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Josh
Trad climber
Watsonville, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 29, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
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Given that the leader is facing a factor 2 fall onto the anchor about half the time when climbing the dike pitch-by-pitch, do you think it's actually safer for two reasonable climbers to simul-climb?
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
a greasy pinscar near you
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May 29, 2009 - 12:50pm PT
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You might be onto something. Hey, climb on a 70m rope so you can be clipped into more bolts!
If you have to worry about falling off that dike, though, maybe backcountry climbing isn't really for you.
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jahil
Social climber
Does this rock make my ass look fat?
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May 29, 2009 - 12:56pm PT
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It all depends where your comfort level is. I did it two years ago with a couple of friends. The guy I was climbing with was not comfortable on the friction traverses, so we did not simul climb. Our friends were more comfortable, they simul climbed the whole thing and were done an hour before us.
We did the whole thing in a day, took the mule trail on the way out and on the way back adding more miles to the approach/descent, I drove home to Santa Cruz afterwards. The climbing was the easiest and most fun part of the day.
steve
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Outside
Trad climber
Truckee
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May 29, 2009 - 12:56pm PT
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I would wait until after the traverse, and on the dike, then it would all be easy climbing and straight up.
And yes you better have lots of rope between you otherwise your both soloing AND tied in.
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Joe
Social climber
Santa Cruz Mountains/Los Gatos
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May 29, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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what Rob said.
except instead of a 70, we did it with an 8.5mm half rope. it's a no fall climb and if there is a remote possibility of a leader fall, go somewhere else.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 29, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
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The cheese grater effect would prevent a factor 2 fall.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
a greasy pinscar near you
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May 29, 2009 - 01:11pm PT
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...not to mention the decreased weight of the cheese-block after the 400' skidder...
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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May 29, 2009 - 01:19pm PT
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Since the actual climb is a smaller part of the day, why rush?
To answer your question, no.
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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May 29, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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We used a 70, pitched it out till after the first pitch on the dike, simuled the rest, had a blast. We were at the base tying in less than 2.5 hours from leaving the car, took three hours on the route (very leisurely pace) and were back to the car in less than three from the top. I think car to car was about 7.5 hours, which could be greatly improved by running. We took a red alien, 4 draws, three lockers and a small piece of webbing.
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Josh
Trad climber
Watsonville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
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Hey - thanks for your feedback.
I'm interested in our instinctual/irrational versus rational assessment of risk - e.g. how we believe it's a no-fall situation, but still use a rope. It's a little different than most pitched climbing, where you can get a piece in early off the belay to reduce the possible fall factor, so I'm interested in how that changes (or doesn't change) our assessment of the relative risk of simul-climbing.
How much do you think cheese-grating affects the fall factor?
Yea, the bummer of simul-climbing is that it's over so fast! It's fun though ..
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Gene
climber
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May 29, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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How much do you think cheese-grating affects the fall factor?
Once on the dike portion, tons. It's not steep at all. A fall would be more of a slide. IIRC, it *may* be possible to have two bolts between partners at all times.
gm
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 29, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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I've only soloed it so my recollection of the dike itself is that there weren't any bolts between the belays. Assuming I'm totally wrong, you could, since it's easy, but I wouldn't want anything less than two bolts between me and my partner, otherwise you might as well solo it.
Having said that though, since there's so little pro, it actually climbs really fast. Plus, as someone mentioned, the real beef of the climb is the approach and descent.
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hagerty
Social climber
A Sandy Area South of a Salty Lake
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May 29, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
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Not true - there are indeed bolts between the belays, but not many - often only one.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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May 29, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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After the traverse on the 2nd pitch, it's kinda hard to fall. there are TONS of knobs and features and the dike is pretty wide in most places. Do the first couple pitch trad style then once on the prime dike climb together after the rope runs out, most of the pitches don't have pro anyway and if you get sketched....set up a belay on go back to the "normal" style of belaying, but if you can lead 5.7 or 5.8 it shouldn't cause problems. I've done it ton of times and we always simul climb it......but enjoy the climb and the views...it is a classic and beautiful setting, to be enjoyed!
Be SAFE and have fun.
Peace
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Dapper Dan
climber
Menlo Park
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May 29, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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cant you run a quickdraw , or just a biner through an anchor bolt ? and the leader clips that as his first piece, and if the leader falls they dont fall on the belayer , but that very close bolt ?
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ec
climber
ca
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May 29, 2009 - 03:29pm PT
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the only thing that irrational is to arrive to late to the base...get in line...plan b
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 29, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
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A factor 2 fall onto a big bolted belay on an easy slab / jugged dike is not that big of a risk.
If you simulclimb, there is a risk the follower could fall and pull the leader off in a runout section. This presents more of a risk to the leader, in my view.
If you want a method to avoid a factor 2 fall (and to avoid the belayer being hit by a falling leader), the belayer can hang below the anchor 20' or so via the rope. The leader clips the anchor with a screamer. It still can put a high load on the anchor. I don't think this is needed for Snake Dike, but it may be a helpful option on other climbs where the climbing is harder and/or the belay anchor weaker.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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May 29, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
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anyone been on SD in really high winds and like to share some experiences they had.
I once saw a party on it with what seemed like their whole rope
length arch'd out flying in the wind between the 2 climbers, free of the rock. I mean way way out.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 29, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Fer Christ's sakes!
A factor 2 fall is not possible if you hit or slide on something!
That said, the idea of simul-climbing has some merit because it is slab. The major risk of simul-climbing is a second fall, not a leader fall. The risk of a second fall on slab is somewhat mitigated by the cheese-grater effect. The first may catch the second. Or the second may catch him self since the fall is being resisted by both his grating and the leader grating.
Or you could just take a bolt kit. :-)
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Josh
Trad climber
Watsonville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
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Thanks again all.
The cheese grater / fall factor issue seems to me like an important part of the risk analysis. I guess whatever the fall factor would be for a leader straight off of a belay, it would be reduced by having the whole rope absorb the fall while simul-climbing - so that risk (damage to the climber? failing anchor?) would be reduced to some extent. How does that reduction in risk compare to the added risk of being pulled off by your second, given two reasonably capable climbers. Yea, the second falling doesn't always pull off the leader, especially on a slab like that. You could also reduce the risk of being pulled off by your second by using a tibloc or something like that. Would simul-climbing then be safer than pitch-by-pitch? It seems counter-intuitive.
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