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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 14, 2006 - 09:01pm PT
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Hi ya'all:
Kolin Powick, safety and gear guru at BD, asked me to post the following. I've worked with KP in the past (he kindly reviewed my new Anchor Book and provided valuable feedback). He's an expert (rare) on climbing equipment, is a tireless tester of everything from old dogbone draws to new biners, and remains a stickler for detail and accuracy. So if there's someone who will eventually wrangle this thing down to the ground, it's KP--of that we may be sure.
JL
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Regarding the incident of rope breakage on May 20th, 2006 at a rock climbing gym in Sacramento
Black Diamond received the rope shortly after the incident in order to perform an investigation and analysis. It appears most people are unaware that investigations like this are complex and take significant time. We have been analyzing the rope (at the point at which it broke) as well as performing multiple tests (tensile pull tests, high impact drop tests, low impact drop tests, drops over a carabiner, drops over a sharp edge, etc,
etc) on other portions of the rope and on comparative samples (brand new ropes, old used ropes, etc). Based on testing thus far, albeit incomplete, there does not appear to be any defect to the rope. This of course brings many other factors into the equation which increases the complexity of the investigation. Analysis is continuing - samples are being sent to outside
independent labs for chemical analysis, and we have been working with several outside sources to assist in the investigations: other industry experts, nylon experts, textile experts, rope manufacturers, the climber, the belayer, and the rock gym. All parties assisting in looking in to this have been incredibly accommodating and their assistance and efforts are greatly appreciated.
It must be remembered that coordinating an investigation like this takes time and money. Black Diamond alone has invested upwards of 70 man-hours to this point (after receiving the rope on May 25th) and we're probably about half way through the analysis. (Outside experts time and independent lab costs withstanding). We are looking at all possible scenarios and are doing our best to ascertain what happened in this instance. I don't want to go off half-cocked about findings thus far and would rather wait until the investigation is complete before distributing any sort of summary. At this time, best case scenario, I anticipate wrapping up the investigation by the
end of the month.
It must be noted that I, personally, always have been, and still remain of the camp that ropes simply don't break. Climbing rope construction, manufacturing process, materials used, and quality control are so unbelievably refined going on several decades now that it suggests that ropes simply don't break without some extra-ordinary circumstance or trauma involved. I therefore am confident in saying that there is no reason to
stop climbing on any rope from a reputable manufacturer and people should continue with confidence. As has always been the case being smart about checking your rope periodically for signs of trauma, and retiring from lead climbing within manufacturer guidelines and timeframe IS always prudent and necessary.
Thanks,
Kolin Powick
Quality Assurance Manager,
Black Diamond Equipment, Ltd.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 14, 2006 - 09:16pm PT
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cool, thanks John and KP!
sounds like they are leaning towards the "rope didn't just break conclusion," which seems rational. however that only leads to investigating other factors from either the climbers use of the rope or the climbing gyms wall and equipments effect on the rope.
a tough nut to crack. has the owner of the rope weighed in with any valuable input?
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Eddie
Trad climber
Boston
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Jun 14, 2006 - 09:16pm PT
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damn straight.
whiners...
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Jun 14, 2006 - 09:54pm PT
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Could somebody explain why the manufacturers are the only people that investigate product failures in the climbing industry? When a plane crashes, it isn't just Boeing that tells us what happened. When tires on SUVs blow up and cause rollovers, it isn't just Ford and Bridgestone that look into the matter and reassure us. The locking carabiners breaking from a Figure-8 was investigated by the BMC. But in this country, everyone is happy with potential litigants telling the whole story. Weird.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 14, 2006 - 10:03pm PT
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Maybe because the only experts in such a niche industry are the guys who make the ropes?
I mean, this is what, the first real rope problem in years? So you want a body of independent experts on climbing rope to sit around for a decade, waiting, playing tiddly winks perhaps, for one accident to investigate?
Who is going to pay them?
BTW, could it possibly be that now people will wait for a meaningful, well explained, carefully tested result on this rope debacle?
Or will they just move on to some new point of mindless speculation?
keep in mind that in terms of real working days, not many have passed, but many tests and scenarios have been and still will be run and examined, and finally, a solid conclusion based on evidence and fact will come out.
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coolclimber
Trad climber
toronto,canada
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Jun 14, 2006 - 11:11pm PT
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maybe the point to be emphasizedhere is to not push the limits of your gear. If one cannot have an idea what the thelimits are, then try to find out what it is and asses your situation before taking the fall. The sport is increasingly moving towards participants expecting the gear to hold no matter what without an iota of knowledge of how much ot takes.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 14, 2006 - 11:23pm PT
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I think you could have shortened this quote a bit from...
The sport is increasingly moving towards participants expecting the gear to hold no matter what without an iota of knowledge of how much ot takes.
to a more concise and accurate version...
The sport is increasingly moving towards participants expecting the gear to hold no matter what without an iota of knowledge.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 14, 2006 - 11:35pm PT
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why write something in the first place that you don't stand behind....slandering a company with no real basis of info???
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 15, 2006 - 12:02am PT
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Wihtout its favorite bone of the moment to gnaw, the mob quickly turned on itself...
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 15, 2006 - 01:01am PT
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CCH should take a lesson or two, or three from that response.
-Fear
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pFranzen
Boulder climber
Portland, OR
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Jun 15, 2006 - 03:02am PT
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Thanks for posting the update John. It's good to hear that they're treating this matter responsibly.
Somehow this whole matter doesn't phase me one bit. I tell new climbers that "ropes don't break" all the time but somehow, somehwere there's going to be an exception to that rule. Out of the millions of lead falls that are taken each year on hundreds of thousands of meters of rope it just doesn't seem that far out of the range of possibility that once every few decades a failure is going to occur. Sometimes the stars line up just right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it) and something terrible happens.
And a bit off topic... great article on the Stonemasters! I finally got around to reading it.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2006 - 11:37am PT
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Per Kolin's comment in that update that ropes don't just break--I can't speak for KP, but my take on this is that he is entirely correct. The rope was either cut (somehow, who knows how??) or damaged by chemicals or something else. The point is, there's no previous history of a lead rope getting so weak or "dry" or whatever that the core and sheath simply come apart when fallen upon. To my knowledge this has never happened in the modern history of climbing. There's always another factor, like a sharp edge--or something. But of course we'll have to wait and see.
JL
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wombat
Trad climber
NY, NY
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Jun 15, 2006 - 04:09pm PT
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Not to belittle the seriousness of the situation, (well maybe a little belittling involved) but the situation did make for fun discussion with my local gym employee while they signed a newby up for a belay test.
if i learned anything from this it was reinforcement that cats suck!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 15, 2006 - 04:14pm PT
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LOL the cloak and dagger suspense and code words are killing me.
WIll this message self destruct in 30 seconds?
The secretary wil disavow any knowledge of your actions should you be caught or killed.
Where is Mr Phelps when you really need him?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 15, 2006 - 06:23pm PT
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I'd like to see a photo of the lead route that this happened on at Pipeworks.
I have been to Pipeworks, and it is a top notch facility with a high quality wall. All the lead routes are overhanging and I couldn't see any edges that could cut a rope. It looked like a superbly engineered wall.
Perhaps the rope got caught up on a sharp hold, but that also seems highly unlikely.
Has anyone from the gym weighed in on this? It seems without word from the rope owner, or the manager of the gym, there are two important pieces missing from the analysis.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jun 15, 2006 - 06:39pm PT
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I had asked before (but no one responded since there was a big argument going on about something else)...did anyone check the ATC's (or whatever belay devices they were using) of the rope owner and/or climber for sharp edges? They do develop and can go unnoticed unless you actively check them...
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Colt45
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 16, 2006 - 01:29am PT
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According to the original post the rope broke near the climber's end, so the belay device probably is not relevant.
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rocketsocks
climber
Bellevue, WA
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Jun 16, 2006 - 01:48am PT
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Thanks John and KP. I'm glad, but not surprised, to see the amount of effort going into the investigation.
Also, to those who wonder why only BD is investigating rather than some independent government panel, the answer is simple. Climbing is an unregulated activity. And I, for one, do not want it regulated. I think BD is doing an exemplary job of investigating this issue. I also think that most other climbing gear manufacturers are comparably diligent when it comes to safety issues. I'd like to see that situation continue rather than have some massive crap-load of regulation and bureaucratic committees come along and ruin climbing for the foreseable future (and probably making it less safe in the process anyway).
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 16, 2006 - 09:23am PT
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If this incident had resulted in death it would be getting investigated by the police, in which case we'd have an answer to the cause sometime in 2008, a conviction in 2012 followed by an execution around 2022.
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Ropes don't just break.
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