The Deuce5 Open Source Hammer Project - II

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healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 9, 2006 - 11:48am PT
Dirt,

When you run a line down through the head on those hammers I think you can see the handles move your hand away from the wall a bit. Won't know prices until we spec out the head brackets, heat treat, finish, and assembly costs.



spyork

Trad climber
Fremont, CA
Feb 9, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
Healyje,

I used hammers for many years in carpentry. I found I really liked the wooden handles as opposed to steel (Estwing) or fibreglass. Seemed to be easier on my hands and arms, and I was more accurate with a good wooden handle. Do people find that to be true? Is nailing really just nailing?

Steve
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Feb 9, 2006 - 02:16pm PT
"Is nailing really just nailing?" Not when it's heading.;)

I like the bottom pic a little better than the top. A little less aggressive of a curve.

So....what happens when you turn the hammer around and use the pick to paste a head? I know it's not neccessarily the best way to do it but it does get done.

Would it get snagged on a holster or a gear loop that you are pulling it out of?

It might be better to stick with a straight handle but I would like to try out one of the slightly curved handles. Know what style, part number, or company contact info for the handle you have in mind? I have a wall hammer head with a fiberglass handle like the Omega Pacific hammers that I don't really like. I would love to field test a new handle with that head on it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2006 - 02:22pm PT
Theron, I agree with you on the bottom one and your comments on suitability for heading. I doubt Klaus would buy off on it. We'll have to ask him given he probably has a broader context for what a hammer is and needs to be than most of us. Again, at some point I'll ask Conrad if he couldn't jump in with his thoughts.
1timer

Trad climber
The Future
Feb 9, 2006 - 06:27pm PT
Healyje,
I know this project is in the earliest of phases but any idea when they might be finished? I would like one of these but am in need of a hammer in the next few months and dont currently have one.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2006 - 06:30pm PT
My hunch is we probably won't make that timeline...
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Feb 9, 2006 - 06:32pm PT
The first thread started last March, so I wouldn't hold your breath.

Joe, how about an update on where you are with this? What's been done, what needs to be done, costs and holdups?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2006 - 07:04pm PT
Caught,

Since getting a thumbs up from Conrad in Decemeber, I've been the holdup. I promise to get it underway by Monday. We're nowhere on it all beyond the preliminary look into the technical and legal aspects of it, the latter of which have now been resolved.
1timer

Trad climber
The Future
Feb 9, 2006 - 10:33pm PT
ok...but keep me on the list
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Feb 16, 2006 - 08:56pm PT
Not sure if the design for the Deuce5 hammer head has been finalized yet, but here are some pictures of a hammer that I helped to design and still use. Klaus and Wade use this hammer as well and seem to like it. The hammer was produced by Klym Me Rock Products and sold under the name of the “McDevitt hammer” (Dan also helped with the design). It is no longer available, but has some features that work quite well.

As opposed to cast or forged, the head is machined and the narrow pick shape works great for setting/placing Cu/Al-heads as well as cleaning out munge and rotten rock on fresher terrain. A proper head-placing kit is still needed, though. The square edges allow for more precise hammering in tight corners, especially when placing beaks or rurps. The larger cleaning-biner hole accepts the tall nose of a BD oval. The combination of the longer handle and heavier head-weight makes cleaning stubborn pins easier, not to mention sinking them to the eye in the first place… The weight also makes it great for drilling. One drawback of the design is the head / handle attachment. Over time, the head becomes loose, and requires additional steel wedges or nails to be driven into the top end of the handle to keep it tight, although the head is secured to the handle with a roll-pin (through a wedge) so it won’t fall off… unless you snap off the end of the handle.

Anyways, the A5 attachment (like the BD/Chouinard) with two metal tangs is much more solid and reliable. However, because the attachment is so solid, the hammer tends to have a harsher ‘feel’, especially when drilling. For this reason, I prefer to use the McDevitt hammer, rather than the A5. (For the serious stuff, the BD hammer is a light-duty tack hammer, but ok for something quick or for an extra backup - IMO.) Maybe there is a way to add some sort of dampening system in the attachment of the new Deuce5 hammer so that we have the best of both worlds – a super-solid head attachment on a hammer that you can comfortably swing all day long.

The narrow pick design might be something else to look into, if possible with the existing forging die. I’ve found that I rarely, if ever, use the pick-end of a hammer to clean pins, etc., so a blunt pic that doesn’t work as well for placing Cu/Al-heads, etc. seems like kind of a waste. Does the orientation of the cleaning-biner hole make any difference (vertical vs. horizontal)?

Just throwing some ideas out for discussion…









mark miller

Social climber
Reno
Feb 16, 2006 - 10:38pm PT
Hey BL I think it's time to tip and bend give me a call. Once you get use to the swing of the modern framing hammer going back to a straight handle feels like the special olympics, if $ wasn't an issue you could drill out the center of the handle and fill it with a polymer to change it's attack but were talking about a hammer that cost 2x ( oh about the price of your average ice tool). People who work with implements are use to resetting the heads when needed but that task does require another hammer.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Feb 16, 2006 - 11:03pm PT
Yeah, that’s what I’ve been thinking, bro… Time to unleash some more crazy distortion!

I’ve got a California Framer (in addition to several others) from my hammer-swinging days but we never thought about putting one of those handles on the McDevitt. I’d have to give it a try. Maybe it would have a better feel. Prototype sounds like the word… as with them beak thingies…
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Feb 17, 2006 - 12:10am PT
“I just can't imagine not using a chisel and/or punch to place a head of any size.”

Most definitely agreed, bro!

“I don't see the need for a good pick swing on a rock hammer”

Do you mean in reference to the shape of the handle or the shape of the pick? I would agree that the primary swinging direction (straight) of the hammer should be towards the hammer striking end, rather than the pick end.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Feb 17, 2006 - 12:31am PT
Ahh, good point about cleaning nuts with some precision taps with the pick.

Remember that super-old-dad Chewy hammer that has the super-munge pick? Guess they really did like that groveler stuff back then, aye? Or is that what you are talking about?
WBraun

climber
Feb 17, 2006 - 01:56am PT
So will the beautiful melodic ring of the piton be scorned into oblivion and replaced by the mechanical engineered sounds of the chiseled copperhead that forces the natural weakness when modern passive gear loses its justice?

Will Yosemite become a court room of ethics?

Is the copperhead the last bastion of aid tools that needs help?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2006 - 04:58am PT
Well, where to begin. Bryan, this is the first I've heard of this hammer. All I know at this point is that the mold for the A5 is what it is and short of filling in or otherwise altering the existing A5 logo I'm not sure that there is much point in trying to modify it. And I don't have metals background, but my understanding was / is that the cold forged hammer head is quite hard and meant to be so much more than the BD which is cast. Machining one out of some hardened metal would I suppose be a possibility.

Bryan, I guess this all falls into sort of the same deal as the beaks. My intention all along has simply been to recreate the old A5 products using the existing molds and dies. No doubt there are improvements to be made on both, and while those would probably be not all the difficult to execute on the beaks, it's starting to get into an entirely different realm when it comes to the hammer from my perspective. Putting a different handle on it is one thing, but I think taking an wholly different path on the head is a bit of a departure from the work I originally had in mind.

Given you have beak and hammer designs you appear to want executed, we should probably put some thought into what we are doing and what we really want to get done. Look, I'm the Valley wannabe here. I've been using Forrest and BD hammers for my work out at Beacon and while I'm fine with them, I've been under the impression that the A5 is a cut above both and I had hoped to acquire one before hitting a wall in the Valley. I'm way more than willing to defer to what the likes of you, Klaus, and Ammon think a wall hammer ought to be. Maybe you guys should convene a design summit and "hammer out" the details as it were.

I'm just getting clear of my current project and so can start taking this up but I'm a bit concerned about what in my business we call "scope creep". Reproducing the A5 stuff is fairly straight forward, these new designs are a bit less so.

Deuce, Klaus, Ammon, and all the rest of you wall aces - what are your thoughts on the hammer design?

 Hardness?
 Stiffness?
 Head attachment?
 Face profile / edges?
 Pick taper?
 Handle shape?
 Vert vs. horiz. funk hole?
 Leashing?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 17, 2006 - 11:03am PT
Perfect is the enemy of the good...

Keep it simple...

...[paraphrase=Chouinard] no one ever made money making climbing equipment [/paraphrase]

My opinion (of course nobody asked) is that the quest for the ultimate wall hammer is endless, and that unless the popular masses take up that aspect of the sport there is really no commercial pull for designing the ultimate hammer. The hammer projects will continue to be small, local efforts done by people who have the skill and interest to develop that tool, but no prospect of commercializing the end product. The A5 hammer was probably the best commercial hammer available. But even here the sales prospects numbers 100, where 250 items is a minimum production run. This project floods the market.

New hammer development will happen. But going from development to production is a long road. The A5 hammer has been down that road.

For me, I am holding off buying a new hammer waiting for the A5. My guess is that a change in direction for the "open source hammer project" would see me buying a Black-Diamond hammer which has been sitting on the rack of the local climbing store for years.
malaka

climber
gothenburg, sweden
Feb 17, 2006 - 02:07pm PT
Ya, I´m with Ed. Let´s get the ball rolling on the A5 and maybe, just maybe, we can have a hammer by summer..
Unless of course Minerals has the whole thing ready to go into production straight away, cause´ it looks great!
And beaks please!!
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Feb 17, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
Hey, I don’t mean to throw a curve ball into this project; I just thought I’d throw out some ideas to think about. We/you don’t have to modify the existing A5 design at all if we/you don’t want to. And it’s not for me… I’ve got an A5 hammer (signed by the Deuce), two Chouinard hammers, and three or four McDevitt hammers, so I’m set for a long time. I don’t need another hammer.

It just seems like if we are going to go through this whole process, why not look at other options and possible improvements, provided they don’t ‘get in the way.’ These concerns kind of outline one of my struggles/frustrations in life – EVERYTHING can be better… but it isn’t. I could give the (so-called) engineers at General Motors a serious piece of my mind… but they wouldn’t listen because I don’t represent the general masses. The average Joe won’t know any difference so why let performance cut into profits? (Not that we are discussing profits here because there will be none…) But even if the average Joe doesn’t recognize the fact that they are using a refined product, they will still be using that refined product that does in fact function better. The civil ‘engineers’ that work for the City of Reno probably wouldn’t listen to me either… Oh, well… Guess I better stop dreaming of utopia…

So, as for the hammer, do whatever seems like the best bet for everyone involved. Something like a narrower pick design may be as simple as just grinding more off the sides of the pick after forging. But, as for the beaks, I will keep pushing for the new design because simply put, it works better.

Carry on…


edit:
(ps - my "average Joe" comments are not directed at you, Joseph, in any way. I don't mean to offend anyone... Just using a generic phrase.)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2006 - 03:06pm PT
Bryan,

As I said, I'm open to other ideas, just wary of what's involved. But if we were going to go to that much trouble then I'd want Deuce, Ammon, Klaus and others' input on the whole affair. How about laying out all the specs on the McDevitt hammer?

 Head material?
 Hardness?
 Funk hole drilled/machined how?
 Who has Funk hole drill/machine jig?
 Heat treatment specs?
 Handle source and model #?

Personally don't care for a regular head attachment, but that's just me. Again, Deuce, Ammon, Klaus, and Others? A little design input would be helpful here...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2006 - 03:33pm PT
"Maybe machine a groove for an attachment stamped tool end?
"

Could you please explain this statement? I don't understand it...
cultureshock

Big Wall climber
Wall Climber Wannabe
Feb 17, 2006 - 03:43pm PT
I would guess he would be refering to a place to put multiple types of picks like with this hammer:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Chouinard-crag-hammer-Excellent-condition_W0QQitemZ7219192845QQcategoryZ50814QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

That way you could have more flexibility for use.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Feb 17, 2006 - 03:43pm PT
Joseph,

I don’t have any of those specs – I’d just be guessing. The hammers were manufactured by Bill Forshee of Klym Me Rock Products and he dealt with all of the specs, as he owned/ran (I forget) a machine shop down south. The roll-pin idea was his idea and I pretty much contributed to the overall shape and design of the hammer. We produced the McDevitt hammer back in the mid/late 90’s and I haven’t talked to Bill since then – no idea where he is or how to get a hold of him. He also produced a weird nut tool with a sliding action, an aluminum belay seat, and other random stuff (but obviously, the company went nowhere).

If I had to guess, the head is 4130 and heat-treated to maybe the upper 30s or low 40s RC… maybe a little harder… I’m not sure if the biner hole was drilled by hand on a drill press with a jig or on a CNC. I never saw any of the actual production as that was all done down south.

It seems like the specs on the original A5 work pretty well – it’s the shape that I’m more concerned about... and the rigid head attachment. It’s a great hammer, but as with just about everything, a few modifications wouldn’t hurt. The head attachment on the McDevitt is not something that we want to copy, but if we can add some dampening to the existing A5 head attachment, as mentioned above, we will have a solid hammer that has a better feel.

Again, these are just some of my comments; you guys should do what you think is best.


“I'd want Deuce, Ammon, Klaus and others' input on the whole affair.”

Most definitely. Speak up, wall rats!



“Maybe machine a groove for an attachment stamped tool end?”

So this would allow us to use different pick types, etc. for different applications? Hmmm, interesting idea. Adds to the complexity and price, but also adds to the flexibility of the hammer for different uses.



This discussion is good.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2006 - 03:49pm PT
Calling Bill Forshee or anyone that knows where he is or how one might get ahold of him...

Arrgh - and where be those scurvile, wenching wretches when you need one???? Someone send the Jolly Roger up and give'm a shot across their bow...!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2006 - 06:31pm PT
Bryan,

Why was it called the “McDevitt" hammer?

[ Edit: I see a Dan McDevitt mentioned in the Tucker Tech thread and would guess it isn't a coincidence... ]
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Feb 17, 2006 - 11:53pm PT
Yes, Dan helped with the design of the hammer. The McDevitts (Dan and Sue) are a well-known force in Yosemite climbing.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2006 - 05:51am PT
"There's nothing more frustrating than beaking in corners with a rounded hammer head, well, actually there might be."

Eric,

Could elaborate on this a bit. I would think if you were in tight quarters you'd want well-chanferred corners so you weren't hanging up on the sharp, square edges (speaking about the hammer side of the head).

As for one that swings itself? Nah, no one would want you nearing retirement having to drink beers with a straw because we let that arm atrophy. Ya can't swing on a rope wielding a sabre with one arm either.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2006 - 05:58am PT
Ah, the McDevitt's that are all over many of the books about the Valley - duh, of course. Well, I'm definitely an interloper here in all this. ST is like catching the afterglow of a very large explosion. You know you missed the main act, but from what you can gleen here you can tell there's still plenty of shrapnel flying and no shortage of heat and steam still coming off from the epicenter.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2006 - 12:36am PT
Valley Legends and Stonemasters,

Could someone me in contact with Dan McDevitt to find out whether he still has info on the manufacture of the McDevitt hammer? Ditto for Bill Forshee of Klym Me Rock Products. Thanks...
WBraun

climber
Feb 28, 2006 - 12:38am PT
Healyje

Email Walleye for Dan McDevitt contact or Jobee
bringmeshelter

Social climber
la la land
Feb 28, 2006 - 01:18am PT
As long as the hammer works good as a beer can crusher I'm happy.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2006 - 01:23am PT
Cool Werner, thanks, I will...

Now, anyone know the whereabouts of Bill Forshee...?
bringmeshelter

Social climber
la la land
Feb 28, 2006 - 01:31am PT
Dude, does anyone have the crazy nut tool that they put out??? I know klaus used to have one that I saw on ebay. I met another guy who had one and it was so funny.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2006 - 01:34am PT
I got the one on ebay and sent it to Stephane's Nut Museum in Corsica, France. He wet his pants on receiving it.
bringmeshelter

Social climber
la la land
Feb 28, 2006 - 01:55am PT
Ya, I should try and find one and use it as a nut tool, cause I just use a knifeblade so far. I'd love to bring the new level of dorkiness back!
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Feb 28, 2006 - 02:02am PT
What's one worth to you - $...?
bringmeshelter

Social climber
la la land
Feb 28, 2006 - 02:06am PT
Ha not much... hell there is a reason I don't even own a normal nut tool. I've left one nut fixed... a nut tool wouldn't have helped that one! Who am I kidding I'm retired from climbing... I haven't even walked outside in like 3 days.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 14, 2006 - 06:59pm PT
Well, I had a good talk with Dan McDevitt this afternoon. He basically said he and others much preferred the head on the "McDevitt Hammer" (posted above), particularly for heading. He said he never had to take a chisel along since he got one of those hammers. He thought the A5 was general too "rounded" all the way around and that it had a smaller face because of it. He did like the feel of the A5 and said he preferred the A5's fatter handle. Also, he said they sold these hammers in the Mountain Shop for a time.

Unfortunately he didn't know what material was used to make them or how to get ahold of Bill Forshee who made them. I tracked down an old number for his company "Klymb Me Rock Products" and that number put it in Saugus, CA. There is a W. Forshee in the directory that I'll try later today. If anyone knows Bill's whereabouts it would be a help.

In general, if we wanted to make this hammer we'd have to figure out what it's made of. Dan and I did talk about the possibility of simply cleaning the fillets out of the A5 head molds to make the head squarer but that wouldn't result in the same pick end. So Bryan, if you want to make that hammer we need dimensions and the material it's made of. Maybe if you sent it to Theron he could tell you.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 14, 2006 - 07:48pm PT
Yep, will go back on ebay when I'm done...

I like the idea of really looking at the leash. Seems as though you'd want it either strong enough to use or weak enough to not leave you suspended in space from it. Two extremes.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Mar 15, 2006 - 09:54pm PT
The real question is whether or not everyone else wants to make the “McDevitt” hammer. I am happy to post or send you (Joseph) rough drafts of some prototypes of the head, with refinements. I couldn’t find a draft of the existing design, but it wouldn’t be too difficult to draft something up. There might be a machine shop here in town that would be able to tell me the type of steel alloy and hardness; otherwise I can send one to Theron.

It seems like a lot of the interest in the first Deuce5 thread is towards producing the original A5 hammer, because of the hammer’s good reputation. Even if a new design is an improvement, I’m not sure if everyone will be as interested as they are in the A5 hammer. So, maybe we should discuss the idea of a new design some more, and see if it appeals to those who are in the market for a new hammer. More comments from those who have a good bit of nailing experience wouldn’t hurt either. What does Conrad think of this idea? Don’t they have a new hammer design as well? Deucey, your comments would be helpful and appreciated. I remember that you made a few comments about the “McDevitt” hammer when I saw you at the Berkeley Marmot a while back; you thought that the hammer was not properly balanced. Maybe that is something else that we can look into. If this design (or something similar to it) ends up being the preferred option, then we also need to redesign the head / handle attachment so that it is more secure. There are lots of things to think about…
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 15, 2006 - 11:51pm PT
I'd be happy with either hammer, but right now, I am in the market for a hammer, and the one sitting on the rack at Sunrise, which is a BD, is looking like it will fit the bill. Mostly I need something for drilling holes.

Now having multiple hammers is probably a good thing. I'm still in...

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2006 - 12:47am PT
One of Dan's main comments was that this was the best hammer made for hand drilling as well due to the large, flat face (and that was what he mainly used it for...).
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Mar 24, 2006 - 02:01pm PT
Is this hammer project dead or what???
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2006 - 03:07pm PT
Nope, we just need to decide what we're actually doing and get on with it. What hammer do folks actually want to build? I had no luck with Forshee so you'd have to sort out the details of the McDevitt hammer if we're going that direction.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Mar 24, 2006 - 08:06pm PT
Why don't you compare a McDevitt and an A5. Go out and smack the crap out of some pins, paste a copperhead, and drill a few bolts with each. That should tell you which one we should build. If you think the McDevitt should be attached like the A5 then make it so. If you need help let me know. Let's get it done!

Zander

Trad climber
Berkeley
Mar 24, 2006 - 08:51pm PT
Healyje,
Some observations;
If this goes to a commitee we'll never see these hammers in our lifetimes.
No project ever gets done perfectly.

So, my two cents. You got the idea. You found the molds, You got pricing. You got the rights to do it. Now just finish the job.

I'm not much of an aid climber and won't get bent out of shape whatever you decide. I will use the hammer if I have it. I'm just in this for the fun of it.
Thanks for all your work
Zander


yo

climber
I'm so over it
May 4, 2006 - 08:55pm PT
bump


?
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
May 21, 2007 - 01:57am PT
Healj?

How is your energy level and interest level these days on this?

thx,
M
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2007 - 04:54am PT
Theron made a couple of blended A5/McDevitt prototype heads and Mineral's A5 hammer just got sent to the handle plant in Tennessee so they can see if they can once and for all figure out which one we're really talking about.

Yo, sorry I missed your 5/4 bump...
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
May 21, 2007 - 09:33am PT
Haven't seen this thread for a while.

Looks like you are going with a machined version (sigh).

The "McDivett hammer" looks a bit primitive to me. When I had A5, I got similar looking (machined) hammer samples from a company in Asia (Young Chu, the same guy who got Cole started with boots) that was offering them to me for about $9 each, but after having started climbing with a forged Chouinard hammer (the original Yo hammer), I had to go with a forged design, which ended up costing over $50 each.

But I can understand why you're not going with the extra work of the forged design. It's kind of like art, I suppose, I don't think you'll get the "feel" of a forged hammer, but I'm sure it will be something that works.

Here's some pics of the first hammer batch back in 1986:


And some more hammer pics:






Ben909

Trad climber
toronto
May 21, 2007 - 09:52am PT
Hey John,

I almost lost the hammer you gave to Anibal to airport security coming back from Cuba. Fifteen minutes of pleading in my non existant spanish did the trick. I wasn't able to convince them that the hammer was special, they just got tired of arguing with me. Never pounded any pins but it does the trick for bolts!
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
May 21, 2007 - 10:51am PT
The Project is far from dead. We are actually gaining momentum. The Hammer Handles are the catch right now. The handle company is figuring out what the original handles were so they can send me two samples to mount and test. John, we haven't ruled out going with the forged head at all. We are looking at modifying the forging dies possibly. We would like to test a couple of slight tweaks to your excellent design first.

The Beaks are really moving along. I just did some CAD work on them last night after talking with Bryan about what will most likely be final tweaks.

Theron

P.S. Cool pics of the original production. I use a Bridgeport just like the one in the photo!
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
May 21, 2007 - 11:03am PT
Hey John,
Since you are the original source for a lot of the misinformation about placing heads with a hammer pick, do you still advocate packing copper with the hammer directly rather than using a punch, Arrow tip or other more suitable tool? The only time that I ever use the pick is to gently set the preshaped head into position to free up my hands. The rest of the operation never engages the pick, period. I am a journeyman carpenter, swing a 32oz. Vaughn on the job (none bigger) and am as true and accurate in my swing as anyone out there. You are fooling yourself if you think you are accurate enough to not flare the rock around the placement while forcefully pecking away up there. Just plain lousy and destructive technique at this point isn't it? Any defenders care to step up?
JLP

Social climber
The internet
May 21, 2007 - 11:20am PT
I use chisels for heads. Agree w/ Steve above. Maybe a swing or two for pre-shaping and the first few whacks, but then the chisel.

The thing I haven't seen discussed too much here, though, is cleaning. I use the smaller tip of my BD hammer maybe about 1/3 of the time for cleaning. It's more accurate and allows me to hit a certain part of the pin in a certain direction. It also clears into corners better and generally allows one to have a biner on the pin w/o destroying it.

Can't imagine how you'd make any money by machining the head. Machining is generally very expensive, unless you plan on your head looking like a box. There are a lot of casting/forging options out there.

The BD hammer is perfection, though, and I already have one. Always liked the A5 version as well, but they were not as widely available.

JLP
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
May 21, 2007 - 11:35am PT
Steve, not sure what reference you refer to. Personally, I find setting a #3 head or bigger with the pick of the hammer works well, then I X-em, paste-em, rock-em and sniff-em with a blunt chisel. Sometimes even a #2 can be initially set with the hammer, but not generally. I don't recall ever advocating placing heads completely with a hammer?

Though I am sure there must have been a time or two when I was strung out half free climbing and had to place and set a head with one hand, in which case the pick comes in mightily handy.

I sure hope you're not putting me in the rock bashing crowd; if it were true, you might be the only bonafide purist.
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
May 21, 2007 - 11:38am PT
Hi Ben-

Remind me which hammer that was? I remember sending some gear down to Anibal, mostly buckles, materials and stuff (they're pretty crafty down there where gear is unavailable), but I don't think he ever got it (scarfed by Cuban customs?). Did I send him a hammer too?
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
May 21, 2007 - 12:35pm PT
John- I am not interested in pigeon holing you here at all. I read lots of references in this thread about designing the pick shape specifically for copperheading. The misinformation that I am referring to comes into play when the pick is used on smaller heads. I think lots of folks take your instruction too literally.

My personal technique is a little out of the mainstream. I don't even own a funkness device for instance. Copperheads can be a low impact option if placed and REMOVED responsibly with all due attention to rock degradation. They have also become a serious visual blight that unnecessarily degrades the overall aid climbing experience when mank ladders are the result. They have their place just as pitons do but should remain a last resort due to their propensity for being left fixed.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
May 21, 2007 - 01:36pm PT
So... Steve, care to enlighten us on how to place and remove copperheads?
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
May 21, 2007 - 03:15pm PT
Second the tmostion.

especially removal

balancing between testing lightly the smaller sizes...

thx!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2007 - 05:57pm PT
John, those are fabulous pics, some real history there - thanks for posting those. As Theron said, we haven't made the decision yet as to just using the Ajax molds or not, just wanted to explore our options there. The changing of the guard at Link Handle is taking a bit of time to work through, but I think we're about there. I'd love to see some more discussion about hammers and heading. I need to look back and see what Eric K. posted up, but from my conversations it seems like the folks with McDevitt hammers are pretty attached to them and sound like their comments about the differences make sense, but then, I'm not really qualified to make that judgment - you old Valley guys are.
Ben909

Trad climber
toronto
May 21, 2007 - 08:47pm PT
Hi John,

I think he said you gave it to him when he was down in Utah doing some training with Exum. It's an A5 hammer, beyond that I have no idea. Anibal is living in Toronto now and has even taken to ice climbing.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
May 21, 2007 - 09:11pm PT
My comments are mostly intended to relate to hammer pick use as people seem to be wanting to design the pick for heading more than for removing pitons. The blunt pick on the standard Yo hammer was designed specifically to allow the piton shoulder to be struck while cleaning to save wear and tear on the less robust eye area. With less piton use in general and fewer overdriven pitons specifically, the blunt configuration has become less necessary.

Too much thinning or stretching toward a Crag hammer shape, however, makes the pick useless for piton removal. John's design struck a good compromise by easing the pick end vertically and introducing more droop to enhance its prying performance. The eased pick shape definitely offers a narrower and hence better surface for contacting copperheads than a Yo hammer. The A5 hammer also retained the full head weight necessary for efficient drilling and driving of thin blades. The drilled Yo hammer lost some head weight so I never considered getting one.

I don't use the clip-in hole personally but I'm sure lots of folks would be lost without it. A cable funkness device is the best way to trash a hammer that you could come up with if you think about the forces involved. I prefer a girth hitched runner for cleaning and testing with my hand supporting the head itself. Does everybody want a new hammer because the head's off the old one?

I hope this input is somewhat useful. A treatise on heading will have to wait for another thread. Simple but involved...
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
May 21, 2007 - 10:48pm PT
Hi Ben-

Are you saying Anibal left Cuba??? Or does he have a permit to come and go? When I was in Cuba we stayed at his Mom's place in Havana. The stories she told were amazing, her life is one that a book/play/musical could be written about.

Hey Steve, thanks for the comments. It takes a true connoisseur to really understand the nuances of what makes a good hammer, it seems.

T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
May 22, 2007 - 03:10am PT
OK........Steve, thanks for your valuable input.

You answered the half of the question about design. What about the other half of the question: technique? Come on, spill the beans on your "better way" of heading.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2007 - 03:30am PT
I agree, out with it. I looked back at Klaus' brief comment which appeared to have good things to say about the McDevitt pick shape. And in general with this discussion of pin removal I wonder just what is the likely ratio of hammer use these days relative to heading vs pin removal? People are still using pins, but at least where we are they're all being fixed - not placed and removed. Seems to me the head weight for drilling is a no-brainer. So what do folks think the priorites should be? Drilling weight, pin removal, heading? The advocates of both designs seem to be advocating best of all worlds.

Again, we may very well just go with the existing mold, think of this as giving folks an opportunity wade in with other preferences and ideas. Maybe the two prototypes should spend some time with John and Steve at the very least, though I'd like to think we could talk Klaus into taking a look as well.
Ben909

Trad climber
toronto
May 22, 2007 - 10:30am PT
John,

Anibal married and has been living in Toronto, working at MEC, for a year and a half. He still makes it down to Cuba each winter to visit Vinales and his family. His mother's house was fully booked while I was down so I only met her briefly. The warmth and resourcefullness of the Cuban people is unmatched in my opinion. We encountered kids on the trail who had climbing shoes but walked everywhere else barefoot. Anyways, sorry for the hijack everyone.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
May 22, 2007 - 11:44am PT
I think Occam's Razor is going to lead you right back to the A5 head shape and weight for a wall hammer. To further narrow the pick toward the McDevitt shape doesn't really gain any utility. Placing heads and cleaning wires are still best accomplished with the appropriate tools. Striking the piton shoulder with a much reduced pick is going to promote wear and tear. The A5 nose is about perfect really. Head weight and handle are the crucial criteria.

The hammer handle should be short, straight and made of wood. The hammer needs to be compact to allow easy use and overhead drilling. A straight handle turns easily in the hand while alternating between pick and striking end. This is not about generating wallop framing hammer style. For feel and vibration dampening (both critical) wood is the only choice with hickory the first choice and ash the second.

Completely forget about a synthetic handle like the BD blue plastic Inspector Gadget Transformer Hammer not quite shown earlier in the thread. Interchangeable picks seems like a great idea if you are machining already but ask yourself honestly if carrying spare picks to change is realistic or necessary for a wall hammer. Lastly, the time honored bent tang head attachment method protects the crucial area below the head and doesn't work loose. No design improvement is necessary here IMO.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2007 - 01:47pm PT
Steve, good comments. I would say that there appear to be more than a few folks who would disagree with your comments on pick shape relative to heading which is why most of this exploration has been taking place. There were also a bunch of comments on not rounding the corners off quite so much on the hammer head. Those have been the two principal comments to-date. As for the handle, we're working with the same company to locate the same handle used on the A5, though there are folks who've expressed a desire for a bit more length. Sounds in general like you operate with a preference for precision over power.
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
May 22, 2007 - 03:22pm PT
Joe, at some point you might want to consider an executive decision based on your gut instinct. That's what art is, after all. Not sure where you are getting the funds, but it is quite an investment, so I understand your caution.

Anyway, of course if you ask me (as you have), I will always say: forged hammer head (NOT cast, and NOT machined), straight hickory handle (not too long), tangs, etc. The design I have produced is "my opinion", in other words.

You'll also want to make sure the head is balanced properly, something which often is neglected with the sudden onslew of big wall hammer designers.

I made a wood model of the A5 design prior to crafting the blueprint to calculate the balance point.

You go guy.


"A camel is a horse designed by committee"
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
May 22, 2007 - 03:24pm PT
ps. Ben, thanks for the update on Anibal. Please give him my best if you get in touch with him.

cheers
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
May 22, 2007 - 11:40pm PT
an old A5 hammer just sold for $160 on ebay. I was willing to go up to 150...oh well. I bet one of you guys got it...
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
May 23, 2007 - 12:18am PT
It wasn't me bro but here is a side by side. My original Yo hammer from 1970 and the A5.




The A5 has a heavier head and more updated design (better for drilling)but if I was cleaning pins all the day long the Yo would be my choice based on feel and balance. Both are outstanding options for distinct reasons.

And for dessert, 68 Chouinard catalog hammer description and treatise on piton use. This is the shizzle on nailing straight from the folks crafting the iron.

It is worth noting that Chouinard Equipment opened its doors in 1957 and didn't produce a hammer until 1966.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
May 23, 2007 - 12:36am PT
very cool Steve, thx.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2007 - 12:40am PT
Steve thanks, and Lambone - sorry, it was me. It was getting silly trying to build one of them when I've never actually held one.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
May 24, 2007 - 01:03pm PT
damn, do you even climb walls? It's a shame if you don't. sell it to me when you are done...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2007 - 10:35pm PT
Lambone, haven't done one yet. Still trying to work out getting one in...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2007 - 10:58pm PT
John,

So, courtesy of Eric Malone and ebay I finally have an A5 hammer in my hands today (love the feel of it). And by co-incidence I also talked with Lewis McNeal of Seymour Link Handle. Theron sent Bryan's A5 hammer to Lewis who now thinks he's got a handle that will work and is going to ship a couple to Theron.

But, he was observing Bryan's hammer and noted the metal wedges had split the hammer and and Bryan had also run a nail into it. He also noted those splits propogated below the hanldle and wondered if we wanted him to pre-notch the handles for a wedge to control the splitting. Looking at Eric's hammer which just arrived I see the same deal on his (see pics).

So I'm guessing they all pretty much do this and that it's not a big deal or interfere with the hammer all that much. I also noted the McDevitt hammer (I believe) has a transverse hole drilled through the head and wedge with rolled brass(?) to secure the wedge. In general I didn't want to give Lewis an answer before getting your opinion and anyone else's who has one.

Also, now that I do have an A5 in my hand I'm not sure how the pick could get any skinnier without making it longer or a different design. And as for the rounded corners on the face of the hammer, I can see the top corners a touch more rounded than the bottom ones, but they don't seem excessively so and in fact maybe this was done in finishing versus the mold? Unless folks are speaking of the fact that the face is more like slight opposing trapezoids than a square. Curious which is the source of the complaints vis-a-vis the McDevitt - the rounded actual top corners, or the shape of the face not being a perfect square?




healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2007 - 05:48am PT
Got an out-of-office reply from John saying he's gone for most of June so we'll probably just plow on...
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Jun 5, 2007 - 07:14pm PT
LOL, I've actually used that alpine hammer on a climb, just a couple of years ago, climbing with Stegg. It's good for cleaning dirt and crap out of cracks.
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Jun 5, 2007 - 07:30pm PT
I always liked the Forrest Wall Whammer.... liked the extra handle length and the head was a good shape. Anyone got one???? we're talking cash money......
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jun 5, 2007 - 08:04pm PT
Healje,

Are you planning to make hammers for commercial production, or just for friends and stuff. Can I get my name on the list for one?

As far as sharp corners as far as Bryan mentioned, sounds good for beaks in corners, but also sounds sharp. My hammer is ussualy flopping around at my side, and I wouldn't want too sharp of corners on it. Especially when you are pressed into a corner.

Maybe that's not an issue.

With a longer handle I can see you needing to be more accurate, and I don't really think hammers need more driving force for general Yosemite use, a few taps on a pin in a pin scar is ussualy enough. Mybe harder walls or more extreme aid would require a heavier hammer, and I guess Bryan does that stuff...

cool.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jun 5, 2007 - 10:16pm PT
I have an unfinished A5 hammer head that John tossed in with about fifty unfinished beaks he sold me. It's pretty much right off the forging dies, except for the partially-drilled funkness hole.

The face edges are not rounded at all, and have very sharp, cut-yourself, edges. Also, the face is shiny with machining marks, unlike the rest of the hammer. It looks like two hammers were forged as siamese twins, and then cut apart.

This would make sense, because it would eliminate the horizontal reaction forces (and wear) on the expensive forging dies.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2007 - 10:36pm PT
Tom, could we get you to either lend that hammer head to us for a bit or post good photos of all sides of it - none of us have seen one straight off the forge relative to what the finishing work will entail.

Lambone, the plan is we'd do a run of 250 of them with John and Conrad's blessings and will charge cost + shipping + a donation to the Alex Lowe Charitable Foundation and their Khumbu Climbing School which helps increase the technical competency of Nepali people who work and climb in the mountain regions.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jun 5, 2007 - 11:11pm PT
I'll shoot and post some photos of that unfinished A5 head. It looks just like the photos Steve posted, except for maybe a bit of roughness at the parting line, down the sides.





Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jun 6, 2007 - 01:18am PT
Why yes Russ, I do have one. Not getting rid of it for less than the cost of tuition for say, an smh credential program, though.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Jun 6, 2007 - 01:23am PT
Wasn't that hammer called Molinjar? The Forest one.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2007 - 02:27am PT
Dirt,

Yes, at least one of Bill's hammers was a Molinjar. I have one and it is a great hammer, just a tad light and stiff.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Jun 6, 2007 - 03:44am PT
Thanks HJE.

For those who don't know already, Molinjar was the name of Thor's hammer
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jun 6, 2007 - 03:29pm PT
"Lambone, the plan is we'd do a run of 250 of them with John and Conrad's blessings and will charge cost + shipping + a donation to the Alex Lowe Charitable Foundation and their Khumbu Climbing School which helps increase the technical competency of Nepali people who work and climb in the mountain regions."

Dude, right on! Sign me up!
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Jun 6, 2007 - 05:00pm PT
And Lo, the BD hammer was good.

It's name..... Mungillgnar!

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2007 - 08:39pm PT
Got this from Lewis McNeal of Seymour Link Handle with notes on the wedging...
------------------------------------------

Hello Mr. Healy,

Please reference the below drawing.

Wooden wedges are used to push the wood in the handle eye in two directions and the flat wedge locks the wooden wedge in place. Using just a flat steel wedge in an unslotted eye will probably cause the handle to split and crack in unpredictable places.

Placement and orientation of the steel wedge is a judgment call after examining the grain orientation of the handle. Typically the wedge is oriented at 90 degrees to the grain. Another type of wedge is round and pushes the wood in all directions. The wedge is shaped like a hollow cone with a lip around the small end.

And, yes we sell wedges.

Lewis McNeal
Seymour Manufacturing
Link Handle Division
219 Handle Street
Sequatchie, TN 37374

Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jun 7, 2007 - 11:10pm PT
If wall use and a funkness hole are in the picture, the conventional pitched hook straps are mandatory. Wedged wood against the formed head alone is likely going to lead to head loosening as contact points on the hardwood inevitably compress and wear open.
Neither of my hammers has any wooden wedge present since the tapered handle does the same job while snugging into the hookstraps until the transverse pin can be drilled, driven and peened.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jun 8, 2007 - 12:09am PT
I didn't measure my A5 head, but, I think the usual thing is to have the hole taper outwards and up, so that the the wedges lock the handle in solidly.

I've always removed a broken hammer or axe handle by cutting it off at the base of the head, and driving the rest out the top.


I have a slip-removed handle of a c. 1972 Chouinard ice hammer, which has a wedge in it. I have no idea if I drove it in, maybe 20 years ago, to secure the head.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2007 - 12:49am PT
We are definitely using the hookstraps! Lewis, is simply suggesting it would be better to use a wooden wedge as well. The A5 doesn't have a traverse pin, though if you were to add a wooden wedge then that seems like it might be a good addition even if it means incurring the additional cost of another drilling.

Edit: Steve, I see you were speaking of the traverse pin in the handle. I was speaking of a traverse pin through the head as sported on the McDevitt hammer. I can understand the view a wooden wedge would be redundant, but it appears that at least some folks have had to retighten the head...
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jun 8, 2007 - 09:44am PT
Here are some photos of the raw A5 hammer head I have.

After looking at it, it seems that after forging it, some other operations by the forging company took place. The flashing at the parting line was ground off, and it was sandblasted. There are still some grinding marks at the parting line, showing through the sandblasting.

Striations passing completely through the hammer hole indicate that it was sized by a movable slide/punch in the forging die. Alternatively, a secondary operation in different dies may have been performed. There is some sandblasting evidence within the hole.

The face does not have a sandblasted finish, and is shiny and quite different from the other surfaces.

The photos Steve posted show a more finished, smoother head. John may have sanded them, or otherwise cleaned the outer surfaces a bit. For example, the parting line is not nearly as prominent in the photos Steve posted. My impression is that this would not be necessary, especially for a tool intended for use by hard-core wall monkeys.


Now then:

As soon as I have some spare $$$ and find a shop that can properly heat treat the 4142 steel, I will have the head hardened so I can use it. As a bonus, I'll have the shop also heat treat the fifty-odd A5 beaks I have, so I will finally have enough pins to go up and nail the Triple Cracks on the Shield 8-)





EDIT: When the open source A5 Birdbeak project takes off, here's something to look at. It's the milling jig, used to cut the taper of the business end. John told me that Walt Shipley made this for him. It's a flat plate that was mounted on a tilted base of some sort, maybe a block held in a vise.


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2007 - 12:03pm PT
Tom,

Wow!!! Great contribution. Had no idea the funk hole was partially forged - curious why it isn't forged from both sides. And the corners of the face are square, meaning they are rounded over in finishing which, if someone didn't want that, could be skipped.

As far as the Beaks end of the project goes, Bryan and Theron have been hard at it on a new design. They've made a few rounds of prototypes and will be looking into the cost of having a new stamping die made by the same folks who have the existing A5 (Hurricane) Beak die. I'd still be interested in the interest on the old design as well. The quote we got was for 2500 of them at $.075 each.

The die shot is also fantastic! Do you have the die? As far as heat treating goes I suspect Theron could set you up with someone.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jun 8, 2007 - 01:59pm PT
The funk hole was drilled, not forged. The head I have is a reject, with the funk hole offset by about 1/16" to one side. The hole was drilled about halfway through. I'll probably drill it the rest of the way and ignore that it's a bit to one side.

If you have new dies made for the hammer, you should probably have the funk hole punched along with the handle hole. They're parallel to each other, and perpendicular to the parting line.


I have that beak machining jig. Looking closely at the beaks, it actually looks like the taper on the tips was cut with a grinder or sander, which makes more sense than milling. The jig might have been mounted to a block that had stops, so it could be pressed against a belt sander to cut the taper precisely.


Who has the original A5 hammer dies? And the Birdbeak dies?


Any time you have a part made, you should own the tooling yourself. If the shop owns the tooling you're constrained to working with them. The shop will charge you to make the tooling, so you should have full ownership of it. Naturally, they'll resist this, at first.

It's like an ISP wanting to own your domain name: don't do it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2007 - 04:19pm PT
Ajax the original forger in LA has the hammer mold and WLS the stamping outfit in Cleveland remarkably still has the 'Hurricane' Beak die. Tracking down the right handle has been the biggest deal.

Thanks for the clarification on the hole! I was wondering about that as well as why the funk hole couldn't be forged as well - have to ask John, but I suspect the answer is a freestanding post that size wouldn't hold up over a lot of heads, but who knows...
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jun 11, 2007 - 11:19pm PT
So, it seems that the forging dies for the hammer, and stamping/blanking dies for the Hurricane beak are still viable, regardless of who owns them.


This regards the Beak, not the Hammer:

The beak jig I have has two flaws: it has no ability to hold the part; it doesn't have a way to hold the angle for cutting the taper at the tip.


I think Walt's jig was intended for use with separate means for securing it, at the proper angle, to the machine. This would entail some sort of additional setup time, with another piece of hardware.


If I was cutting the taper on those beaks, I'd use a jig, with a hold-down, and then sand/grind the taper on a belt sander, the angled jig resting on a 90-degree table to the belt. Adjustable stops would allow cutting the taper just right.

I don't see how it could be done any easier, and have a very short set-up time.


NOW, THEN, BACK TO THE HAMMER:

I think some level of artisan work on the rough pieces from the forging company is in order. If open-source, maybe just let the user clean the parts up, as they see fit. The handle hole could be an issue; but otherwise, the part seems good, right off the dies.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Jul 15, 2007 - 08:36pm PT
I went climbing and missed the discussion here in June.

I would like to report progress on all fronts. The prototype beaks (hopefully the last round) are in the deburr tumbler as I type this. They will get the taper and bend Tuesday most likely. Then shipment to Bryan for approval and testing.

I think we have finally found the correct hammer handle. It is close enough to give it a try. I think we still need to work out the wedge if we are going to use one. The A5 handle was sawed off at a angle to match the top of the head. That threw me off for a little in regards to length.

Tom: I have two new handles and would love to use your head as a test case. In return I think you would get a completed hammer with handle and tangs. If you haven't already gotten your stuff heattreated I would love to piggyback some stuff in with you. I have some new style beaks, russian aider hooks, and some old style beaks that I would like to get done. Let me know if you are interested.

Here is some food for thought. Sorry for the poor quality of photo in a couple of the shots.

A5 next to McDevit Hammer:

Side view of A5 Head:

Side view of McDevit Head:

Top view of A5 Head:

Top view of McDevit Head:

New Handle next to A5 Hammer:

Bottom of A5 Handle and New Handle:

IMHO the A5 is a superior design. The square (as opposed to sharp) corners don't seem to be an issue. The balance/feel of the A5 is phenomenally good.

I would love to hear some more feedback on this.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Jul 15, 2007 - 08:46pm PT
Tom,

I built my own set up fixture. It is somewhat similiar to Walts. The fixture gets clamped vertically in a mill vise. The vise gets angled to create the angle on the beak.

The way I "read" the beak was that it had milling marks not grinding marks. IMHO sanding would not be accurate enough and grinding is to tedious.

I totally agree about owning your own tooling. I worked for a man who had had dies made and then the company went under and he couldn't get his dies. Sucked to have paid for them and then couldn't use them. After that he had companies send the dies to us after they used them. We would ship them back to get our parts made and the die would come back with the finished parts.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jul 16, 2007 - 12:45am PT
TMoses, that new handle looks like it's about the same as the A5 next to it. When you install the handle, quite a bit will stick up out of the head. After driving the head on securely, you cut the excess handle off and install the wedge(s), if they're used. The angle of the handle to match the head isn't going to be an issue. You slice off the excess handle flush with the head.

Email me about that A5 head that I have. I don't want it mounted to a handle, yet. It needs to be heat-treated.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2007 - 04:35am PT
Theron, thanks for posting those pics. And for the status report. I chopped up your photo and it looks like the handle is a tad long and has a different base profile as you said before. We can do another round with Lewis and O.P.Link Handle or just go with this. I think John recalled it being a custom order we'd have to recreate whereas Lewis sounds like he has these in stock. Thoughts on if we should keep after getting the exact handle...?

And in the interim both Theron and I have each acquired an A5 hammer and both agree we think it is the business and we should skip the mods and alternatives and just take the decision to go with John's basically flawless design and get on with it.

couchmaster

climber
Jul 16, 2007 - 11:02am PT
JH, looks like this project is falling on your shoulders more than just being a group collaboration.

Assuming that someone like Russ doesn't want the responsibility of building the worlds best hammer and reaping the prestige and massive amount of financial rewards sure to follow (*cough* cough*) , if I can be of any small or large assistance in helping to make this project happen, you have but to ask.

Warm regards;

Bill

P.S. John, great pics, proving only once again that you still obviously rule.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2007 - 12:17pm PT
Bill,

Thanks for the offer of help!

The back and forth has been slow, but we're slowly making our way through the process. For the longest time it was legal concerns, of late trying to pin down the right handle, and shortly I think we'll be on to just getting them done. Help will certainly welcome once we start rolling on it. Probably need to requote the heads, figure out who is going to drill the funk holes, line up heat treatment, get the tangs made up, and sort out the assembly. Probably start that planning process fairly soon. Will keep everyone informed.
Wade Icey

Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
Jul 16, 2007 - 01:19pm PT
Assuming that someone like Russ doesn't want the responsibility....



Joseph, you can relax and work on your slacklining now. Russ is gonna work straight through in a push to build the FISH/A5 Hammer. Dream come true. Look for a naming contest soon.

cheers,

Wade
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2007 - 01:54pm PT
Wade, that would work for me, but it probably would be a good idea to check with Conrad before anyone tried to proceed with a commercial version...
couchmaster

climber
Jul 16, 2007 - 07:10pm PT
I doubt Fish will call it an A5 hammer.

More like a "Fish Wall Wanger" or a "Fammer".

A forged head hammer on the A5 design, probably heads forged in China, handles from Tennessee of "Old Hickory" and assembled by dirt bagger gnomes in some Mexican sweatshoppe.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2007 - 07:22pm PT
Using secret alien technologies...
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Jul 17, 2007 - 01:58am PT
The alien technology isn't working to well right now. Their brazes are cold.

Anyway, back on topic.

Tom,
Yeah that is what I came to realize last Thursday when I really spent some time studying all the parts. Thanks for the confirmation. Will email you after posting this.

Joseph has brought to light one of my other concerns. The new handle is about a half an inch taller than the A5. Solutions I see would be to use shorter tangs, get a custom handle, or use a wedge in the top and locating the head a half an inch higher on the shaft. I think that I need to contact Lewis and talk handles again. I would love to see as exact a copy of the original handle as possible. I think that by lengthening the shaft the "feel" and balance would change.

Couch,
Joseph has always been in the lead. We just chime in with opinions and advice. Sometimes we even get something done instead of just flappin' our gums. I think Fish is to busy climbing or getting a haircut or making movies of his extraordinary toes to do the A5 Hammers.;)

Theron

Couch Edit: The way the Chinesse are screwin' stuff up right now I wouldn't buy a A5 Hammer from there. Their metal is not a good a quality as our domestic steel. Trust me I know. I don't by import metal anymore, period. Mexican sweatshops on the other hand are improving drasticly.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2007 - 02:02am PT
I'll do another go around with Lewis on the handles and see what it yields - I suspect we'll have to go with a custom order but that's ok as well. I really am not inclined to mess with the formula now that I've swung one...
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jul 17, 2007 - 06:37am PT
I have a handle from a c. 1974 Chouinard ice hammer that was pulled out and replaced. Oddly enough, it fits the A5 head perfectly. It seems a bit short, only 11-5/8" long.


The Chouinard handle has a rectangular, non-tapered tenon that engages the head. There is no slot or wooden wedge. It has a metal wedge that was probably placed by me as the head loosened over the years.

The wide faces of the tenon have 1/8" rabbets, against which the head seats. The two narrow faces extend down far enough to fully engage the tangs.

The two narrow faces that engage the tangs look like they could be formed on a sander. They extend down to where the rounded neck is thin, providing a relief zone for the edge of the belt or disk.

It looks like the tenon's rabbets could be cut on a table saw, with two blades separated by a spacer. The space between the teeth would leave the 3/4" width of the tenon. A simple jig to hold the handle vertically stable, and to ride against the rip fence without rotating, could be used to accurately cut the tenon. The previously sanded narrow flat faces could be used to locate the handle in the jig.


An existing, stock replacement handle could be modified in this manner. Furthermore, an existing handle could have the tip cut off, to eliminate the undesirable wedge slot.




healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2007 - 02:16pm PT
Tom, once again great photos and analysis. The jig / split blade idea is a good one. As for 'stock' handles, the ones Lewis sent to Theron appear to be the closest stock handles avialable (after a second attempt to find the old ones). The length issue appears to be an elongated neck as opposed to too much top.

And I'd still hold off on considering the wedge slot undesirable. As the handle manufacturer, Lewis, is pretty much turning up his nose on forgoing the slot as an inferior method of wedging. His position is: in order to get a pressure on all sides, really secure the head, and prevent the handle from splitting you should use both the wood and metal wedges. Given some folks have added nails to the heads to retighten them Lewis' point should be given a little thought is my feeling - the man does know his handles.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Jul 17, 2007 - 02:20pm PT
Are you saying he has a handle on the situation?
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jul 17, 2007 - 05:38pm PT
I think that for a tapered handle hole, like for a framing hammer or an axe, the taper makes sense. The handle slips in easily, then flares out at the top, to completely fill the hole. The flare can't pull back through the tapered hole and the head is secure from coming off. It's locked in the other direction by being driven down, to custom cut it's own shoulder rabbets into the wood. You stick the head on, and slam the handle vertically onto a rigid surface until the head won't move down any more. Then pound in the wedges and cut the excess off. All of that makes sense, especially for a mass-produced handle that has rather loose dimensional tolerances.

On the other hand, if the hole isn't tapered (I'll go measure my A5 head and report back) then either A) the tenon has to be undersized or tapered, or B) there is no way in hell you are going to drive the wooden wedge in. The scientists call this "conservation of mass".

Also, any wedge slot would have a finite kerf (a laser could reduce it to 0.005", but I doubt that's a solution) which then leaves a void below the tip of the wedge. Typically, when a wooden wedge is driven in, it locks up and breaks off well before it bottoms out, leaving an even bigger void below it. If the handle fits snugly in an untapered hole, 90% of the void is going to remain below the wedge.

I won't bore you with the proof of my dementhesis regarding

space ---> time ---> entropy ---> degradation

but, will simply state that the presence of the void implies lowered reliability.

The slot itself acts as a stress concentrator, not something you typically want in a reliable product. It also presents a vibrational anomaly, producing a dissonant tone, of sorts, to the finished product, like a bell with a crack in it.

I'm neither a winter climber nor an expert on ice mechanics, but it seems to me that if the handle has a void that water can get into and freeze, it could be real trouble. How could the water get into the slot in the first place? Go ask those Okie Idiots about their 50-year old pristine Belvedere automobile they recently pulled from a "hermetic sarcophagus" buried in the Tulsa courthouse lawn.


If the tolerance of the hole in the head is maintained (check: the forging die forms the hole consistently) and the tolerance of the tenon can be maintained (check: proper shop procedure) there is no reason at all the handle can't have a tight fit in the head. Without actually trying it, a 0.015"-0.025" interference fit sounds about right. The straps are what secure the head from sliding off. The tenon's rabbets secure it in the other direction.


At some point, an Open Source project needs to go back to the Real Source, and remember that Chouinard learned his craft from a Swiss blacksmith, some guy called "Salathe". (Yes, I've seen photo's of the Salathe hammer, and I know it looks like something he got at the hardware store and modified. And probably comprised wood and metal wedges. That's not the point.) The point is that Chouinard and Middendorf, through real-time experience, decided that it was better to use a solid tenon and straps, not a slot and wedges.


How many desperate walls has your hammer handle salesman done?



EDIT: I forgot to mention that shrinkage of the handle over time is one of the main reasons you borrow the next guy's framing hammer to drive #8 sinkers into your own. Improperly kiln-dried material is to blame. Furthermore, I'd be surprised to learn that the handle manufacturers do a post-op kilning procedure to really ensure the strength and stability of their product.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2007 - 05:57pm PT
Tom, with all due respect to you, Yvonne, and John - Lewis isn't a handle salesman - he's an engineer and the plant manager of the plant that's been making handles for endless applications for over a century. Has he done a wall? Unlikely, but he does have an A5 hammer sitting on his desk so is familiar with both the engineering and the hammer itself even if he hasn't been on a wall.

P.S. Are you volunteering to take this damn handle business off Theron and my hands...? We'd sure appreciate it and you seem to be showing a great affinity towards handles. I'd be happy to forward you all of Lewis' contact info...
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Jul 17, 2007 - 08:45pm PT
Hmmm.... rough day at work?

I think Tom is concerned that we get a high quality Hammer is all. Valid input for the Open Source.

He has nicely offered to loan me his head to fit. He is definitely helping in the project already. Thanks.

Theron
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jul 17, 2007 - 10:40pm PT
Healyje, does your hammer handle engineer know that the hole in the A5 head is not tapered?


I have measured the A5 head's hole, and there is no appreciable taper. It is rectilinear to within less than 0.010", measured between any two opposite face points anywhere in the hole.

For the record, the hole is nominally 0.630" x 1.25". The corners have roughly 1/16" radii.

EDIT: I looked at the blueprint that John posted, and can see that the specs for the hole call for no taper, except for leading and trailing transitional regions. The length of the straight portion on the head I have seems to be longer than that shown on the drawing (which specifies a minimum straight section, not a maximum).


My "theory" that a rectangular tenon fitting snugly in a rectangular hole does not allow a wooden wedge to be driven in comes from experience. However, common sense also indicates that in order for the wedge to fully enter the slot, there must be clearance somewhere for the halves of the handle tenon to move into.



EDIT: This is the drawing sent by Lewis. Notice that the hammer hole shows a taper, and that after driving the wedges, the handle fills it.




When I replaced the handle on my Chouinard ice hammer (modified into a lightweight wall hammer) I took a handle I got at a Lowe's hardware store and shaped a rectangular tenon. I then inserted it into the hammer head and tried to place the wooden wedge, which moved in about 1/8", locked up and snapped off. The metal wedge went in OK, by beating the snot out of it.

And now?

The handle feels loose and rattly in the head, despite seeming to fit fairly tight before the wedge was driven. I think it's due to the aforementioned vibrational anomaly. That empty void essentially ensures that there will always be relative motion between the handle and the head.

So, I have to replace that handle, again. And this time I will not make the mistake of having a slot and wedges.


I think that the key to the stock handle replacement riddle is to use a replacement handle for a claw hammer, not a framing hammer. I have a claw hammer whose handle is 13 inches long, and does not have the long neck characteristic of framing hammers. For comparison, I have both 15 and 17 inch long framing hammer handles.

And FWIW, I have a 15 inch handle on my sub-sized wall hammer and it seems to be quite useful that way. For pounding pins in, or cleaning them, I hold the hammer about 2/3 of the way down from the head. This is very close to the center of percussion, or "sweet spot" with minimal vibration transmitted to my hand. Whether or not the handle is so long to interfere with freeclimbing is wholly unknown, seeing as how I am so pathetically weak, I am on record as aiding, with big cams, up the Hollow Flake crack.

Oh, and for taping rivet hangers or hooks onto the extra-long hammer, to cheat past moves? Priceless.


EDIT: Here are a claw hammmer, rather large framing hammer and my wall hammer. Notice that the the claw hammer handle doesn't have a long neck, like the other two.


Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Jul 17, 2007 - 10:41pm PT
I can't handle any more of this.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Jul 18, 2007 - 12:41pm PT
"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

And:

I am tending to agree with what Tom said about the non taper thingy. Tom, have you brought that issue up with Lewis?
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Jul 18, 2007 - 05:06pm PT
"Are you saying he has a handle on the situation?"

decline of western civilization as we know it...


:)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2007 - 08:03pm PT
Tom, I don't know if Lewis knows there's no taper. All I do know is he has one on his desk. All your comments make sense to me and maybe Lewis would agree based on the 'no taper' aspect of the design. I wasn't being harsh or flippant in my suggestion you take over the handle deal - as we go along there will be plenty of aspects of this that need to be managed and folks will be more than welcome to jump in and "handle" aspects of the project. Theron said he'd give Lewis a shout and see where we stand. I'm suspecting we'll have to disassemble my hammer and just send him the handle to copy and ask for more of them as a custom order.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jul 18, 2007 - 08:51pm PT
Healyje - Thanks for clearing that up.

If Lewis has a completed hammer on his desk, he probably has no idea that the eye is not tapered.

Since the top of the Chouinard handle I have fits the A5 head, that could be sent to Lewis, instead. Even though it's old, it's in pretty good condition, particularly the tenon that fits in the eye of the head. The actual dimensions of the tenon, to provide an interference fit, could be specified.

The cost to produce a short run of custom handles might be quite high, though. If he can provide an off-the-shelf handle that can be modified, that might be better. I could make the jigs and cut the tenons in my shop. Doing them in-house would also allow for fine-tuning the interference fit. Fifteen thousandths of an inch one way or the other would make a huge difference.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2007 - 03:24am PT
Tom, I think at this point we've been down the road of replicating this handle to the point where I think we'd at least like to see a quote before we turned away from that path to an alternative handle. That may well be the way we go, but let's make a last effort to either locate the right handle or get a quote for it before we make that call...
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jul 19, 2007 - 12:50pm PT
Absolutely. I was just mentioning that both options should be investigated.

I'm going to drop the A5 head and Chouinard handle off with Theron today.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2007 - 02:43am PT
Dropped by Jim Opdycke's place and Bill Coe was there collecting some gear he'd lent Jim and this Kong hammer was among the stuff. I hadn't seen one before. It's a pretty heavy and there's nothing refined about the feel or the manufacture. But the top wedge is a fairly interesting and I've never seen anything like it before.

Also, the handle that goes through the head has a slight trapezoid profile and the circular wedge device is 'centered' more on the high side of the trapezoid. I can't tell if the slight trapezoid and the placement of the wedge device are on purpose or accidental as again, the manufacturing is fairly rough and crude (tangs off-center on handle, holes through tangs are way to opposite sides off the center line). And while the wedge device looks like it would come out the first time you use the hammer it appears to be completely solid. I'm going to forward those pictures to Lewis and see what he has to say about it just for curiosity's sake (but we won't be doing this).

Zander

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 30, 2007 - 10:09pm PT
Hey Joe,
Any chance these rascals are going to be ready by March? I've just been informed I'm going to need a hammer by April 15th. I'd rather buy one of these than anything else. So how is the project going?
Zander
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2007 - 10:45pm PT
Haven't talked to Theron lately to see where we're at with the handles, but I suspect we're now at the point where I'm going to have to take mine apart and send just the handle in order to get any movement again.
Ihateplastic

Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
Feb 27, 2008 - 01:40am PT
I almost hate to ask, but is this a dead issue? Does it still have ANY momentum?

Related thread I just started:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=546178
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Feb 27, 2008 - 02:31am PT
Screw the handle, I can handle the handle myself.

Just get it done.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2008 - 03:48am PT
No, we're still just stalled out on the handles and no dirt, it'll be whole hammers. Theron - where are we at with the handle? Should I disassemble my hammer and send it to Seymour?
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Feb 27, 2008 - 04:44am PT
IF you are determined to screw with the handles I wonder if you have any appreciation of grain runout, what can happen as a result of grain runout, and how to avoid those problems.

If you plan on modifying a bunch of stock handle blanks, prepare to order about then times what you need and send back the ones that don't meet the ideal.

I'd like to bang at least a couple things with one of these wonder hammers before I die, then the hammer will go to Stegg or Corbett, or maybe Noffsinger. Stegg might lose it, Corbett probably won't apreciate it enough, but Noffsinger actually aid climbs as well as hand drills on free climbs so the stupid thing will have a happy home or at least the chance of one, if you get em done in time.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 27, 2008 - 05:37am PT
Theron is growing trees inside little steel tubes, to keep the grain straight. His High Sodium lamps are driving the local cops crazy.

8-)
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Feb 27, 2008 - 02:05pm PT
Where’s my A5 hammer? Joseph, don’t forget that you promised me that you’d drive out to the mid-west to get it if they didn’t send it back! ;)

I’m lagging on the beak end of things… we’re really close and I just need to bash up the latest (and hopefully final) prototype to make sure it’s the one. Purgatory later today... or tomorrow.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Feb 27, 2008 - 02:11pm PT
Well Tom, I really hope he has some sort of torque preventer cause trees twist in the wind, and you might not want twisted grain!!

Plus you'll have to air dry the wood for a number of years before milling, so, allowing 30 years for the wood to grow, and ten for aging, I guess I'll never see a hammer, and most of you will be in your 90's before you can hit anything with one.

That's probably when the heads will be done anyway, hehehe.

Meanwhile I'll continue to have people make fun of my 15 dollar cassini hammer.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2008 - 04:10pm PT
Minerals, I meant that too. I will personally go get it if I have to in the end - we aren't at all to such a point yet.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Feb 27, 2008 - 04:39pm PT
Interesting thread, makes me regret having not gotten an A5 hammer when I had the chance.

I'm curious if anyone has considered just getting some blacksmith hammers and recontouring the "beak" For a relatively small run you'd be dollars ahead, just get a good knifemaking belt sander with some 36gr belts and have at it.




Oughta find something close.
http://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/Templates/cart_templates/cart_browse.php?theLocation=/Resources/Products/Hammers
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2008 - 05:20pm PT
Paul, I think if you had availed yourself of the chance you'd know why we're after that exact specific hammer. My apologies for all the delay - we just need to pin the damn handle down - every thing else is doable at this point.
Moof

Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
Feb 27, 2008 - 06:06pm PT
Healyje,

When the time comes I'll volunteer as extra manual labor. I think I was still in that other state when I signed onto the wish list 3 years back.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 11, 2008 - 10:10pm PT
Someone mentioned this thread, so I thought I'd revive it.

In doing so, I thought it might help to provide information about how not to design things. The following is "The Featherstone-Kite Openwork Basket-Weave Mark Two Gentleman's Flying Machine", drawn and built by the great Rowland Emett.

A working model (well, it doesn't actually fly) is at the Ontario Science Centre:

Emmet was a fascinating man, who might have taught all the designers here a trick or two. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowland_Emett
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
Well, after much dithering and difficulty I beheaded my A5 hammer today in order to get the project back on track. Lewis McNeal at the handle company needs just the handle and given Mineral's is pretty dear to him we had Lewis send his back and mine got decapitated. Hopefully it hasn't died in vain as I've gotten pretty attached to it as well...

couchmaster

climber
Aug 16, 2008 - 10:04pm PT
Talk about takin' one for the team Joseph! wow!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2008 - 06:30pm PT
Thanks to 'Brian in SLC' who accidentally connected with Conrad Anker's admin Pamela Hainsworth at OR last month and sparked her remembering they had stashed some A5-related boxes in storage which turned out to harbor a bunch of handles and a folder of info on the A5 Hammer. Among the gems was an original 1996 O.P. Link invoice for the handles! So between sending my decapitated handle and a copy of the original invoice we appear to finally be on the road to clearing the whole handle roadblock and will soon be able to get back on track with the project.


deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Sep 3, 2008 - 06:36pm PT
yep, I sent all that stuff to Bozeman perhaps in 2001 or so.

How's it looking with Ajax Forge?

Don't forget that there is a lot of machining and finishing and heat treatment of the hammer heads after the forging process, you will need a good shop space to do the work.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2008 - 07:31pm PT
Hi John!

Theron is on it and he has a shop where he's also been doing the Beaks with Bryan. He's not committing to doing the finish work himself, but he is lining up a heat treating resource and we'll just have to sort out what gets done where. I'm sure figuring out drilling the funk hole will be the next big challenge. At least this bottleneck will be out of the way. The Ajax guys can spin up the heads anytime.

Hey, how about posting up a new thread on life in Tasmania - would love to hear how it's all been going so far.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2008 - 11:52pm PT
Thank you Conrad and Pamela! Hot damn if now we aren't finally getting some traction. This box came today from Manhattan, MT; that, and Lewis McNeal of the Seymour Mfg. / O.P. Link Handle back in Tennessee has both my A5 handle and one of John's original invoices and claims he will track the handles or the design spec down soon.

Time to call Ajax and get a requote on the heads...

T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Sep 29, 2008 - 11:56pm PT
JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Zander

Trad climber
Berkeley
Sep 29, 2008 - 11:57pm PT
Hey, Do you need any money up front yet?
Zander
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Sep 30, 2008 - 12:07am PT
There's my old red hammer notebook! I'm glad it has been found, because that's the only copy of the many aspects of hammer production.

Let me know if you have any questions about any of the info therein. In particular, there are some specific aspects to the heat treat you will want to specify carefully. I'd have to look at the notes again, so let me know when you are about to place an order for forgings and I'll hopefully point you to the correct notes regarding the spec (there was quite a bit of trial and error back in 1986 to get the hammers correct--the first batch of 30 heads had to be redone).

cheers
John Middendorf
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2008 - 12:13am PT
Not quite yet Zander, but probably to put in the head forging order we might. Thanks so much for asking.

Theron, I'll give you a shout in the next day or two.

Thank god, I now have a shot at putting my A5 back together now...
grover

Social climber
Canada
Sep 30, 2008 - 12:13am PT
"Thank you Conrad and Pamela! Hot damn if now we aren't finally getting some traction."

Traction is the word of the day.

Nice score with the handles!

T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Sep 30, 2008 - 12:14am PT
I don't foresee a problem with Ajax forging the heads. They have the die and the capability. The price of steel has risen over the last year so I expect the bid to be higher. The Tabs that protect the handle and attach the handle to the head are no problem for me to fabricate. The drilling of the biner hole is also not an issue. A power shear for the tabs and a mill for the hole.

I will probably just build a fixture to hold the head while I face the striking surface and drill the biner hole.

Edit: I have a Heat Treater I deal with who can do this.
WBraun

climber
Sep 30, 2008 - 12:18am PT
But you have no head.

That's 99% of the hammer.

Scotty Vincik made his own head and handle in a couple of days.

You guys are like the govt. ---- takes forever .....

Years forever, and all you got is a handle so far.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Sep 30, 2008 - 12:23am PT
Yeah, but now we have a handle on the situation. That's more than you can say about the government!

Besides, perfection takes time.
WBraun

climber
Sep 30, 2008 - 12:27am PT
Hahahaha good one.

Thanks for following the flow ......

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2008 - 12:42am PT
John, I am just blown away looking at the contents of your notebook on the hammers. Almost speechless really. Daunting footsteps by any measure, on or off the rock.

So, Theron and I will be sorting through all this material, copying and digitizing what we and the vendors need, and then how about when we're done we send it all back to you (and yes, we'll post a few too if that's alright with John). Or, if you don't want it back, then my suggestion would be that it go to Ken Yeager and the Yosemite Climbing Museum with one of the hammers so the notebook could be archived and available in case others wanted to resuscitate your hammer sometime on down the road.

P.S. Werner, I know you're just yanking our funkness - lot's of other paths would have led to 'a' hammer, but not to John's hammer. In the end, the long delay is entirely my fault...
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Sep 30, 2008 - 12:59am PT
SO, what is the proposed date for actually FINISHING this Molinjar worthy creation?

I'd STILL like to wield one before I die. IF only to bash Lois on the big toe.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2008 - 01:09am PT
Dirt, now don't go and unreasonably incent us or anything.

Once Lewis gets back to us and let's us know the handles are a go from his end, then Theron and I can put together a game plan and finances for seeing these babies through to actual cudgels.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Sep 30, 2008 - 01:36am PT
HEHE, I guess the thought of giving Lois a whack on the toe with one DOES carry a certain charm about it, n'est-ce pas?
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Sep 30, 2008 - 02:22am PT
Hi Joe-

I really don't want the notebook back, but I'd be happy to find room for some of the digital copies on my computer. Otherwise, I'd toss it out. If you think that notebook was interesting, you probably would have liked the 5 boxes (yep, five big shipping boxes--I was a major packrat) of old design notes I tossed out earlier this year. Though in the recent case I scanned a bunch of them with a Fujitsu ScanSnap as some of the ideas may still be useful to climbers if I ever get back on a mill and and/or a sewing machine!

cheers
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2008 - 03:00am PT
John, I'll get them archived on to a DVD as time allows, but if you really don't want them back then they'll go to Ken Yeager, Marty Karabin, or Stephane Pennequin - to one of the collections where I know they'll have a shot at long term survival.

Hope all is well down under. I suspect Theron and I will have some questions for you once we get rolling...
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Sep 30, 2008 - 03:41am PT
somehow I don't really think they'd be worthy of keeping, but it's nice of you to say so.

Good luck on the final steps. Here's the deal in a nutshell: when you get the forgings from the forger, you want them in as soft as state as possible. Sometimes forgers will do a heat treat as part of the process, which is bad in this case due to the finishing work that still needs to be done. It might be because its easier for them to quench and do a quick anneal rather than.... ? I can't remember all the details about the forger's heat treat and the specified anneal right now. Because you have to mill the front face, grind off the taper on the sides, and most importantly, drill the carabiner hole with a 9/16" drill (methinks). If you have anything but the softest anneal from the heat treater, you will have a much harder time doing this work.

After all the machine work, of course, you'll have to get them heat treated properly. Have you decided if you are going with 4130 or 4340? The first A5 hammer batch (red handles) was 4130, the second (yellow handles) was 4340. Both have pluses and minuses in terms of a finished product, but to be safe, the more expensive 4340 is probably better because you have more latitude for a good hard heat treatment in the end.

cheers
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2008 - 05:09am PT
John, yeah, that notebook is a chunk of history.

I did notice you seemed to favor the 4340, but that's all a bit out of my league and I'll leave that up to Theron who I'm sure will have a question or two for you as well.

Interesting drawings of the various clamping jigs...
tooth

Mountain climber
B.C.
Sep 30, 2008 - 07:24am PT
Interesting.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Oct 1, 2008 - 01:59am PT
I agree tenatively on the 4340 for having a larger usable (for our application) heat treat range. I have been using and stuying 4130 and 4140 most recently for Mineral's beak project. Good stuff, but expensive.

Thanks for the reminder on specing out the full annealing after forging. That could play havoc with the secondary machining processes.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Oct 1, 2008 - 11:52am PT
deuce--

did you really throw away all those notebooks and materials? that would be a shame. if you still have stuff left over from the A5 period, you should consider donating to one of a number of places. I don't know how much safe space Ken has for paper storage, but I would think that at least DVDs would be nice to have there, if he wants them.

The Henry Hall Library at the AAC has a large archival collection with a little bit of decent storage.

The Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley is the best public archival library in the western US and has all the Sierra Club Archives as well as the Norman Clyde papers and is looking to build a collection of California and western-US related designers and manufacturers.

Donations would be tax-deductible. If you have stuff, you can email me with the details and I can set up the contacts.


tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Feb 17, 2009 - 02:17pm PT
Bump for status
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
I received the box of John's original material and documentation from Conrad's admin Pamela Hainsworth back at the end of September and then a new big software project and political hell took over my life until a couple of weeks ago. On recently going through all his old invoices I discovered we'd been working with the wrong handle plant in trying to locate the original handles. I now have a call into the correct handle plant's manager.

Ended up barking up the wrong tree because these companies had been sold and consolidated with others and without the original invoices neither I nor the [wrong] plant manager could track the handles down or realize it was entirely the wrong plant. At least now we have a bunch of the original handles and can just send them one which is a big help.

I also need to ship all this stuff down to Theron as well...
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Feb 17, 2009 - 08:00pm PT
Wow! And to think that my hammer sat in the middle of nowhere for no reason for half an eon…

What a freakin’ joke. No wonder this hammer project has gone nowhere and will go nowhere…
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2009 - 08:18pm PT
Well, Minerals, sorry you feel that way. My hammer got taken apart to replace yours. Neither Lewis, the plant manager, myself, or Theron had the slightest idea we were talking to the wrong plant until we got the original invoices of John's. Those invoices got shuffled around and buried for several years as A5 went to Conrad, then to Northface, and finally Black Diamond. As I said, I only got them last fall right at the start of a big work project.

Yeah, it's going real slow, but it's still going. I'm the sole breadwinner around here and trying to run a business of my own (and climb occasionally, monitor Peregrines, etc.) - again, sorry to bum you out with the glacial pace of things.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Feb 17, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
Humans................................
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
Must just be what happens when a guy who hasn't even done a wall is more interested in these hammers than those who have...
Chicken Skinner

Trad climber
Yosemite
Feb 17, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
This should inspire you.


John's hammer used on the Trango Tower and many of his Yosemite ascents. It is still very usable.

Ken
DJMac

Big Wall climber
Bonedale, CO
Feb 18, 2009 - 06:53pm PT
This has been a very interesting read ... thanks to you all.

I still have my original red handle (very used), and the brand new signed yellow handle John gave me years ago (in mint condition).

They are true works of art!

Best of luck to you on the hammer project ... if you can top the A5 hammer ... kudos to you!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2009 - 04:35am PT
DJMac: "Best of luck to you on the hammer project ... if you can top the A5 hammer ... kudos to you!"

DJ, we're just trying to duplicate it, I don't think there is any topping it...!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2009 - 04:55am PT
John,

Turns out they closed the Indiana O.P. Link plant five years ago and that was the source of all the confusion even with a copy of the original purchase order. I'm shipping Lewis McNeal, the TN plant manager, one of the original handles we got from Conrad and he said he will just reproduce them exactly so we are finally covered on the handle front. All the delays have been a drag, but on the other hand, steel prices are down from their previously astronomical levels which will know work in our favor as we have Ajax requote the heads.

I'll be shipping all your remarkable documentation out to Theron and I'm sure he'll have a bunch of questions for you around working with Ajax and the heat treating as on reading the whole saga it sounds as though you went round a few times with both vendors to get exactly what you wanted. I'm guessing he'll also have questions about the tooling / jigs for finishing the hammer heads.

I have a couple of questions for you relative to installing the handles. The eye of the handles are pretty tight relative to attempting to slide the head on with the tangs. Was there further sanding/grinding down of the handle eye to accomodate the tangs or is it just a brute force compression that is taking place in the photo below with no further modifications to the factory handle?

Also, I note from a piece of instructions (with art on the back that I believe shipped with each hammer) it appears you didn't install the wedges at the time of assembly, but rather included them for the customer to install after a short break-in period - is that correct? I saw that Norman link had sent some round wedges for you to try; were those cone or ring wedges and did your try them.

And last, the tang rivet. I know next to nothing about metal, that's Theron's provence, but what was that made from? It almost seems to just be from a common nail, is that the case or is it something far more specific (I'm guessing it is)?

Seems like we're finally on the verge and it sounds like Theron is cranking on the beaks and Ed Leeper's cam hooks - he had a batch of both going out for heat treating today. He's becoming a real retro-shop. What a resource for us all.

Hope all is well down Tasman-way.

Joseph

P.S. The young baby across the street from us is named 'Hunter Tasman' and was born there while his parents were working down under for two years.

deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Mar 27, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
The tangs were stainless steel strips bent in a vice, then drilled in place, and the rivet was exactly as you suspected, a 16 penny nail, cut then peened. It's purpose is just to hold the tangs in place, so the softness of the 16 penny nails is perfect for peening. It takes a bit of practice to know where to cut off the nails--I recall about 3/16" on either side, then the peening is a bit of craftsmanship.

Regarding the wood handle --no modifications were made (they were custom designed for my hammers)--you want a tight fit, but of course too tight and the wood might get too compressed and split at the connection. Put the tangs and the handle in at the same time, and hammer it in. Then you need a little tool to slightly adjust the angle of the tangs prior to drilling the hole for the 16 penny nail mentioned above.

I found that my hammers didn't really need the wedges, but I included them as people who had previously used the original Chouinard Hammers (which had them) thought they were important, so I included them for people to put in themselves if they wanted to.

Was that all the questions?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
Not by a long shot - Theron and I will undoubtably have lots more as we go along, especially about the forging, heat treating, and jigs/tooling. Those handle questions just came up last night as I pondered reassembling my own hammer onto one of the new handles from Conrad.

And your answer is what I suspected looking at the picture above - that you spec'd them perfectly so you could just compress them with tangs in place. But it gives one pause and some doubt that that's really the case sitting there trying to adjust the head up and down on the handle to find the right spot where you can get the head, tangs, and handle all going together at once.

I think it was must have been a bit of work/genius sorting out the correct eye dimensions once you understand what's going on and necessarily involved with the assembly process in order to get a really robust hammer with some longevity about it. I also now better understand why you kept stressing to Norman you wanted the highest quality handle he could possibly produce. Sounds as though he ended up a good partner and like he was genuinely interested in your adventures and happy to be a part of them.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Mar 27, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
Sweet, progress!

I've heard soaking the head of hammer handles in linseed oil helps in the assy process. Now if I can just remember where I came across that...

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2009 - 07:57pm PT
About halfway through scanning all the docs; here's a couple of tidbits. The completed scans will probably go up on four seperate threads for:

OSHP: A5 Hammer Workbook
OSHP: A5 Hammer Design-Assembly Notes
OSHP: A5 Hammer Ajax Forging
OSHP: A5 Hammer Phoenix Heat Treating

[John, I'll be sending you the original hi-res scans on a DVD...]



deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Mar 29, 2009 - 08:06pm PT
That yellow sheet is a Walt Shipley original. Don't put in on ebay! Just kidding.

Walt prompted us to go with the webbing inserted into the handle a la the sketches you see here. I personally preferred the thin cord, tied in a loop and drilled right through the base of the hammer (much easier to clip). But the webbing with a sewn clip in loop is much cooler.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
My disassembled hammer two pages back in the tread was just drilled through the
base and used cord. Are you saying you later switched to this way Walt describes on that sheet...?
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Mar 29, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
yep.

About half of the first batch of 500 (orange handle hammers) were drilled and set up with cord, then the rest were threaded with webbing, starting in 1989 when Walt came to visit our shop. For reference, I sold my first hammers in 1987, I believe.

The webbing method is way time consuming to produce. Not noted on Walt's drawing is that you need to file down the threads on the screw, otherwise it can cut the webbing over time.

I recommend the simpler, drill a hole and put 5mm cord through the handle method!
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Mar 29, 2009 - 09:19pm PT
Whoa, whoa, whoa. That top print shows the biner clip in hole 90 degrees and quite a bit farther in than the hammer I have. Was it your original intent to do it as you have it drawn? What made you change your mind? Drilling the hole was harder? The biner hole had to be larger because of the larger cross section of the hammer you were drilling through?

Been really busy making cam hooks. Just about ready to do a production run of Minerals Tomahawks (fancy new style beaks).

Leeper's been a real kick to talk to. I have to budget an hour when I call him up. He had a really scientific approach to making the hooks.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2009 - 09:21pm PT
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Mar 29, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
I love the art work!!!! Way too funny!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2009 - 09:30pm PT



deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Mar 29, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
Whoa, whoa, please don't embarrass me too much with those old notes!

yes, the top to bottom hole came about after the initial design. I was hoping to have the carabiner hole included in the forge process, that was not possible, so it required driling. Drilling top to bottom proved far easier, and had the same functionality.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
Hey, don't worry, your hammer is pure genius - seeing how you arrived at it is part of the fun - I'd personally hate to think that it all just came to you in a single sitting.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Mar 30, 2009 - 02:37am PT
Well, thanks Joe. (but I was referring to that silly sketch on the blueprint, some dumb ad idea--marketing was never my strong point).
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2009 - 06:11am PT
Love your note pad paper...

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2009 - 07:44am PT
And what's not to love about the sticker from the back of the Ajax Forging file folder...

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
Finshed Scanning - 158 Documents / 248mb

Theron, I'll be getting all these documents and the handles off to you in the a.m. The documents in the folders are now all in chronological order and you'll probably want to keep them that way to follow along with the process / saga...

DVDs will go out to John, Theron, Stephane, Marty, and Ken as well.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Mar 30, 2009 - 06:57pm PT
So, like is this actually going to HAPPEN soon then?

I'll still take my original order of two, cause I ahve to hammerin fools for partners that I could give em to. One actually needs a ahmmer cause his own old beloved got mis-borrowed by a friend of ours whose aah, shall we say, illegal substance control challenged wife had the boy thrown in jail for an undetermined period, and the hammer is at her mercy, which is non-exixtent when she gets on a binge, and now I've said too much but it would be REALLY good for him and the poor kid if they got away from that gal when the dust settles.

Anyway, the big questions:

WHEN will you be able to send any?


HOW MUCH will they cost?

Can I have two right away, cause after all, I may be about to hit a good spell if this procedure to internalize my drain works, and I will want to bang one last something before handing off the hammers to Steg and Noffsinger-- two more dedicated nailers (although the ARE free climbers, I'll admit it) dedicated to hand drilling for bolts and using good pins that is, with the idea that only the needed bolts should be placed.

Good luck with the final stages of the project, it was a noble thing to tackle, glad you did it, and please get it done before I die and never get to hold one.


thanks,

Curt
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2009 - 02:17am PT
Final directory structure for the DVD...

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2009 - 03:03am PT
Well Dirt, we're getting back on it. The process is requote the heads, get a final price on the handles, and then Theron and I will have to sort out the costs on drilling, finishing, and heat treating the head. Once that's done we'll have some idea of the cost. Then all we have to do is find the front money for said handles and heads to get going. After that we just annoy the sh#t out of John for the duration of the project.

Wish I could tell exactly when, but we are about to start launching on it all. Not much I can I say at this point but reiterate what everyone's been telling you - hang in there dude!
Moof

Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
Mar 31, 2009 - 10:04am PT
Joseph,

When you think you're getting close I'd be happy to pay for mine up front, sort of like the B.A.T. shirts.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2009 - 04:35pm PT
John's A5 hammer documentation / design notes are now up on google at:

http://picasaweb.google.com/extcontact/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2009 - 02:45am PT
I boxed up the handles and A5 Hammer documentation (see the link above for online scans) from Conrad and Pamela to send to Theron, but couldn't find his address. The box was all taped up and ready to go so I call him up for his address and while I'm talking to him I realize I have in my hand one of the handles with my disassembled A5 head slid on it. Oops, it's supposed to be in the box so Theron has a reference unit - can't imagine how I failed to get a random handle and all my disassembled parts in the box.

Letting go is never easy...




Four handles are also on their way to Lewis McNeal at Seymour Handle (TN) who bought the O.P. Link Handle company (IN) five years ago. That should give them a good sense of the handle-to-handle variation and we can get that show on the road as well.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2009 - 04:11am PT
Theron, did you get that stuff yet...?
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Apr 14, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
This one?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
Working on it Fatty. Been a long process, but info, handles, and steel prices are finally all coming together...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
I sent Lewis McNeal at the handle company four handles out of the box above for him to match or measure at the same time I sent Theron the box above - four should give him a good lock on the measurements minus whatever the affects of siting in a box for 12-13 years might be. Just got this back from him...

--------------------------------------------------


Hello Joseph,

I have received the handles and in process of matching them to any current models.

Best regards,
Lewis McNeal
Plant Manager/Vice President
Seymour Manufacturing
Link Handle Division
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Apr 14, 2009 - 04:23pm PT
Sheep meats?

yummy lambykins for to eat!?!?!?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
I'm guessing Conrad isn't a vegatarian...
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Apr 14, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
Lamb tastes good!! Especially on a kabob.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Apr 14, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
Mmm kabobs!

Glad to hear the project is progressing.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Apr 18, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
I smell smoke!

Did someone start a fire in here?





Glad to see that things are moving forward again! Keep on it, Joseph!!!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2009 - 08:47pm PT
Thanks Bryan - we're back on it, need to get with Theron this week and see where we're at as far as re-approaching the forge. I'm guessing Theron wants some time to look over all the heat treating docs and maybe chat with John about that side of things. But we're getting pretty damn close to launching on it and when we do we'll probably sort out how folks can reserve a hammer. Stay tuned...
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Apr 18, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
Cool!

I will be happy to be proven wrong!
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Apr 18, 2009 - 09:05pm PT

That's the upside-down man, nailing like any good wall climber should!!! Or placing a head... even better!
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
May 1, 2009 - 04:00pm PT
I am currently in the quote process with Ajax. I am looking in to getting the heads in the annealed state rather than semi hard like John was. Going with 4340 steel rather than 4140 also. This might partially solve the drilling problems. More later.
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 1, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
is there any chance that this will happen before summer?

if so, i want one. my a5 is long gone, so i picked up a bd last fall, and it's ok, but i preferred my old one.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
May 1, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
Nope. 8-10 week lead time on the heads from forging. Machining time, heat treat, and assembly all take time too. Moving forward but early fall at the best is my estimate. Batch of 250. Hoping for fall wall season.
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 1, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
better late than never. tx for the estimate.
mucci

Trad climber
sf ca
May 2, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
I'm in for one tell me when and where to send the moolah!
thanks for bringing these gems back into production!
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
May 4, 2009 - 02:24pm PT


marty(r)

climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
May 4, 2009 - 02:46pm PT
Let's hear it for open-source transparency!
Gene

climber
May 4, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
Who has the wait list? How can I verify I'm on it?

Thanks.

gm

Edit: I checked out the Moses' hangers and cam hooks at the Mtn. Shop Saturday. They look VERY well made.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
May 4, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
Thanks Gene.

Not ready for deposits just yet I think.

A few items need to be ironed out (pun intended).

Tangs
Nails
Handles
Machining time
Heat Treat
Assembly
Caz

Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA.
May 5, 2009 - 04:30am PT
Hey Healyje and T Moses Thanks for taking on this huge project! It seems like you've put so much into it. Great work so far.

I'd love to buy one of these when they are ready.



T Moses- All your new stuff looks great. I got my hands on a few of your hangers and can't wait to get a few of the tomahawks! I'll be using your hangers in a couple of weeks...

KEEP IT UP GUYS!!!!


ZAc
RDB

Social climber
way out there
May 5, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
Nice project. Put me down for one.
couchmaster

climber
May 5, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
If this is the official list, I'll take 2.

Theron, check your emails. I'll donate the screws that hold the webbing onto the handle.

I can pull it out of my hammer tonight and look, but does anyone know exactly what it was? In the data Joseph shared with me John calls it out as an 8 x 1-1/4. Assume its a standard Phillips Oval sheetmetal screw but want to verify as I want to duplicate the original right on the money.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
May 5, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
I was in for two before and if I LIVE til fall, I'm still in for two, cause I got two friends who would love one and theey'll carry on the climbing on the stuff I liked best, and there is aid and hammering in that place, as well as the rule of hand drilling.

So even if I never get to swing one for the intended purpose, someone will do it for me.

So I'm STILL in for two.

Now, how about getting them done, and while you are at it, cook up a cure for cancer, cause it seems this hammer is taking about as long as a cure, LOL.
couchmaster

climber
May 5, 2009 - 09:21pm PT
[confused look here] I just looked at the brand new A5 hammer I'd gotten from Marty, and it looks like there was a hole drilled and a piece of webbing sewn through it. No Screw. Interesting. It appears that John changed the design later. I see pictures of both in this thread alone. [/confused look here]

Theron, if you want screws, I have 8 x 1-1/4 Phillips Oval Sheetmetal Screws and can send them immediately. You can email me at billcoe at gmail dot com.

What do all of you folks think? Screws or No Screws.

Regards

Bill

No screws



Steve Grossmans appears to have a screw (under the tape):-)

Johns drawing


Bill Forrest did it both ways on his Wall Hammers as well but I'm too lame to find pictures of it so you'll have to believe me:-) .
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
May 5, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
You can either:
Go with simple: the 5mm cord drilled though the bottom of the handle works great, makes for an easy clip in loop, and only disadvantage is if you use a holster--anyone still use hammer holsters? But even then it's not too bad.

OR
Go with an addtional 10-15 minutes labor, drill the bottom of the hammer handle for inserting the webbing, now you require a webbing tie in, webbing is probably about the same cost, but now you are looking at having to have a sewing machine on hand to sew the required loop. Joe posted Walt's sketch on how to make the webbing version with screw. It's similar to how Chouinard Yo hammers were done. Oh, yeah, I almost forgot--the biggest pain is that you have to grind down some of the threads on the screw to make sure the threads don't eventually cut the webbing.

I'd say keep it simple.

Theron, I might add that you might find the work required for hammer finishing will surprise you, though I mentioned this way back when this was all a little twinkle in Joe's and other's eyes... But you will be 'da man' when it comes to figuring out efficient ways to accomplish the machine work required, I'm sure. Drilling the biner hole is probably the most hellish part of the job.

I'm looking forward to hearing how it goes.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
May 5, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
looks like Steve G's webbing clip in blew out. Another reason to go for the easy to check, easy to replace 5mm cord drilled through the bottom of the handle.

Or, just ship with no lanyard and let the users do their own. Just like Linux-you gotta be somewhat capable...
couchmaster

climber
May 5, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
Thanks John. No screws then would be both easier and probably stronger.

ahhhh, here we go - for posterity more than anything else.

Forrest Hammers on left:

The shorter one has been with me for many years, but it's on perma-loan to Jim opdycke now. I like the longer one, but it's only right as he borrowed it to take it to the valley once and kept it for like 7 years: probably long enough to establish a bond for sure LOL! :-)


Hmmm
I need 2 hammers why? Sorry, ammended statement. If there are any left, I'll take one or 2.

jbar

Social climber
urasymptote
May 5, 2009 - 10:50pm PT
If you're starting a list please put me in. You need some Deuce5 representation on the east coast. I'll take two if you can spare them. Just let me know when and where to pay you. If you're looking to do more with them let me know and I'll ask around.
slobmonster

Trad climber
berkeley, ca
May 5, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
please add me to the list.

any estimate of final cost on these puppies?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 5, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
here was the list 1/11/06 which was a time ago...
2 healyje
1 nature
1 John F. Kerry
1 Knoxville
5 macgyver
2 Dingus Milktoast
1 Mort
2 sbwyliedog
2 yo
1 Mungeclimber (?)
2 JMC
1 dirtineye
1 bulgingpuke
1 T2
3 JuanDeFuca
1 crotch
1 phillip mike revis
1 T Moses
1 Irisharehere
1 mark miller
1 DavisGunkie
1 Mtnfreak
1 Zander
1 jack herer
1 foster
1 Moof
1 Manjusri
1 alasdair
3 OW
1 Festus
1 Brian in SLC
1 Rhodo-Router
1 steelmnkey
1 Ed Hartouni
2 thedus
1 squeaks
1 YetAnotherDave
1 dmitry
1 lazide
1 malaka
2 kev
4 rja
2 mynameismud
1 locker
1 GOclimb
1 grover
1 dave
1 Andy KP

probably more now, or different... I still would like one...
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
May 6, 2009 - 12:54am PT
Couch, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Thanks for the offer of the screws. I wanted to look at the file and ask John about it (he chimed in here already with the answers to unasked questions). I have heard a couple different stories on the screws versus holes. I like the idea of keeping it simple (hole) for production. That also leaves it open for the more adventurous/adept to do what they want (screw).

Thanks to Ed for keeping it straight. I nominate Ed to track orders! Do I hear a second to the motion?

Johh, I'm bouncing a few ideas around in my head for fixturing. Your sketches are thought provoking. Thanks for keeping excellent records. I agree that the finishing is really where it is at. I've got a couple of tricks up my sleeve. ;) The selection of machinery available to me is a little more varied than you had.

For instance: The tangs will be blanked (cut to size) on the shear here. Then the holes punched on the strippit 15 ton punch press. After punching they will be bent on the press brake. That should save a little time. 10,000 square feet of machinery is fun stuff.
Melvin Mills

Trad climber
Albuquerque NM
May 6, 2009 - 09:02am PT
Many thanks to everyone for their work on this. Just sent Ed my request.
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
May 6, 2009 - 10:40am PT
Please add me to the list for one. Can't let an opportunity like this go by!

Thanks to everyone for making this happen.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
May 6, 2009 - 10:58am PT
Put me down for one.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
May 11, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
Tangs:

304 Stainless Steel 0.090" x 48" x 120" 151 Lbs at 1.45 per pound = 218.95/500 = 0.41
Blanking on Shear = 0.40
Punching of Hole = 0.20
Bending of Angle = 0.30
Deburr = 0.15
Total = 1.46 per tang

The price of stainless fluctuates so it might change by a few cents or so.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
Lewis McNeal, the plant Manager of Seymour Manufacturing's Link Handle Division in Sequatchie TN, has just let us know the pattern for the hammer's handle has been found at long last and will be sending us some samples directly.

I have a question for John relative to the grip material. The two A5's I recently bought - one for me to replace the one I took apart for the project, and the other for Tarbuster's auction - both had a very thick, bright, and solid paint on the handles (one yellow, one red) with something akin to sawdust in them. This coating is seems a bit more slick than the grip on my old hammer and on the O.P. Link handles in the box from Conrad. Did O.P. Link source both coatings and changed, or was the thicker one something you came up with originally and then went with the factory grip?
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
May 14, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
Hi Joe-

I did two batches of hammers, one with yellow handles, and one with red handles. The second batch had hammer heads that had serial numbers near the A5 logo. The first batch of 500 had no serial numbers.

The grip was a grip that OP Link offered at minimal cost. It should be the same as on the replacement handles I sent to ACE some time back. I think it's a good feature, but plain old hickory might also be a nice option for this batch.

cheers
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
John, thanks - the hammer I have now has a pretty slick and very thick yellow paint on it with what I interpret to be small woodchips interspered in it. Very different from what the ACE handles had on them which was a very light coat with grit more like sand in it. No idea about the difference? I'll post up some pics of this hammer in a bit.

I like the gritty light grip coat. They have a light blue color available which I was thinking might be good for distinguishing this hammer from the A5's you produced. Also, do you think Ajax would be able to change the logo on the existing mold to 'D5' or would that require a new mold?

[ Edit: Just got off the phone with Theron, and he said he already talked to Ajax about redoing the logo and they recommended against it relative to the life of the mold - no biggie, we'll deal with it... ]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2009 - 12:27am PT
Just a note that Theron sent me a couple of handles out of the ACE box and I was wrong - it's the same coating as the hammer I just bought. I believe what's thrown me off is this hammer is barely used and was oiled or lacquered in some way that made it seem quite different when in reality it isn't.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2009 - 12:37am PT
A note to all the great folks on Ed's thread who've expressed interest in buying a hammer: we also want to know what the price will be and we're working on determining that as quickly as we can.

I can assure you however, that they will be in an affordable range. Bottom line - if we can't make it work out reasonably both for us producing them and you buying them (and with donations the Alex Lowe Charitable Foundation's Khumbu Climbing School as well), then we won't bother at all. We don't forsee that being the case at this time, but Theron still has to finish working through the costs associated with head finishing and assembly. We will post pricing as soon as we can and we are glad to see the project moving forward again.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
May 20, 2009 - 01:31am PT
Quotes taken from the following thread…

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=853495&tn=60

…and posted to this thread for consistency and Ed’s approval (Ed always wins… because Ed rules).



“by the way, what are these hammers for?”

Why, for assaulting power drillers, of course!



“Anyway, the main difference between this hammer that Theron is about to produce and all the other hammers on the market (and in fact, all climbing hammers since the Yo Hammer and the Forest Big Wall hammer), is that this hammer is forged, the others are not.

Forging changes the grain structure of the metal, aligning the grains in the direction of "flow". This results in a much better hit/rebound effect.

There's a reason why all professional framing hammers are forged. Hammer with a forged hammer and your elbows will be in better shape after a long day of nailing.”



Sir Deucey/John,

After working for you in Flagstaff, you know that I have a hell of a lot of respect for you, your outstanding climbing accomplishments, and the creations that you have envisioned. The signed A5 hammer that you gave to me is way freakin’ cool and I am very happy that it did not recently disappear into the abyss of the Midwest. Thank you!

I would like, however, to comment on the above quotes.

Foliation in granitic rock is most intriguing to me… but I still haven’t been able to “feel” the advantage of the “foliaton” of a forged hammer head versus a cast or milled head in a climbing environment. What good is forged if the head/handle attachment feels like it is welded? I have found the A5 hammer to have a very harsh feel, especially when hand drilling. As expressed earlier in this thread, I wish that there were more interest in creating an evolved version of the A5 hammer. But apparently “classic” is what matters most to prospective buyers.

Although the Forshee/McDevitt hammer has a weaker overall connection between the head and handle (which should be improved), I have found it to be the most comfortable drilling/nailing hammer that I’ve ever used - 223 holes last season, 100% by hand and 100% with THE BEST HAND DRILL EVER DESIGNED AND PRODUCED – the Hurricane Hand Drill. My elbows feel great!




I know it’s too late for this rambling… but just wanted to say that I wish that we could continue to evolve, rather than stagnate. Carry on as you will…



Cheers, John. You will always be a bad-ass mentor in my book!
couchmaster

climber
May 20, 2009 - 11:23am PT
The cost to redo the molds would have run into the thousands, that's even if you could capture the feel you want. Would an extra likely cost of @$5,000-$15,000 bucks been worth it? What John says is true, forging generally makes for stronger, tougher metal....all other things being equal.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
Rokjox, at the moment we are inclined to produce hammers with the first generation sling arrangement - webbing with an aluminum descending rings and just cord through a hole in the hammer base (see pic of my disassembled hammer up thread). Fish has expressed an interest in producing the slings which is pretty exciting and we hope to talk more with him more when he's back in town.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2009 - 05:21am PT
Just an update on where we're at on the handle side of things. Theron and I just received sample handles from the manufacturers in TN and on comparing them with old handles from the box of handle Conrad sent we've found some differences that we're now ironing out for a final spec. Here are the differences we've noted back to the manufacturer and also asked John if he wouldn't be so kind as to jump back in with his insights on them. You can compare these to the pic of the assembled A5 that recently was auctioned at Tarbuster's benefit. I personally prefer the red handle, but would like it with the base chamfer of the yellow one.




deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Jun 5, 2009 - 07:33am PT
The blue handles look fine, the "top" view dimensions will be the primary concern, as they will have more of an effect on how tightly the head fits on the handle.

It doesn't look like you need to be concerned for the shorter top section, as I would hammer on each head onto the handle until the tangs were at the right position, then there would generally be a little extra wood on top of the hammer that would need to be cut off with bandsaw (generally 1/4" to 1/2" or so). Worst case you might want to design the tangs a little shorter, but first assemble one to check it out.

Just FYI, when you get the batch, you will see variances within the batch that will be similar to those you are describing among the three batches. It's not a problem--its the nature of how these fine hickory handles are made. The only critical dimensions are those of the top view (the width and breadth of the square part that actually fits into the hammer). You can expect a small percentage in your order from the handle company to be "seconds"--again, that's really no problem and to be expected. I wouldn't quibble over it, as long as it's less than a few percent. Just make sure to specify a min/max on the top view dimensions (again, the part that actually fits into the hammer head) that is reasonable. I did have to re-order a batch of handles once when they were all too small on top and it resulted in a sloppy fit, but that's really the only concern with the variances in dimensions from the factory.

Bottom line is that the variances you are pointing out shouldn't be a problem. Good luck!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2009 - 02:36pm PT
John, good to get your take on things, it's much appreciated...
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Jun 5, 2009 - 03:44pm PT
I like that blue handle best.

Already have the red and yellow...

The blue has less base chamfer, more useable handle area and not as much wasted as the yellow. Still, looks like "enough" chamfer without being too much.

Lookin' great!

Hey, did you see the bent axe style handle on those ACE hammers? Was that style not pursued?

-Brian in SLC
(may have to up my order to two since my current hammer is just about trashed!)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
Two more photos:


WBraun

climber
Jun 5, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
So ....

As the sun sinks in the west once again, you now have handle without a head.

Just yankin your chain as usual ...

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2009 - 06:29pm PT
Werner, Theron is on his way to the Valley to deliver the latest batch of beaks and get a little climbing in. We already have a new quote from Ajax on the heads and on Theron's return he'll be trying to wrap-up running the numbers on the costs of finishing the head and assembling the hammer. Also, it looks like Fish is in on it for the hammer slings. So actually, we're really are getting pretty damn close to finally pulling the trigger on the damn things. I also need to see if we can coax IHatePlastic into joining the fray with his new e-commerce infrastructure to handle the sales transactions.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2009 - 06:19am PT
John, here is the shot of the tops you asked for...

Danielle Winters

Trad climber
Alaska
Jun 6, 2009 - 07:21am PT
Hey there, I have been watching this thread with intrest.I really want one of theses hammers. But one of my first considerations when getting a Hammer with a wood handle is to pick one out with a straight Grain . The three that are in the photo do not look good to me at all . i know getting good wood now days is hard but have you giving consideration to that in your development of this project. ie: the lines in the wood should travel in the same direction as the swing . Hope that explains it some what, wish I could post a photo of what I mean .
Great job so far , keep us updated

Danielle
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Jun 6, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
Why is the pick on the hammer so blunt?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 7, 2009 - 03:22am PT
Minerals, given you and Theron have worked together on the beaks I'm guessing he would be happy to make one with a pick any way you'd like it, but we're not changing the Ajax mold. We're pretty much committed in this inital round to just reproducing the hammer. Who knows after that when we understand the end-to-end process and look at any further demand.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 7, 2009 - 03:30am PT
Danielle,

It's hard to distinguish the saw marks from the grain in the photos given how harsh the POS camera's flash is. I've marked the grain lines on the handles. John would be a better one to comment on it than I, but I believe these are all within the variances he deemed acceptable when he was making them himself.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2009 - 01:22am PT
Education gained, details basically pinned down, and we are expecting a quote on 275 handles in the next week. Onward to Ajax and the forging of the heads...
mcreel

climber
Barcelona, Spain
Jun 10, 2009 - 03:49am PT
bump climbing content
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Jun 19, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
Costs per each Hammer:

Deburr of Forging Flash: 7.00
Milling of Hammer Face: 5.75
Drilling of Carabiner Hole: 6.00
Heat Treating: 1.47
Sandblasting: 1.05
Assembly: 9.50
Anti Corrosion Dip: 0.65
Drilling of Handle for Leash: 0.75
Logo Removal: 2.00
Subtotal: 34.17

Previous Costs:
(2) Stainless Steel Tangs: 2.92
Forging of Hammer Head 16.45
Total: 53.54

Remaining costs:
Leash w/ Ring-Russ?
Handle-Joseph?

Assembly might be a little high but I am not sure how it will work out. Reading John's notes it seems pretty involved so that's how I quoted it.
couchmaster

climber
Jun 19, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
Theron, don't forget to stick some inbound freight in there as well buddy.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Jun 19, 2009 - 10:33pm PT
250 +/-

Shipping. Yeah that's going to get interesting with the weight of all those heads. Forging to me. Me to Heat Treater. Heat Treater to me. Me to Ihateplastic? Hmm....more calculations needed. Back to you soon.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2009 - 01:41am PT
Ah, Theron, missed your post. Fabulous. Will bug Lewis for the quote; we should have seen it by now. Bill's right on about the shipping, won't do to forget that.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jun 21, 2009 - 05:14am PT
Theron, I hear your pain, regarding the shipping costs from here to you to there to you to . . . .

Most of the energy expended by people, throughout history, has been in moving goods and materials from one place to another, and more recently, people moving themselves about in their wax-polished metal boxes.
Danielle Winters

Trad climber
Alaska
Jun 21, 2009 - 06:48am PT
healyje ~ thanks for posting the pics of the handle grains. The one in the middle I think it was the red one ,was perfect! I wish all the handle's had a vertical grain like that .
So where do I sign up to buy . Danielle
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2009 - 03:48am PT
Danielle, post up here for one...

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=853495
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 24, 2009 - 03:29pm PT
Just got a quote for the handles - $2.75

Onward to financing and e-commerce (Simon?)...
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Jun 24, 2009 - 09:19pm PT
Make sure you add some "handling" costs as well so you can buy a year's worth of beer. That's the least we can do.

I wonder if you could do one of those fixed cost USPS boxes for posting. They work on size not weight.

This is getting really exciting!



T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Jul 1, 2009 - 12:22am PT
Shipping per each hammer: $1.55

That's with a negotiated rate commercial account too! $387.50 was the overall amount I came up with. Divide that by the 250 hammers and "Viola!"

I'll post later about the leashes.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Jul 21, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
Hammer Handles:

Hammer Leash Options:

Hammer Leash Ring Options:

Gotta talk to Russ to finalize the price.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
I'd really like to see us go with the blue handles and blue supertape sling on the stainless ring w/ black cord shown for this first batch. My reasons for wanting them that way are

 to consistently distinguish this round of hammers from the A5 originals

 tie into the agreement with Conrad to use the project to help support the Alex Lowe Charitable Foundation's [url="http://www.alexlowe.org/kcs.shtml" target="new"]Khumbu Climbing School[/url]:

 such blues appear in numerous Nepali and Tibetan visual themes such as the background of the Khumbu School's logo


 such blues are close the color of the Tibetan Poppy


I wouldn't have the same strong preferences for any subsequent production run of the hammers.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Jul 21, 2009 - 06:20pm PT
I may just start sending money randomly.


so cool to see the pics


Captain...or Skully

Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
Jul 21, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
I longer have any visible means of support, so unfortunately for me, I'm out.
Dammit.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Jul 21, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
Good color!

Blue it is.

Man I can't wait!
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 21, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
in chamonix a few years back, i saw the french army recruits climbing in short shorts that were that exact shade of powder blue. or lapis lazuili or whatever shade that is.

nttawwt
BlackGeorge

Social climber
Utah
Aug 20, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
When will they be ready??
Radish

Trad climber
Seki, California
Aug 20, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
Man, I got into this thread way late. I have some hammer thoughts that are out of the box and tested. Alls good with the designs I see, they all needed refining. But, I think the swing answer is in the leashing. A GOOD leashing will let your arm take the swing. You won't have to work the wrist that holds the hammer and get tired faster with the small wrist muscle holding it in place everytime the swing is coming back. With a GOOD leash your arm takes the control and on the swing its the arm that packs the punch, making the hammer more an extension of your arm. Kinda of like a catapult. I remember a long time ago that baseball bats started having a little pry bar type of device right above where your upper hand was that gave the ball some serious send. I think they outlawed it. Anyways, with a leash and the new hammer handle design it should whack the hell out of all the other designs.........
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 21, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
When will they be ready??

Good question.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
Gotta check back in with Theron...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2014 - 10:06am PT
Just picked up a new McDevit hammer on eBay, will be interested to get it in my hands and see how it feels.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Jun 10, 2014 - 10:08am PT
nice

couchmaster

climber
Jun 10, 2014 - 10:20am PT
ROUND 2.


I'm in for 2. DING
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