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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 13, 2009 - 03:26pm PT
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We all know the FDA and pharmaceutical companies are relectant to evaluate naturally occuring herbal remedies for obvious reasons. It'd put them out of business. So I though I'd create a thread where we could share what we know.
I recently learned that Milk Thistle extract (Silymarin) helps to promote healthy liver function and can even 'repair' damaged liver cells. http://silymarin.com/
I just received more evidence of this (the FDA is reluctant to do this research) after reading an article in todays San Jose Mercury News. Apparently a woman and 2 kids ate highly toxic mushrooms that threatened to shut down their livers and force liver transplants...guess what happend?
http://m.mercurynews.com/articles/189654609
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2009 - 03:28pm PT
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This article is too important to fall off of the newspaper's website so I'll copy/paste it here;
The call that awakened Dr. Todd Mitchell on the Tuesday after Christmas gave him chills.
A woman and her twin 11-year-old grandsons had eaten soup made from deadly mushrooms they picked in the woods. Dr. Kent Olson of California Poison Control was on the line, asking how to contact the German company that makes a drug used to treat death cap mushroom cases in Europe.
Mitchell knew mortality from death caps is higher for children.
He felt a sense of urgency, and the situation was hauntingly familiar.
Two years ago at Dominican Hospital in Santa Cruz, Mitchell and Dr. Wendy Knapp treated a family of six who had eaten tacos made of death cap mushrooms they picked at Wilder Ranch State Park.
Mitchell searched Google and found a treatment used in Europe, an intravenous milk thistle preparation called Legalon-Sil. He persuaded the Food and Drug Administration to allow its use as an emergency investigational new drug. He arranged for an air courier to deliver the medication to the San Francisco hospital where four of the six patients had been taken after developing liver failure and needed transplants.
None of the patients underwent transplants. All recovered but one, the 83-year-old grandmother. Her liver recovered but she succumbed to kidney failure.
Afterward, Mitchell prepared a report on the treatment for the FDA and made a presentation at a European toxicology conference in Seville, Spain.
Now, he was being asked whether he could retrace his steps, procure the intravenous milk thistle, obtain FDA approval and get it to San Francisco the very next day.
"It was like déjà vu all over," Mitchell said.
This time, the patients included Sarah Elbert, 72, a retired history professor and lifelong mushroom hunter from Ithaca, N.Y. While visiting her grandsons in the Bay Area, she had taken them mushroom picking on Mount Tamalpais in Marin County the Sunday after Christmas, and made soup.
Twelve hours later, all three were vomiting and experiencing diarrhea. Twice they went to the hospital and were discharged.
When the symptoms worsened, the family returned to the hospital, where they were told to drive to University of California-San Francisco Medical Center, which has a pediatric liver transplant unit.
Mitchell called Joe Veilleux of German drugmaker Madaus in Pittsburgh. Veilleux told him Madaus' offices in Germany were closed for the holiday and wouldn't reopen until Jan. 5. The same was true for an Italian company that bought Madaus six months after the Santa Cruz mushroom poison case.
"He told me I don't know what you will do,' " Mitchell said, so he called the FDA.
There is not a huge market for the drug in the United States because mushroom poisoning is more common in Europe. So the astronomical cost to get FDA approval for milk thistle extract, or silybinin, has so far stalled any effort to stock it in the United States for emergency use.
When Mitchell rang the FDA, he asked whether he could use the identification number granted two years ago for Legalon, which would speed things up. He was told he would have to reapply for permission.
Mitchell called the pharmacy at a hospital in Munich and asked for as much silybinin as it had in stock. Nicola Clausius, clinical pharmacist, said she would try to get the drug onto the next Lufthansa flight to San Francisco, departing Frankfurt the next morning. She arranged for a personal courier. As she packed the drug in a box, she asked whether Mitchell had the investigational new drug number the shipment required.
He didn't — yet.
Within hours of his call, the FDA phoned Mitchell. Staffers had met the Santa Cruz doctor and had seen the report he submitted the year before and decided to issue the requisite number.
Then the Munich pharmacist called with bad news. The first plane departing Frankfurt was sold out. The next flight would depart four hours later and arrive in San Francisco as rush hour traffic began.
Mitchell worried the special delivery would arrive too late for the twins, who were sicker than their grandmother. So he went to work explaining to Lufthansa why the stakes were high. After 15 minutes, he got a seat for the courier on the earliest flight.
But when the drug arrived — with expenses paid for by Madaus — there were only 14 vials rather than the 18 Mitchell had expected. Who would get what?
Doctors decided to treat the twins first because of the higher mortality rate in children.
By the next morning, both boys improved, allowing what remained of the drug to be given to their grandmother. She recovered and was discharged three days later. Her grandsons left the hospital eight days after ingesting the poison.
Another transglobal success story — that maybe next time won't be so hectic.
"I'm getting strong signals from the FDA that they may soon grant an open IND (investigational new drug) application for Legalon-Sil," Mitchell said Friday. "This would allow the antidote to be rapidly accessible from a California pharmacy after an amatoxin poisoning."
358 people were treated for mushroom ingestion last year in California.
Seventeen ended up in intensive care.
Five experienced liver failure requiring a transplant or ongoing dialysis.
One died.
Source: California Poison Control
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Jan 13, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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One thing to remember in natural remedies is that there is no way to measure or control the drug. Just like pot has different levels of THC depending on where it was grown and which strain it was, most simple herbal remedies unless refined cannot be measured, which makes it impossible for a federal agency to control.
That being said, I abhor the drug companies, and besides about 10 vitamin I's in the past decade, I have used only herbal remedies myself.
Activated charcoal in pill or powder form I use the most. I take it for food poisoning, use it in poultices over infected wounds, it has an amazing ability to absorb toxins, which coincidentally absorbs other drugs, so never take it with other pills as it will make them useless.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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Tooth, of course, you're correct. I'm not saying to go out and start munching random quantities of wild Milk Thistle out of the ground.
The stuff I take is in a capsule form that is in measured quantity, i.e. 175 m.g.
The problem with the lack of research with natural herbs is dosage and over-dosage. Consuming too much ascorbic acid results in your body naturally purging it in the form of diarehha. What does too much Milk Thistle do?
For this reason I take light doses of it. It says to take up to 2 tablets a day. I take one every other day of so.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jan 13, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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Similar story with Red Yeast Rice for high cholesterol. In it's pure form, red yeast rice contains the same molecular lovastatin structure as Merck's Mevacor drug. (Merck copied the structure by the way)
A number of studies by the Swiss and Cubans found that red yeast rice had the same cholesterol reduction effects as did a manufactured statin. The difference is that a statin drug will set you back 90 bucks a month whereas the red yeast rice runs about 10 bucks.
Now comes the evil part - Merck, in an effort to prevent smart shopping by patients - lobbied the FDA to declare red yeast rice a "drug" and therefore subject to regulation.
After some back-and-forth in the courts, it was declared in 2000 that no red yeast rice sold in America could contain the active molecular structure lovastatin.
So much for freedom of choice in health care!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 13, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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Lots of herbal stuff seems to have no effect (and it would be easy for there to be some good effect that's long term or not noticed) but I'll throw out a few tidbits that I've experienced dramatic help with.
1. As you get older guys, your prostate will inexorably enlarge. The drugs for this aren't great and the surgery is much worse. I highly recommend herbal prostate concoctions that contain liberal amounts of Saw Palmetto. Proven to work in studies. Takes a few weeks or month to show effects but makes a marked difference that's well worth it.
2. Psyllium Husk fiber in drinks sometime accompanied with colon cleansing herbs like "Yerba Prima Kalenite formula" works wonders on make you fell lighter, fresher, and reset in your lower digestive process.
http://www.myvitanet.com/kalherfor100.html
Peace
Karl
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Wheatus
Social climber
CA
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Jan 13, 2009 - 06:17pm PT
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Before you take anything I would suggest consulting a professional first. In California there are licensed acupuncturists that specialize in herbal medicine and have the title O.M.D. (Oriental Medical Doctor). OMD's have the appropriate training to answer your herbal remedy questions.
My brother is a leading herbalist in California [www.mmvbs.com] who has dedicated his life work to herbal medicine. Some supplements are innocuous and others down right dangerous. A professional can steer you in the right direction. Watch out for the hundreds of quacks that run rampant in the "alternative medicine" fields.
A good friend has serious liver problems. His wife, with good intentions, bought a "liver cleansing" product that made miraculous claims. I asked her to run the formula by my brother and he said it would "do more harm than good." Basically, it was a powerful laxative and diuretic. Most herbal claims that are to good to be true are just likely that.
Be careful out there!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 13, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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My herbal remedie
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 13, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
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I avoid this problem by never eating mushrooms. UGGGGH!
And I'm not so big on OTC supplements, although I take a multi-vitamin and a cod liver pill every day.
Drugs definitely have their place, although better living through chemistry isn't my mantra. Unexamined supplements are another thing, herbal or not - there are major issues around whether there's any scientific proof of their effects (and side-effects), not to mention issues around quality control. Some are now starting to be examined scientifically in Canada.
Apparently male virility enhancers are popular in east Asia, usually featuring ingredients supposedly made from the penises of rare, virile species like tigers. (Not that they seem to have a problem with virility there - look at their population.) Luckily, most of it is fake. And none ever scientifically tested. But one development is that the people who make it now slip some Viagra into the tiger penis stuff. Which creates the double problem of making the stuff work, and so promoting demand - and pressure on those species.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 13, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
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There are actually quite a few good mycomedicinals out there. The "Ice Man" they found in the Alps had some. Lot of good it did him.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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Anders, I agree with some of the weird 'tiger penis' stuff for the same reasons. I'm talkng more mainstream researched remedies like Saw Palmetto (thanks Karl) and Milk Thistle, which the FDA is close to recognizing.
Thanks too, Ricky, that's messed up about removing the 'active' ingredient that's medicinally beneficial.
I think it goes without saying that caution should be used in introducing any new substances to your diet.
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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Jan 13, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
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why the fish pill?
i keep hearing an ad on the radio for fish pills from norway.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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I think it's the fish oils, Abe. Omega-3 acids are great for mind, heart, health. It's pretty much a fact. The pills are better because they remove ant heavy-metals that fish may contain.
That chick in the ad sounds hot, huh? I think so...
Me, I just eat fish.
Anybody got data on massive doses of garlic? Another instance of a substance hard to get too much of that's a badass compound.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Jan 13, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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each person will get to know themselves as time goes on.
you end up knowing more about yourself than any doctor.
which can be frustrating when visiting a new doctor.
and it is doctor by commitee now.
data base will be online soon.
you drive into a j box, they scan your retina, your chart comes up, and some freak cuts you a script.
it is best to get by on as few extra remedies as possible, my cabinet is empty.
aspirin and some chronic, and a lot of black tea.
cilantro is good, so are sliced tomaters,, peppers,
basically, the Mexicans have had the herb thing down for eons, so if you shop at a Mexican Market like Mi Pueblo, you do not need to see the Herb Doctor with all the weird boxes.
had a friend who was obsesed with this stuff, he had so many dang bottles he had to open up in the morning, and what if you run out?you start gettin all jiggity.
and big bucks, too.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Jan 13, 2009 - 10:47pm PT
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Bluey: if you want to find out what works, get a sick pet. The FDA is fukked up but the animal guys are all about experimentation.
Saw Palmetto has been prove INEFFECTIVE, again, recently. Want to keep your prostrate in shape? Start dating a sock and kill plenty of kittens, just like Locker. I bet he can write his name in the snow at 30 paces.
Is DMSO herbal? I think knott™, but its effectiveness is unrivaled in all of modern medicine.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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WTF is DMSO, Russ?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Jan 13, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
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shiit Bluey..... it is the stuff of legend. Dimethylsulfoxide (sp?) a by product of the paper industry. Sold only as a "solvent" but in a roll on bottle. Dosed the Jaybro on Thanksgiving.. you could see the swelling go down in his hand. Seriously.
Quick testimonial: I broke my ankle. Actually Jerry Moffatt (name drop) broke it for me when we were ice skating. Giant ankle.... DMSO from the knee down... walking without a limp in 30 minutes. Surgery a year later... but still....
Somehow removes inflammation from soft tissue. Nobody knows how. Will carry any other substance into the the body from a topical application. Can penetrate the blood/brain barrier. Supposedly causes some sort of damage on a genetic level. I feel fine though.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
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Hmm, I'll check it out. Lemme Google it.
I tell you what though, the Milk Thistle, especially if you're a hobbiest in liver abuse....I'm just sayin'!
climbing edit: I hear you ran in to my buddy Kev down in Cochise. Good times!
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Jan 13, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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had an uncle up in Portland who was in the mill biz.
knew the guy who discovered DMSO.
was cuttin the trees down and some fluid from the tree got on his sore elbow.
the ewe tree bark from the same forest can be made into taxol, but the tree freaks will not let us have it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
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Also I have it on pretty good authority that Saw Palmetto does work.
This will piss off the libs who should love this guy, but Michael Savage (Michael Weiner) PhD, is an expert in herbal medicines and botanical health. He's also a right-wing 'shock jock' who pretty much kicks ass IMO.
He's pretty supportive of Saw Palmetto, Milk Thistle, and other basic cures. Read his book, "Healing Children Naturally", if you have kids. Pretty common sensicle.
Catch his political talk radio show too, Dingus really loves this guy!
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