Sport Anchors on Hard Trad Routes - Bolt Replacement

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cultureshock

Trad climber

Wall Climber Wannabe

Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 28, 2008 - 11:59am PT

I feel that anchors on routes should be safe and convenient.

The anchor on a route I am working on has two old Rawl Drive style bolts. One has a hanger the other only has a washer.

I would like to replace these bolts with more modern hardware. My first choice would be Fixe Sport Anchors. I have placed bolts before and would ideally enlarge and reuse the holes.

I am worried about having trouble removing this type of bolt without damaging the rock. If worse comes to worst I can saw them off and epoxy over the studs.

Thoughts? Ideally I would place two of the type of anchor seen below.

Greg Barnes

climber

Oct 28, 2008 - 12:04pm PT

They are generally easy to remove with tuning forks without damaging the rock, but what type of rock is it? You can scar softer sandstone fairly easily by using tuning forks. I've used them with minimal scarring on medium-hard sandstone (Red Rocks).

Here's the basic removal info:

http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/howtorebolt.htm

We (the ASCA) sell tuning forks for $10.

couchmaster

climber

Oct 28, 2008 - 12:05pm PT

Depends on the route AND the area. Personally - I love the Fixe sport hangers in stainless steel, and have been using them all over the place on new routes in new areas. For an established route or established area, I'd go with the predominant ethic, or make sure to get lots of local buy-in, cause the Fixe's cost a lot, and you wouldn't want them disappearing 10 min after you put them in there because someone doesn't feel their spot should resemble the climbing gym. safe and convenient may be nice for you, but bullshit for lots of people. Lots. On occasion I climb at a spot where most of the original anchors (including some put in by Kim Schmitz/Dean Caldwell if that tells you the age), were replaced, and webbing and rings were used FOR EVERY REPLACEMENT. A ST member, Joseph Healy, did most of that work, and did it to keep with the ethic. Part of that ethic is a visual one which your pretty, safe and convenient anchors would violate in a big way. One great thing he did, was use a brass washer with the date stamped on it, so that in 30 years, folks will know when these were replaced.

Were is your location?

Strider

Trad climber

one of god's mountain temples....

Oct 28, 2008 - 12:07pm PT

Thhe rawl's should be easily removable with a tuning fork. A tuning fork (in climber speak) is a Lost Arrow piton that has been milled with a slot down the center of it. You then hammer this under the Rawl hanger and washer and lift the bolt out. If you don't have access to one you can stack Knifeblade pitons under the hanger to slowly lift the bolt out. Ideally you should be able to re-use the holes.

As far as replacement hardware goes, you want to spend the money on that monstrosity above, feel free! Otherwise two hangers is enough.

-n

The user formerly known as stzzo

Armchair climber

Sneaking up behind you

Oct 28, 2008 - 01:25pm PT

Ditto on passing it by the locals. I've noticed that climbers can be a bit territorial.

cultureshock

Trad climber

Wall Climber Wannabe

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2008 - 03:30pm PT

The location is Joshua Tree.

Mike.

climber

Oct 28, 2008 - 03:39pm PT

I think the Mussey Hooks used in ORG last longer than any stock sport anchor shut. Way, way more metal at the rope wear point. I think they can be gotten at home improvement stores...Help me out here, somebuddy...marty(r)?

Mighty Hiker

Social climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Oct 28, 2008 - 03:41pm PT

Suggestions. Tell climbers in your local community what you plan to do, to identify concerns beforehand. Especially those who might disagree. More importantly, if possible, it would be courteous to ask those who made the first ascent for their views.

As for "I feel that anchors on routes should be safe and convenient." - That one may take a little discussing. Belay anchors, likely. Other anchors, not necessarily. Climbing by definition is neither safe nor convenient.

dmalloy

Trad climber

eastside

Oct 28, 2008 - 03:55pm PT

mussy hooks are not quite as pretty as those Fixe, but they do last a long time. Something about the sand in the Gorge chews through anchors quickly, so the mussys are perfect there - on a popular route those Fixe would be scary in a year or so. Mussys are also cheaper, and in the future you can easily replace just the hook and leave the bolt.

You can get 'em from Fish, or from ASCA, if you want to avoid the Home Despair trip (or Blowe's, if that is how you roll).

Ditto everyone's concern about local style....

Mike.

climber

Oct 28, 2008 - 03:59pm PT

Thanks, dmalloy.

Caz

Big Wall climber

Long Beach, CA.

Oct 28, 2008 - 04:05pm PT

What Route in JTree?

Greg Barnes

climber

Oct 28, 2008 - 04:18pm PT

I think hangers have to be camouflaged in JT - at least they did when we got the first power drill permit for replacement (in non-wilderness) a while back. So you'll need to at a minimum do a good tan spray paint job (well before you install them, don't try to camo bolts on the rock). Fixe has tan camo rap hangers (the best are the double-ring hangers), but not sport anchors like the one you have pictured.

Mussy hooks are VERY shiny unless camo'd, but the paint doesn't stick well to them, you need to de-grease them, prime, and paint, and even then it chips off fairly quickly. They are also bigger than the Fixe ones, and so would stand out more (even if camo).

There shouldn't be any worries about the Fixe ones wearing out if it's a hard trad route with low traffic, especially since most of JT is large-grained sand or rock at the base, instead of the super-fine grit that jumps on ropes and shreds the anchors at Owens.

cultureshock

Trad climber

Wall Climber Wannabe

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2008 - 04:51pm PT

The route is Equinox. It's out in Jerry's Quarry which is far off the beaten track on Geology Tour Road. I might guess that at a maximum the route see's about 50-75 ascents a year.

I was planning on painting the anchors. The shiny silver was one of the reasons I was staying away from mussy hooks.

I agree that they do work well at the ORG and are more easily replaced than the Fixe anchors.

I guess if Bachar could chime in that would be ideal. I would expect that he might know who placed the original bolts since he did the first TR back in 78.

Thanks,

Luke

socalbolter

Sport climber

Silverado, CA

Oct 28, 2008 - 05:29pm PT

I guess I'll respond to you here as well.

A tuning fork will work fine if smaller than a 3/8" buttonhead. In good Josh rock, you would be hard pressed to pop a 3/8" bolt with a tuning fork. If the anchor location (I can't remember what it looks like up there right now) gives you enough working space, you may be able to take a long (3-foot or so) crow bar and get enough leverage to pop them out, but be prepared to cut them off and patch the holes if need be.

Greg's (see upthread) advice should be given the most attention as he's the one here who has done this personally the most.

As an aside, I used to place either Super Shuts or Sport Anchors (both by Fixe) on all of my new routes due to the convenience of just clipping the rope into them and lowering off. I no longer do this. Why?:

I think both of those anchor types will wear out far faster than Fixe Ring Anchors due to the fact that the rope will always wear in the same location (same with Mussy Hooks). With the Ring Anchors, the ring is always rotating and moving left to right, making it very difficult to wear the ring exactly the same way. Some of the most popular sport routes in SoCal have Ring Anchors that are coming up on 10 years old and still look more or less brand new.

As I said in our direct email conversation, thanks for doing this. With the recent popularity of sport climbing, and the proliferation of bolted anchors, this type of thing will likely need to be done quite a lot in the years to come. I wish more people had the conviction to fix things up when they saw a need. Even more kudos for recognizing that you don't (currently) know how best to deal with the situation and made the effort to educate yourself.

Louie

p.s. Good luck on the send - I know you've been getting closer with every effort.

Juan Maderita

Trad climber

San Diego, CA

Oct 28, 2008 - 06:15pm PT

I second Louie's opinion of Fixe Ring Anchors. When/if the ring eventually wears out, it can be replaced with a Quick Link.

Another option is to use standard Fixe hangers with a pair of Quick Links on each hanger. The lower link will wear over time, but is easily replaced.

What type of bolts and size are you planning to use?

socalbolter

Sport climber

Silverado, CA

Oct 29, 2008 - 07:57pm PT

If you're going to go with the screwlink option on a standard hanger, I would still suggest using a ring (Fixe sells them loose and separate) in place of the bottom screwlink. The ring does not cost much more (if any) than the second screwlink and again the rope will not continually wear in the same location this way.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 29, 2008 - 08:52pm PT

Why don't you report this down at Nomads and let the locals handle it. There are people here who know how to do this without consulting the internet.

I'll drop them a message.

Thanks for the heads up!