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vernon
Trad climber
san francisco, ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 24, 2003 - 10:42am PT
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Wasn't the FFA of the first pitch done without bolts? If so, why are the bolts still there? What is the criteria in deciding what routes with non FA bolts get chopped, and what routes are allowed to have bolts added after FA?
vern
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 24, 2003 - 11:46pm PT
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"it was re-established as a sport climb within a couple days"
What are the criteria for calling it a "sport" climb? Trad climbing can include bolts, can't it?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 25, 2003 - 03:07am PT
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Why don't we ask the FA party what he thinks of the bolts before we start a chopping and redrilling nightmare.
There are a few sport climbs on the Cookie and lots of trad climbs. I think this is a case where the opinion of the first ascent party should count for something.
Peace
karl
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vernon
Trad climber
san francisco, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2003 - 10:39am PT
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I am not trying to start a chopping and re bolting war, and am not trying to get someone to go chop this route. I am just trying to understand why post FFA bolts on some routes are allowed to stay, and others are chopped.
The FFA of the first pitch was done by Kurt Smith and Scott Cosgrove, on gear. I do not know what Scott's feelings are regarding the post bolting, but do not believe that Kurt was happy with it. I was told by a valley local that Kurt had talked about chopping the route, and had offered to pay someone to go chop it. I do not know if this is true.
So....., this leads me back to the question from my original post, what is the criteria for chopping post FFA bolts?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 25, 2003 - 11:14am PT
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I don't chop and I don't drill so I'm not trying to make a case for anything here but...
People will tell you all kinds of philosophy about why certain bolts stay and others get chopped, but, on the stone in reality, this is what I've seen happening:
Retrobolted routes that are allowed to stay are usually either
1. Great routes like cookie Monster that mortals wouldn't be able to climb otherwise, so the bolting gets accepted.
2. Routes that people don't care about so they don't bother to chop. There are a few valley slab climbs that have been retroed that fall into this category.
3. Routes when the rebolter was well known and accepted locally or when the first ascent party wasn't well known or accepted locally.
4. Unknown chemistry: for some reason the local community buys it.
Not saying it's right or wrong. Just reality.
Maybe since Kurt became Mr. Bolt down in Mexico and got busted for power drilling in the valley, folks didn't think he cared about cookie monster's bolts.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 25, 2003 - 10:15pm PT
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I emailed Scott. Don't know if he is in travel mode though, since Jtree has got to be getting warm.
Peace
Karl
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 26, 2003 - 01:02am PT
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"... and got busted for power drilling in the valley..."
I do not understand this. If drilling is allowed, why NOT allow power drilling? It's not like someone is riding a dirt bike up to the base of a climb or something.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 26, 2003 - 08:47am PT
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Of course you wouldn't understand this Jody!
If Americans are allowed to own guns, why not let them have rocketlaunchers and AK-47s? (answer this in another thread if you must)
First of all, in a National Parks, all kinds of motorized stuff is forbidden. Chainsaws for instance. There is the issue of noise and the issue of ease of destruction.
BTW. I'm not here to judge Scott and Kurt for power drilling. There has been plenty of power drilling here that hasn't been busted. They added very few bolts, mostly replacing anchors and for some pro their free variation. If power drills were only in the hands of experienced and wise climbers, I wouldn't have as many problems with it.
Unfortunately, that's not the case. Nothing like the hard work required to drill flint hard granite to keep folks thinking long and hard about making their mark on Yosemite with some squeeze job.
PEace
Karl
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 26, 2003 - 09:14pm PT
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2 thoughts...
1. The cover of Yosemite Free Climbs features the mentioned route. Why was that route picked for the cover? It's a retrobolted sport route. The valley is so obviously a trad climbing destination, it just makes no sense. always bugged me, but whatever - glad to have the book.
2. No power drills in the valley also makes replacing those 1/4 inch nightmares even slower and harder. Big thanks to the ASCA who replace those crap bolts by hand.
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yo
Sport climber
Fresno, CA
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May 26, 2003 - 10:13pm PT
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One word answer: Daniella
I agree though, it's always bugged me too. A guide to the valley needs a picture of some poor bleeding bastard wedged in the Narrows or something.
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vernon
Trad climber
san francisco, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2003 - 10:27pm PT
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Since Daniela was brought up, did she climb this? Way told me that she was winched up.
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 26, 2003 - 10:53pm PT
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"If Americans are allowed to own guns, why not let them have rocketlaunchers and AK-47s? (answer this in another thread if you must)"
I will not answer this out of respect for Karl.
"First of all, in a National Parks, all kinds of motorized stuff is forbidden. Chainsaws for instance. There is the issue of noise and the issue of ease of destruction."
Okay, better ban cars, helicopter rescues in the valley, buses...
I've seen them use chaninsaws in the Valley...I think that motorized thing is just in the "Wilderness", am I wrong?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 26, 2003 - 11:25pm PT
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NPS can use chainsaws and such. Campers can't.
Don't forget that once you're a few hundred feet up the rock, it's considered wilderness by the authorities.
Peace
Karl
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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May 26, 2003 - 11:53pm PT
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bringmebeers wrote:
i will give a free 6-pack of the beer of your choice to anyone who chops this route and patches the holes accordingly...hell i might be buying myself the OE.
I think you should amend that to:
Pending a definative OK from Scott Cosgrove or Kurt Smith,
anyone who has the sack to lead it on gear should
consider chopping said bolts as a way of celebrating
said heroic lead. I mean, until someone actually does
something, there will continue to be a lot of drunken
spewing around the campfire, but no action!
Hardman Knott
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 27, 2003 - 12:05am PT
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Thanks for the explanation on the definition of "wilderness"...that makes sense. What if I snowmobile into Tuolomne in the middle of the winter and power drill some stuff, will anybody be around to hear me or catch me?
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Swinger
climber
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May 27, 2003 - 01:01am PT
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YES
There are two winter seasonal rangers in Tuolumne.
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 27, 2003 - 01:32am PT
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Don't worry, I wasn't seriously considering it.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 27, 2003 - 03:07am PT
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Hey Karl,
actually, the NPS is NOT allowed to use power tools such as chainsaws, helicopters, etc in Wilderness with two exceptions:
1) life threatening emergencies (SARs)
2) where they have previously issued a finding that it's the minimum management tool (i.e. it's the least impact on the Wilderness needed to manage the resource - such as using a helicopter to remove an old cabin rather than have tons of horses trample through a meadow, etc).
It's rumored that the NPS abuses #2 (or ignores it) to get supplies into high sierra camps, etc. However, Wilderness Watch and others have been suing NPS, USFS, and BLM for abuses in the Wilderness, and you'll see trail crews with the big 2-person saws cutting fallen trees in early season, etc.
It could easily be argued that power drilling to replace bolts is the minimum impact needed to replace bolts (from a wildlife perspective, a short buzzing is a lot less impact than 20 minutes of high-pitch pinging). BUT, that would require that old bolts on classic routes be necessary for Wilderness management - not somewhere we (or they) want to go, as it would probably open them up to lawsuits, and open climbing bolts up to administrative decision making on individual routes (e.g. decisions to remove routes). Besides, it'd be tough to argue that bolts are necessary for managing the Wilderness...
Anyway, my main point is that environmentalists can and have sued land managers for misuse of power equipment in Wilderness.
Greg
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Southern Man
climber
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May 27, 2003 - 08:18am PT
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Karl:
Thanks for the infor. on posting e-mail addresses. Hope I got it off in time before harm was.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 27, 2003 - 08:45am PT
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I'm sure you meant no wrong but I think we should think twice before posting folk's email address on the net unless we have their OK to do so.
Computer programs scan the net and harvest email address for spammers. I get emails from time to time that assume that I am the owner of supertopo.com and do I want to buy bulk email CD or some other scam.
Post Kurt's email here and soon he'll have to decide which penis enlargement product to use his herbal viagra with!
;-0
Karl
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