaos below as people cower from the fusillade they expect to be coming down.
Once I had three members of the gym I frequent out to climb in Yosemite Valley, their first outdoor climb. It had rained and put a damper on our little outing, but we eventually wandered over to Manure Pile Buttress to do After Six, an architypal "non-local" popular climb frequently soloed by locals. We met Werner and Merry over there, they were getting ready to solo, as the rain had chased the usual crowds away. Werner stood off tending his business, Merry asked what we were up to... she ended up giving one of my guys a really hard time, I don't know how the conversation got going in the direction it went in, and she had a good arguement going, my charges didn't know who the hell Merry and Werner were... anyway at some point we went back to the car to get our stuff and Werner and Merry launched up solo, impressed the hell out of my group, especially when it took us six hours to do what they did in maybe 20 minutes...
local, non-local interactions...
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todd-gordon
climber
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I make up my own rules.....I don't trust the government to be in MY best interests as a climber. I stand by my rules, live by my rules, and hopefully I can continue this nonsense for many years to come. I try to carry on the traditions of rock climbing that I have learned since I started climbing in 1972. Climbing is changing, and so are our wild areas. Government regulations and restrictions and like Indian underware....the creep up on us every year....(No disrespect to Native Americans intended...). We live in a very special time where BIG adventures are STILL very,very much avaliable......grab the tiger by the tail and the bull by the balls NOW........I think in the future, our government plans to save us from ourselves.......take away the "craziness" that helps keep us so sane.........
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Ed's got a website? nobody tells me nothin'.
I read that lyric above and I have to pause as I read, to hear it in the right cadence and timing. How evocative are those words I've known by heart for the last thirty(?) years?
-I like to think "I have/am." But I don't think I've been to the crossroads of of infinity just yet, so i don't really know. -guess I do know and I'm not!
But, outsider shit; a tale from Mr Shipley, one that I have recounted before.
Two gre-, er fellows from a square shaped rocky mtn state ( the one with the most land over 10k') Blew in to Camp four to make their mark. Parking was limited so they had to settle for the back row. They spied Msrs Braun & Cosgrove seemingly beached in folding lawn chairs lazily absorbing prana.
"Complacent cali climbers," one of them was heard to mutter.
The arrivees set up camp and went climbing. When the time was right Scott and Werner split to go run up Astroman in (then) record time.
-enies return to camp to find 'Those Guys' back in their chairs.
"We just climbed,-----, & -----, & etc. And those lightweights didn't do jack! Especially that guy (he pointed out the older of the two.) I know he didn't move the whole time!"
"I guess they just had nowhere better to be," said Walt.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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"Typically those skills are taught at the PhD level and I have a masters degree."
"Not in the hard sciences. I did shitloads of research in grad school for a MS."
Also not so for much of Social Science. I too did bucketloads of research as a Masters Student.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Nice stuff Ed!
There are lots of folks in this world with extremely active minds.
They have almost unlimited energy to bring to bear upon subjects which interest them.
Lois is one of those people.
So are many of us SuperTalkoers.
It was me, me, me, who asked Lois to go to WOS thread.
My idea.
mine, mine, mine.
(thanks btw lois)
(was that experience in some sense not instructive to you?)
(sheesh, it's almost like having gone climbing!)
("they" can take from your input what they will)
Climbers tend to do a lot of posturing and shuckin' and jivin'.
In contrast Lois presents with nearly inscrutable candor.
This throws a lot of us haggler jokers off base.
Lois a troll?
Not!
Yipee!
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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You are a riot, Roy.
But, Lois is still a troll, just a singular species of troll--she breaks all the rules of posting and trolling, yet is believable in a sort of unbelievable way. It would take some sort of brilliance I've never seen to create LEB out of thin air.
Something that could be said of you, too. Heehe.
She does get us all tied up in our underwear, doesn't she?
Buzz
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Werd, Roger
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Let us know!