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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 13, 2006 - 11:34am PT
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Duncan,
overall I think this explains the divide, good job. Like many old timers I dislike the word trad, mainly because it does not necessarily describe the type of climbing that I grew up on (runout Granite Slab climbing and using bolts for protection). I remember climbing at a backwater place in the US about 15 years ago where some of the routes had been Top Roped into submission prior to leading them. One of the routes in particular had poor pro. I could not help but think that if the FA had been ground up, that there may have been a bolt or two placed, even if the FAist would have been hanging off a hook or something else. As I was used to approaching climbs ground up, I felt like the guy had been cheating. I know that one of the arguments used in the great sport climbing debate of the 80's here was that gound up created a level playing field. That was what was missing to me at this place where scary routes were created by TRing first. The guidebook failed to mention the style of the FA. I think that is where some of the folks were coming from here.
Hats off to Dave though. By not placing bolts he is upping the ante and someday, perhaps it will be upped again...
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 13, 2006 - 11:43am PT
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duncan - "Trad = no bolts; sport = bolts"
What about Tuolumne Meadows? Bob Kamps "trad" routes are still feared today. Many were bolted on stance with no falls and have been upgraded several letter grades from their original rating. They're still trad despite the perceived definition of "trad". Kamps would agree if he were still with us. Ask Higgins.
And I think you're right..."Head-pointing can’t be trad. as it involves prior practice" - so I'll have to retract on the "trad - headpoint" thing I stated earlier. Headpointing can't be trad in a strict sense - it's still fun however.
cheers, jb
oh yeah, sorry guys, but the UK still has the best beer!
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rmuir
Social climber
the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Apr 13, 2006 - 03:11pm PT
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You missed it, John. "Trad = ground-up" applies to us Yanks. Tuolumne Meadows is in the US--where bolts are an accepted part of trad equation. Kamps was a traditionalist long before the term was defined, when we were both in the cradle.
But, I gotta agree with you... Nothing beats a proper ale, best served somewhere in GB. However, outside of a quality British pub, I'll take a Belgian Lambic any day. There's attention to detail in every bottle!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 13, 2006 - 03:54pm PT
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"Hardest Traditional Route in the World climbed?"
No, not yet (I think it's still some years away).
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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Apr 13, 2006 - 04:18pm PT
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Bachar, your off your bean lad. Best beer is brewed in the Pacific Northwest United States of Uncle Sam, eh.
Portland, OR is probably THE mecca of beer....beervana as it were. Don;t get me wrong, I love ale from the UK as well, but all in all, the PNW has it over Germany, Belgium, UK, etc and I'd wager they out-do many of those places in their own signature styles.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2006 - 09:49pm PT
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There's always some superman who can show up and upset the apple cart, particularly if a woman dumps him, but...
There are a few reasons why 5.11 used to be the hardest grade in the world. It wasn't just about the shoes and pins (shoes are THAT important on overhanging limestone)
First (in the US) guys like Bachar and Kauk actually TRAINED instead of just drinking and jumping back into their aiders.
But the second reason concerned tactics. Studs like Kamps could stand on nothing and tap in a bolt every 40 feet on a thin 5.11 climb but there ain't nobody who can do it on overhanging 5.14.
So folks want the higher grades, the equation of things change, the nature of the danger and stresses change but folks still create and gravitate toward the level of adventure they want to enjoy/suffer.
The same "ethics" that might allow someone to fly a plane across the ocean with using oxygen, heating, automation and whatnot will never apply to flying to the moon.
Peace
Karl
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 13, 2006 - 10:06pm PT
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"Trad = ground-up" - rmuir. Exactly. For Yankies. But probably elsewhere like Elbsandtsein too.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2006 - 12:14am PT
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"Trad = no bolts" - bmoon. Exactly. For Limeys. But probably elsewhere like the USA too, if they were completely honest with themselves.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 14, 2006 - 12:37am PT
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Do "Chingadera", Tahquitz. Tell me that ain't trad. 5.10c... - Kamps.
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Loomis
climber
Praha, Ceska Republika
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Apr 14, 2006 - 01:41am PT
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in the Elbe river gorge, Czech and German sides, they are rap placing bolts with power drills and even using chalk now!
People used to get carried off by the meat wagon from decking out on the classic routes, now they get carted away from ethic battles in the pubs.
Fortunately there are laws protecting the classics from retro bolting. It is still illegal to use chalk, nuts and cams in the rock. The rap bolting and chalk use is generally frowned upon by the climbing community.
And by the way Elcapinyoazz: You possibly could be the the one who is off your bean. Czech republic has the best beers in the world, most Germans will even attest to that. So many Germans go to Czech on the weekends and holidays to 1. Drink Czech beer. 2. Save money. 3. See prettier women. (please don’t take this as sexism or racism) :-)
And I’m speaking about lager beer.
The first amber beer in the world was created in Ceska Republika in the city of Plzen and the original Budweiser is from Ceske Budejovice. In Czech they call our Bud “limonada” Ha! :-)
There sure isn’t a town called Budweiser in America.
Also, almost every little village in Czech and Slovakia has a local beer/lager that SMOKES the best micro brews here in the States. Czech republic is even in the Guinness book of world records for the highest consumption of beer in the world, it ain’t just Czech’s drink’n it. Na sracky ty vole!!!
Enjoy the photo’s:
It comes to USA this way thanks to the idiots at anhauser busch
The first amber colored beer in the world, straight out of CZ ty vole! :-)
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 14, 2006 - 02:38am PT
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I think I need one of them "Super Strong" Budweisers to test drive. All we gots out here is High Gravity Camo XXXXX (yep, 5 x's)
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 14, 2006 - 02:50am PT
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Na Zdravi !
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 14, 2006 - 03:44am PT
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Old, Stiff, US Trad = Ground Up, No Dogging, No TR Rehersal, Pull the rope after falls, Onsight if possible...
Old, Erickson, US Trad = Ground Up, No Dogging, No TR Rehersal, No Falls, Onsight or Walk Away...
Old, Relaxed, US Trad = Ground Up, No Dogging, No TR Rehersal, Onsight if possible...
New, US Trad = Ground Up, No TR Rehersal, Onsight if possible...
I have always considered the seminal (and largely unacknowledged and unspoken) difference between trad and sport wasn't the method of protection, but the dogging. The real change between what has come to be known as "trad" and today's climbing is the widespread acceptance and adoption of this practice at all levels of difficulty - in both sport and trad. It was one thing at the advent of sport climbing to accept it was necessary on extreme routes, but quite another shortly thereafter seeing folks dogging up everything.
Dogging has clearly made its way from sport and gyms to now become firmly embedded in today's normative notion of "trad" (which is not a practice entirely without peril). Also, "Trad" never implied no fixed protection, but rather always favored gear and considered any fixed pins or bolts as a last resort.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2006 - 04:05am PT
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Kinda like Bill Clinton massaging the definition of sex so that he wasn't "really" cheating...
What kind of "Be Lay" did you get Bill? Was there protection fixed? Have you gone back to "Free Soloing" yet?
It's tempting to define "trad" to include our style and exclude the style of others.
What are the hardest vices to give up when climbing at your very max limit if you're a hardman?
Dogging? Having reasonable pro? Cleaning the route? Preprotecting?
At what grade does giving up these sort of "cheats" become newsworthy?
Where is the line between style, ethics and the very category a climb is considered in. This new testspeice is not a sport climb unless you're a world class sandbagger. If it's not trad, then what?
Peace
Karl
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Apr 14, 2006 - 01:53pm PT
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Sounds like a well-rehearsed solo with the issue, to a certain undefined extent, still in doubt: If the RP wire breaks, will I really die, or just be seriously injured?
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GK
Trad climber
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Apr 25, 2006 - 05:48am PT
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Karl Baba wrote:
"Where is the line between style, ethics and the very category a climb is considered in. This new testspeice is not a sport climb unless you're a world class sandbagger. If it's not trad, then what?"
In New Zealand we often describe lines as "natural" or "naturally protected". These terms are generally inter-changeable with "traditional". Maybe for the hair splitters, describing this line as a naturally protected climb would be more suitable.
Karl also previously mentioned something to the effect that high grade lines of this type are pushing the boundries of climbing and so the ethics are pushed too. I couldn't agree more. I think we need climbing and ethics at the top end pushed as often as possible.
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Blight
Social climber
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Apr 25, 2006 - 11:58am PT
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What an absolutely buttock-clenchingly embarrassing thread this must be for americans. To see the rest of the world cheer and support this achievement then to see their own leading lights descend yet again into petty sniping, nationalism and outright lying just because the climber's not american and the climb's not in america.
Honestly, what an embarrassment you are to your country.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 25, 2006 - 01:48pm PT
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Sorry Blight,
Not to difuse an opportunity to bicker, which we all no doubt apparently enjoy immensely, but It seems this thread has shown plenty of regard from both sides of the pond.
I particularly enjoyed the detour/tension reliever brought about by the historians and beer drinkers.
After carefully reading all posts, it looks to me that headpointing sits squarely between "trad(ground up, minimal bolting)" and "sport"(top down lots of bolting)", with "headpointing" (top down, very minimal bolting if any at all) holding its own unique and particular aspect of tremendous adventure.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 25, 2006 - 02:03pm PT
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Definitely it's own category
Maybe if you called them 'Reruns'
they'd get more attention over here.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 25, 2006 - 02:14pm PT
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Nothing wrong with head pointing, as long as you admitt it.
I am not sure how you would rate a 5 headpointer before leading situation.
The onsight ground up rating would have to be harder than the headpointed one.
I still think this whole trad was begun with a jab, and jabs were returned.
Get that chippy of yer shoulder, wanky brits.
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