Todd Skinner's Response to the Wet Denim Controversy

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Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 15, 2005 - 03:34pm PT
I gave Todd a head's on the thread threatening to chop the bolts that he and Jim added to Wet Denim Daydream on Leaning tower.

If you want to chime in here, I suggest you read that thread in it's entirety and lets raise the tone of discussion as well. The thread is here

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=128775&f=0&b=0

This isn't meant to Todd's definative statement. He had just returned a couple emails to me and I asked his permission to share them as he has no intent to come wade into the soup and I thought a I little of his perspective would be helpful.

__

Here's what Todd said:

Howdy Karl-Wow!

Some people get wound up for some pretty trivial reasons! And how about my multiple "Skinner" defenders?

Another reason I haven't read a climbing magazine in 6 or 7 years and will never post on climbing sites!

One of the good things about climbing for so many years and in so many different areas is that my perspective has improved. I've seen people die, seen children that were starving and would not last the month, seen a family bury a 6 month old girl and hurry on toward a doctor 5 days away to try to keep their other 3 kids from dying of malaria- things that really do matter.

We are only petty if we allow ourselves to forget how wonderful and easy our lives are here in America.

(Next email)

Hey Karl-

One interesting point that hasn't been brought up is that I talked extensively to Angus Thurmer about adding bolts to WDD and he had no problem with it.

He pointed out that if the bolts were far enough from the corner, there would be two routes: WDD using aid and not reaching outto clip the bolts, and WLN clipping the bolts while free climbing.

I just called him and he was 100% against chopping the bolts, stating that it was an intellectual problem, not an ethical one. One reason I haven't brought this up is that I have never considered the first-ascentionists to be the owners of the route, and this includes me and routes I have put up. The future climbers inherit each route before the chalk dust settles and our allegiance must always be to them.

If Alex Huber really did create a crimp on the last section of the headwall of the Salathe as I have been told, the climbers to come are affected- not the climbers that have already passed.

Angus asked how climbers could clip the bolts while aid climbing and think they have done WDD. He likened it to using a long cheater stick, which is also a personal choice. He stressed personal choice again and again, which I agreed with completely, and bemoaned the "sheriffs" that have always appointed themselves the interpreters of fixed rules in a dynamic, evolving sport.

Another reason that I haven't brought up my discussions with Angus is that this situation must stand on its own. What if it was one of Harding's routes? Do we leave it exactly like he did, in a "mausoleum mind-set"? Who could seriously argue that he was against bolts? Again, reverence for the past, allegiance to the future.

Also, there are fanatics on both sides. I got an e-mail from someone who I have never met and has never done a wall who paraphrased the Zen saying, "Chop 100 bolts, put in 101". Sounds like nobody "wins" ,but for sure the rock loses- and, by extension, so do we all.

Stay hungry- Todd Skinner
==

I think it's good that we are discussing these issues before taking action on the stone. Thanks to Coiler for making his intentions known in advance so we can get some facts.

Peace

Karl
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
boulder, co
Dec 15, 2005 - 07:49pm PT
Good post Karl. Looks like most of the folks on this site much rather slam Todd than listen to what he has to say!

pc

climber
Eastside
Dec 15, 2005 - 08:25pm PT
Perhaps that's why some of us climb...To get out those pent up aggressions. I personally find hockey to be much better for that. Climbing's better for clearing the mind in general.

pc
Howie

Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
Dec 15, 2005 - 08:35pm PT
Hi Karl.
I rarely post here but read on most days and must say that sometimes its nice to see you bring some sanity back to the forum from time to time.
This whole business of bolts is charged on both sides of the fence.
I for one, being very old school and a Brit, would prefer to climb without seeing or using bolts. I would also like to think that we can all climb just on passive gear also. But I'm not too stuck in the mud to realise change happens and wow have we seen change in climbing over the 40 odd years I have been part of this incredible activity.
Bolts are without doubt one of the safest forms of protection out there and are also the biggest cause of arguments/discussion in climbing circles to date without a doubt.
Now here comes the crunch. If the bolters feel there is a good enough reason to bolt a route unfortuately there will be a chopper who feels they have a good enough reason to chop those bolts. Each party has equal rights do they not?
Who suffers here? The rock, the stone this magnificent substance we use, feel, smell, breath, take comfort in, swear and curse at.
Whilst helping to complete a new route this past year would you believe I was witness to seeing my first bolts being placed and with a drill to boot! What saddened me greatly, even more than the bolt placement itself was that within what, 30/60 seconds we had reduced part of this wonderful rock to dust. It had take millions of years for the earth to construct this face and here we were destroying part of it in seconds. We are indeed a funny animal.
I think my point is that if we place bolts or chop bolts and each to me has equal "rights", we must do this with the utmost thought put into the action we are about to take. Once drilled or chopped the rock will never be the same again.
Everyone, climb safe.
H.

Gramicci

Social climber
Ventura
Dec 15, 2005 - 08:36pm PT
Karl, thanks for chasing this down. It was good to read.

I think with the amount of traffic on the rock these days this episode should show that a broader consensus should maybe be taken before venturing off into controversial territory.

After weighing all that I have read and also freeing several aid lines myself I would suggest the bolts remain. An explanation for this would be to long a post and I know most people won’t want to hear something against the grain. We should all look deep inside and ask why is really bothering us.

You must consider all that has gone before to make a fair assessment.

Mike Graham
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 15, 2005 - 08:49pm PT
Given he's seen it and climbed it I'd go with Ammon's call for calm and to deal with the one bolt - or not. I suspect he's non-chalant about simply not clipping the bolt due to his extended mileage aid climbing, but so be it. And maybe that is the deal - that we should take a more Werner-esque approach by "staying within" ourselves and not worrying about Todd and just aiding on through...

Karl - thanks for closing the loop some on this discussion by getting ahold of Todd...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 15, 2005 - 09:09pm PT
Wow Karl (and Todd), that is a fat perspective. When you view some real tragedies, our "problems" begin to pale.

About tragedy, who was it that said "When you fall into a manhole and break your neck, that's comedy. Tragedy is when I get a hang nail."

A-hem, back to my point. I was thinking about the FA and the person's "rights" to a route.

When someone pens and copyrights a song that becomes popular, that person gets royalties each time someone else covers thier tune. When I get rich and famous and play "Start Me Up" to a sold-out stadium, I'll be paying Mick and the Boys some coin for using their "art."

But more to the point, if I rip off the melody, but use my own words, Richards and the Boys can sue me for copyright infringment when I make money on their tune (but don't pay the royalties).

In a convoluted way, the ethics of climbing have come to say that if you pen a route, you have the copyright to that route. Climb it all you want, but for God's sake don't steal the melody and pen new words to the existing piece.

I'm not saying whether the ethic is good or bad, just a perspective.

Here's another one (and a darn good one at that):

Reverence for the past, allegiance to the future.

:- k
Loom

climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
Dec 15, 2005 - 11:43pm PT
Since he’s disinclined to come on StuporTopo so we can drill him the way he drilled WDD, I’m writing this in response, not in reply, to the points Skinner made in his e-mails to Karl.

----------------------------------------


The earth may eventually be sterilized of all life by another asteroid impact; why worry about anything . . .

There are a lot of f*#ked up things in this world. I feel that through my career I sometimes contribute a tiny bit to making things better. I should do more; we all should. I sometimes feel a wistful ache for what could be and an indignant fury at the stupidity that is rampant. But mostly I end up feeling overwhelmed, and I find that the walls, crags and trails are places where I can catch my breath and regain my balance. So what happens up there is something I care about. It’s something that affects me. And it is something that I feel I might even be able to change for the better, if only just a small amount . . .

I don’t want to entirely waste my time though. And it certainly is petty to worry about style issues--things that don’t affect me. If someone wants to hangdog for weeks until he can send and thereby get the satisfaction that comes from hard work paying off, that’s his thing, certainly not mine, but I‘m not going to write long-winded forum posts about it . . .

Some will disagree, but I think the first ascentionist’s permission should matter very little if not at all. Before you go up to chop you should contact the first ascentionist to find out what is original, but (unless a feature fell off) you don’t add bolts. If the FAist came back ten years later to add bolts I’d still be pissed. It’s not about the FAist . . .

I don’t care for the “a climb is like a work of art analogy,” but if I was at Shakespeare’s deathbed, and he asked me to re-write Romeo and Juliet to give it a happy ending and burn the rest of his manuscripts, I would smother him with his pillow before he could ask anyone else. But what if the writer is a hack, you ask? Like I said I don’t like the analogy . . .

The FA rule doesn’t make perfect sense, but it works. You treat the FA with respect even if you respect neither the climb nor the climber who put it up. In Skinner's "future" a 5.13 climber can “recycle” an aid climb and add bolts, but why shouldn't a 5.10 climber recycle it and free it by placing more bolts and several more strategically placed anchors (in cruxes). And if someone eventually does a free-solo why shouldn't she chop ALL the bolts and give her own name to the recycled route. Why not? I’m pledging my allegiance to Coiler’s vision of the future, not Skinner‘s.

Scott
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Dec 15, 2005 - 11:59pm PT
One reason I haven't brought this up is that I have never considered the first-ascentionists to be the owners of the route, and this includes me and routes I have put up. The future climbers inherit each route before the chalk dust settles and our allegiance must always be to them.


Fair enough. Todd is a visionary and futurist and has no need for an antiquarian version of history, but rather a monumental version of history. To build future projects is a laudable goal. But at what expense is my only thought?

It occurs to me that since there is no claim to ownership, the point about how the 'it's not about the FAist' is mute. It is about individuals now. Whether they put up routes, change existing, establish new great ones, or respect traditional lines by removing bolts that are newly put in. It's really about the individual. Isn't it?

Until it really goes free, all of it, it just seems insufficient a reason to add bolts to an existing route, not becuase 'no new bolts' but because there is no claim to quasi ownership and because there is no 'future' that is free from exception in this example. I also personally don't see how The Nose is considered free if one climbs chiseled hand holds, either.

Call me old fashioned. But as we tread on to the future, a certain respect needs to be paid to the past before we can open the future with great routes and new horizons.

Cheers,
M
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
Dec 16, 2005 - 12:11am PT
So what exactly did the first email mean? What bearing does it have with adding bolts to an existing aid line?

He is somehow seeing the world differently than us?


Juan
WBraun

climber
Dec 16, 2005 - 12:14am PT
So doesn't the nose go free using the chisled holds?

Everything is manufactured by someone :-)

Either it is a mere mortal or Nature and it's higher power :-)

The nose has been freed in the state it is currently in, one can not take this away, even if some holds have ben altered by man and not nature.

What will become of these poor climbers who still think that the world is flat and at the end of this flat world they will fall into the abyass of their fear.
billygoat

climber
Dec 16, 2005 - 01:19am PT
Every free route on El Cap goes because of chiseled holds. They're called pin scars.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 16, 2005 - 01:53am PT
Loom scribs "...but why shouldn't a 5.10 climber recycle it and free it by placing more bolts and several more strategically placed anchors (in cruxes)."

I'm pretty sure we all agree, anchors on "free" routes should be at no-hands stances. Adding anchors in the middle of an existing pitch? Yikes.

:- k
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Dec 16, 2005 - 04:41am PT
I vote for the chop.

Huge Balls

Big Wall climber
Darkside of the Moon
Dec 16, 2005 - 12:21pm PT
Turd Skimmer is F#$*IN "LIGHT DUTY"!!!
MZiebell

Social climber
Prescott, AZ
Dec 16, 2005 - 04:30pm PT
Thank you Karl for trying...

Good for you for tracking down Todd and soliciting his input.

Nice!

Martin
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