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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 1, 2006 - 06:38pm PT
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Madbolter1 says re: WoS:
Regarding the question about how the rivets were holding our falls, We weren't assuming the rivets to hold falls, but we found that they did hold the falls we were taking on them. I would say that the combination of location of falls taken (luck), rope-run over the slab and through placements (adding friction), and the brand new status of the rivets all contributed to them holding. All the way up the slab we weren't counting on any one of them holding any particular fall, and each time one did we were happily surprised.
Ok, to use the above as an example, but it could apply to any route:
(I swear to biscuit I'm not singling you guys out!!!)
So, if you (or anyone) did not expect the rivets to hold falls, yet they did, would the replacements of these rivets with something more bomber than a Zmac alter the route? Say the holes were filled with machine heads or 1/4" rawls instead. The point I'm getting at is even though the pucker factor was high in anticipation, the outcome was the rivets were bomber. So, to take it to the end of the logic train, bomber replacements should not alter the physical part of the route. Mental, different story, but how can you replace that?
Any thoughts? Ideas? Is this like a Beyer thing?
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Since we strive to maintain the experience of the FA as much as possible shouldn't we make sure that during any future attempts someone craps on the ropes? No offense anyone (I hope), I just find that whole thing so humurous. Like jr. high kids are our style police.
Good question Russ (really). I don't know if there is an answer. Perhaps quickdraws could be cut halfway through, ala Dano (just kidding).
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Don't you swear to my biscuit, Walling.
Yes, one of the Winger Brothers says you can't just replace the rivets with any sort of rivet that actually HOLDS FALLS because that changes the CHARACTER of the route. So you ask were THE rivets PULLING then. And another brother says NO but it SURE felt LIKE it. SO then FISH (haha) says what sort OF rivet is dear PTPP putting back into these HOLES, the ones THAT catch falls OR the ones that imaginarily DON'T. This is all very here and there this whole WoS thing, just going round and round and so basically whatever you or I say is just going to make the WoS carousel go round one more ENTERTAINING time.
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Well I guess I do have 2 cents to throw in.
Russ said "it could apply to any route" but I think it depends on the route. On many routes it won't matter. The FA would't care what the replacement is. They simply put in the best/easiest/cheapest thing they had to bypass a blank section and putting in the modern standard would be ok. But on some routes (e.g. WoS especialy since they are stating the rivets were intentionaly selected for a specific reason, and many hard aid routes) you may want to maintain that part of the FA experience if possible.
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Wait, Mike(period) has written some nice things about how the feel of a pitch is changed via retrobolting (maybe regarding TT or maybe Skull Queen?). Not to put words in his mouth but he was prolly talking rivets vs. bolts and not bad rivets vs. good rivets. Maybe he'll stop by.
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Wait! (I'm still reading the OP) Did you say Beyer?
I...COMPETE...WITH...THE MAD BOLTER!!!!!!!!!
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MSmith
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Russ,
I might have more to say after some more thinking, but it would seem that it is not the job of repeat ascensionists to get into so far into the head of the FA’s as to try to recreate their experience. Unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise, I would think that replacing with the same style of rivet would make sense. But the FA’s don’t own the route. If drilled aid placements are replaced with a different kind which is physically comparable to the original, so be it. What if original rivets could be replaced with ones that have a longer lifespan? Would we still replace the original time bombs with the same thing?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I guess I'm missing the logic of the rivet argument:
They should be strong enough to stand on, but weak enough that if one does break (corrosion? mfg. defect?) or your hanger fails, you rip all the ones below, too?
Or, they should look scary to stand on, so the pitch is not a clip-up?
I've seen those zamac rivets on El Cap, and they didn't seem too scary to me (ignorance is bliss).
The aluminum rivet ladder (real rivets) on Son of Heart␁ seemed worse. They bend down under load, the next party bends them back up, and so on, until they finally break. Should those be used? After 30-odd years, they looked to be in pretty good shape, corrosion-wise. But, the invisible fatigue damage from the bending cycles kept the "Pucker Factor" high (or would, if there weren't now big bolts every few moves).
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WBraun
climber
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Tom
You hit that just right!
That's the dumb ass logic these idiots have in mind about rivet ladders.
It's called no logic, just a big fuccking ego trip!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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ego trip? on whose part? I think I missed part of this.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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There might be also something said for having good rivets as free climbing pro. If some guy with bubblegum on his shoes wants to walk up that slab, he should have good rivets to clip.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Didn't mean to completely kill the other thread but if someone would, I'd still be interested in the answer to this question...
"I am curious about these "batheads", though, and whether the "head" was all the way in the hole, flush, or sticking out some such that some sort of "forked" hook would simply slip over them..."
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Keep the adventure?
How about wheel of fortune / Randomizer rules?
clip a;
rivit, bolt, dowl,
-spin the wheel;
leave it?
replace it?
with something the same?
better?
worse?
of course, no beta!
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Do a Russell or Shipley free route and you'll find machineheads.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Shouldn't an old rivet be replaced with something that is itself replaceable? Is this replaceability not paramount? Otherwise what happens when it's time to replace the replacements?
I believe this is the primary reason a certain style of rivet is now being placed in Yosemite rock, is it not, so you can replace them later?
Of course, replacing rivets and making scary-sick hook placements just gets you to the top of the WOS slab. After that, you have to spend the next week or so removing every twenty-five-year-old copperhead and replacing it with a new head with new-style stainless steel cables. And in my experience, removing a deadhead is about 4x as hard as placing a new one. One wonders if repeating these heading pitches will actually be harder and more time-consuming than the first ascent?!
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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-spin the wheel;
make a deal?
Legal placement or no?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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426:
"So what's the Plan?"
"Plan? There ain't no plan . . ."
"I am curious about these "batheads", though, and whether the "head" was all the way in the hole, flush, or sticking out some such that some sort of "forked" hook would simply slip over them..."
That's what someone'll find out someday. The FA guys don't remember. It was 24 years ago.
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