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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 4, 2008 - 03:21am PT
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Let's look at bolting lines of strength next to lines of weakness.
exhibit A:
50 words for pump
Joe writes:
"The history of 50 Words For Pump goes like this…..The route was bolted years ago and stood as a very challenging project. ... the first ascent about a year ago. During this stint, another sequence was realized to the right (”50 Words Right”). This variant is completely different crux and moves all together."
Munge writes:
Exhibit B:
Last weekend we put in a route that climbs independent from a nearby line, but eventually touches the nearby line. So much so that we decided that rather than add bolts 5 to 5.5 feet away we would either climb thru without or just utilize the nearby route's bolts. Either method of ascent being equally justified.
Do we consider our line a squeeze job merely because it recycles existing bolts? no, in fact, i would argue that is the ethical thing to do both from a utilitarian ethics as well as a aesthetic perspective. Yes, an independent set of bolts on a face may have value as a line of strength. But to add bolts near an existing line seems unjustified in many instances.
thoughts?
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Last I checked, the rule book still allowed for top roping. Do we have to bolt and lead every possible line? Nothing wrong with a TR variation. Its still climbing.
Those are my thoughts.
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WBraun
climber
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Many many many moons ago, we stood in El Cap meadows pondering the future fate of what will happen on El Cap.
Bridwell declares every crack must be climbed, and we took it as a joke and laughed.
What's that got to do with this?
It's happening everywhere ........
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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I agree with Jerry, if the new line is of the same or harder grade. If it is dramatically simpler, then the TR option is only available to the more accomplished climber and is less attractive to him than the harder line to the less accomplished climber.
Then there is the issue of the climber density at the crag. Perhaps an independent route would be useful even at the same grade if the crag in question is, or becomes crowded, whatever that means to you.
Interesting question...
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MisterE
Trad climber
My Inner Nut
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I think creating a new thread of your own rather than just adding to an already existing thread that related to your topic is a good analogy for squeezejobs:
Everyone wants to have their own headline/route.
I agree with Jerry, but also think using existing bolts for a seperate line is a viable and considerate approach.
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jstan
climber
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OK. I am going to say what I suspect is really true.
Adolescent male psychology has a lot to do with climbing. At that stage we are trying to see what we can do and want to leave behind some sign of our having been there. Later on we develop other story lines like building routes for others to enjoy. Believe what you will.
For my own part the most exciting moment I ever got on a new route was the moment I first saw that there might be a possibility. The doing of it AND the having done it moments were all anticlimactic.
When we leave the rock obviously changed we destroy that moment for everyone else. So in the process of our moving beyond adolescence we leave trails and marks that do nothing but deny to others what we have enjoyed.
Now the truth of it is getting through adolescence is not an act like climbing a piece of rock.
It is a journey.
It can take decades.
What is a more appropriate medium for this transition? If I had not long ago given up on getting past adolescence here is how I would make the transition. I would pick a trail. 100 miles. 200 miles. Whatever. I would run it till I could no longer stand. Then I would fall down and sleep till too cold to sleep. Then I would start running again- until I reached the end.
That would be a true journey.
Oddly enough, I understand this is how the Cheyenne made the transition. When at that age the elders would turn loose a horse and the youngster would either run down the horse and ride it back, or not come back at all. It took days.
In Australia the aborigines call it "walkabout."
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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There is the fine art of not doing something. to create a new line is no big deal. The have and will be more first ascents than I can count.
jerry is on target
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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I have to admit, I'm a bad man. I've squeezed a few in over the years, and yes, added variations. At a certain point you get bored with your local crag and want more options. You look around and say, "hey, that hasn't been climbed..." and pretty soon you find all kinds of reasons to justify the drill. Shameful, but true.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Funny last summer we squeezed a bunch of gear routes in between a bunch of well bolted sport routes. We laughed about the irony of how the times have changed. Given the number of new gear routes we did in the course of the afternoon, 6 plus one variation we were at a loss for names so we just called them GR #1, GR #2, GR#4 var., etc. (GR == Gear Route). Well our humor was lost on those who did the FA of the sport routes. Some of it was because one of their sport routes could be safely lead on gear and I noted that.
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Llama
Big Wall climber
The bubble that is Irvine, CA
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My question is....
Why hammer the poor hanger flat... just remove the bolt and jack the hanger for use on some other glorious sport route... c'mon people, don't get lazy!
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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"I have to admit, I'm a bad man. I've squeezed a few in over the years, and yes, added variations. At a certain point you get bored with your local crag and want more options. You look around and say, "hey, that hasn't been climbed..." and pretty soon you find all kinds of reasons to justify the drill. Shameful, but true."
Yes, this definitely happens. We can love our favorite crags to death. Like any great piece of art, you have to know when to say when, or you overdo it. I imagine this applies in photography as well, no Jerry? I reckon some push the saturation too far - or get heavy handed with the dodging and burning, etc...
Ultimately, it's all so subjective. The amount of foreseeable traffic at a given crag is definitely a factor to consider. If you build it, will they really come? When one gets bored, as hard as it is, we should stick to TRing the new squeezes, or simply go somewhere else for a change.
That's funny & sad about the bolted lines going first, then the cracks eventually getting done. I've definitely seen that as well. People just can't seem to resist making a mark these days. But it is a lot of fun! And gyms can be fun too.
Good topic Munge. (Remember the contrived route thread as well.)
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MisterE
Trad climber
My Inner Nut
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I've been bad too
One of my early FAs, at Smith in 96, was an cool .11 face line in an area I had already put up 5 routes. Front-side, Smith Rock.
Just one more...
The problem was, the new one? It crossed a trad line. I made sure that no bolt could be clipped from the trad line, but a week later it was chopped.
I think back on that now, and am like 'WTF was I thinking?' I wasn't thinking, that was the problem. I was over-loving my discovery. Shortly there-after I (predictably) fell out of 'Love'. So much for romancing the stone! Tuff love, if you will.
Go ahead, berate me, I deserve it
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Can both routes be climbed at the same time by two parties without each climber getting stepped on?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2008 - 04:08pm PT
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guilty as charged of created 'related' threads. :)
John's point of the independence of the line and what that means I think is important.
Jstan's point is well received also I think. The zeal for our own projects can blind us to the ways of what might be good for the next generation.
When doing a route ground up, where you can't tell where exactly the climbing will go, it seems you may be left at the mercy of 'joining' lines. In this respect the intentional state of the leader seems to come into play.
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apogee
climber
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Bump for Jerry's comments.
Just because it CAN be climbed, doesn't mean it should be climbed. Too many climbing areas are showing the impact of too many people trying to leave their mark with an FA.
It's worth considering the overall environment and historical use of an area, too. The issues of overbolting, squeezejobs and FA's are less of an issue at a quarry than at a well-established area with sensitive ecology that is already showing the impacts of overuse.
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Hardly Visible
climber
Port Angeles
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This quote from jstan pretty well sums up my new routing experiences.
(For my own part the most exciting moment I ever got on a new route was the moment I first saw that there might be a possibility. The doing of it AND the having done it moments were all anticlimactic.)
And Mister E sez;
(The problem was, the new one? It crossed a trad line. I made sure that no bolt could be clipped from the trad line, but a week later it was chopped.)
(I think back on that now, and am like 'WTF was I thinking?' I wasn't thinking, that was the problem. I was over-loving my discovery. Shortly there-after I (predictably) fell out of 'Love'. So much for romancing the stone! Tuff love, if you will.)
Eric was this the trad route you crossed?
If so I am the one who corrected your transgression. Even though Smith is kind of thought of as an ethics free zone your route started at the same place as a 5.7 R route that is moderately popular with your first bolt removing the R factor. Your route then paralleled a moderately popular 10a trad route where some of your bolts were easily clipped, and then it crossed what I’d consider as one of the top ten best 5.10 trad routes on the tuff. Crack of Infinity is a route that I do almost every time I am at Smith it was more than could bear to imagine having to wait for a party of toproping sport wanabees to clear out before I could get on it. As you can see my motives for removing it were pretty selfish. On the other hand is it really to much to ask that this one small crag with three of the best 5.10 cracks the tuff has to offer remain mostly a trad climbing area?
By the way your route would be easily toproped from the upper anchors of Crack of Infinity.
I guess what I’m getting at is don’t bury the history of an area while your writing today’s chapter.
(Can both routes be climbed at the same time by two parties without each climber getting stepped on?)
This seems like a pretty good question to ask yourself before bolting a new line, if not then relegate your project to top rope status.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Yeah, what's with the hanger flattening?
Fixe...
Let's see you do that to a Petzl hanger!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2008 - 06:22pm PT
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excellent, the thread has brought two sides to the issue together to discuss the import.
It's interesting that we say we should preserve history and yet not all guidebook authors will preserve top rope's or variations in their writings?
Also, as has been said before here and elsewhere, history is not an easy thing to find in all cases. But I like the effort of talking to folks from a particular area and finding out what has been done and what hasn't. That can be a fun discovery and adventuresome process in it's own right without even climbing.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Mungeclimber, cool that you're aiming for honesty and transparency. Doesn't look like you're trying to hide anything, and it seems that you're open to other opinions. Refreshing!
Exhibit A is crystal clear because you've included a photo, making it easy to form an opinion. Since you're asking for opinions: do you have a picture of your route, something showing its relationship to the route that was there before it?
What area are we talking about? What has the pattern been at the venue before your line? You clearly don't, but would other people who've been active there consider your line a squeeze job? What would the woman/man think who put up the line that yours crosses? These are further steps down the walk of transparency, but I get it if you don't want to go into details, post photos, etc. The internet, after all, is COMBUSTIBLE.
These are the things I'd ask myself, I guess.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2008 - 06:58pm PT
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can do. I'd be curious to hear what others think.
i'll post up an image tonight.
both routes i was on the fa party
both routes done ground up, hooks and stance blend (i.e. minimal ability to see exactly where the route would climb until already progressing upward.
to be clear, the newer line does not 'cross' the other line, it merely is a clippable bolt on the former line, or one could climb onto the former line from the newer line. I describe it as the bolt is shared by both routes.
cheers,
M
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