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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 26, 2008 - 07:13pm PT
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I heard McCain state in a debate that this would be one of the main components of his effort to reform education: soldiers could go straight from the battlefield to the classroom without having to do all the necissary prerequisite footwork (i.e. required content and pedagogical knowledge testing and performance evaluations).
Apparently, service to one's country is all that is required to become a teacher.
Does anyone else besides me think this is an incredibly bad idea?
First off, you would never put a teacher straight into a military combat situation, so it doesn't follow that you could put a soldier directly into a teaching environment.
Secondly, Just because you know how to be a good soldier doesn't mean that you know how to be an effective teacher, you know how to differentiate instruction for english language learners as well as for special needs learners, and it doesn't mean that you know how to create a positive learning environment that motivates the students to become critical thinkers and life-long learners.
Finally, who is to say that a war vet in a stressful classroom situation won't have a mental breakdown from latent PTSD and wigg-out on a student, or the entire class? I know (and am related to a few) soldiers who were given a clean mental bill of health by the military only to be faced with serious issues of depression, anxiety, paranoia, insomnia, and a generally disturbed mentat state. I don't think is is an acceptable gamble to put our children's welfare in jeopardy simply to fast-track the re-entry of a soldier into civillian society.
I do think that our soldiers and war vets deserve our utmost respect, regardless of any political affiliation or belief. They are Americans, they served us all, and were willing to die to protect the freedoms that we all enjoy. I just don't believe that putting them in charge of a classroom is the best way to honor them, and provide the best possible education for our children.
Your thoughts?
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oct 26, 2008 - 07:50pm PT
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I teach and I suffer from depression, anxiety, paranoia, insomnia, and a disturbed mental state;....most of these soldiers will be alright. Teaching is not something you learn at college,....it's something you either is or you aint'.....if these soldiers find out it aint' their cup of tea....well then...so be it...If it is their calling, then great. Many/most people go through life with their own "wars/battlefields/demons"......and many teach children...and some are damn good at it in spite of their hardships and challenges.....I would hope that many soldiers have experiences that make them stronger, wiser, more appreciative, ...which would make them excellent teachers;...the ones that come home wacked; of course don't put them in the classroom;.....just think of all the wacked out people (and teachers) who get that way just from the everyday mess they have made of their civilian lives.....soldiers are people too, and many people make awesome teachers. At our school alone, we have teachers who have been soldiers, cancer survivors, victoms of domestic violence, former drug addicts, gnarly car wrecks, had sons/daughters/husbands/wifes die from all sorts of causes;......yet they keep on keepin' on with the kids and their own lives;........Yeah, there is potential for problems, but hey;....anyone can loose it and be an ineffective or psycho teacher.......soldier or not. I bet some soldier who returns home from Iraq missing a leg or an arm is gonna need a worthwhile, meaningful, challenging job he can sink his teeth into, feel like he is making a difference in someone's life, and be a positive influence in a kid's life.......I say go for it! Teaching is a kick ass job......if it works for you;...great;....if it kicks your ass;.....bow down and take another path...I have some climbing bros who have been one, two, or more times to Iraq;....they are fine people who I would be proud to have as teachers for my own kids......Some people even want to make an ex-combat soldier our commander and chief....and he was locked in a cage for years in Viet Nam........maybe he'd do a bang-up job,...maybe he'd go psycho........never know;....are American's going to give him a chance?....we shall see in a few weeks....Whoever is in our classrooms or in the White House, I hope they love kids and teachers.......(Anything is better than Bush's No Child Left Behind.....).........
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Oct 26, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
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I have had the pleasure of meeting several of our returning Marines in the past few weeks. I am so impressed with these men. I met a soldier heading up the tram with a boulder pad this morning. He seemed so grateful to be free.
I am not a fan of anything John McCain says. His plans are not thought out but knee jerk marketing schemes to push his election.
That said, Todd has spelled it out quite eloquently.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Oct 26, 2008 - 07:55pm PT
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Exactly right-on Spencer. That "Troops to Teachers" idea floored me and I almost started a tread on this subject myself but was hoping a teacher might do it.
Heck, why not "Troops to Doctors?"
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Oct 26, 2008 - 09:43pm PT
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I'm a retired teacher, and I see nothing wrong with the idea. When in school in the late forties and through the fifties, almost all the male teachers I had were ex military. I specifically remember an English instructor who was a B17 pilot in Europe and another who had been a marine and wounded on Iwo Jima.
Do I detect a little anti-military problem here?
On the whole, ex military people as teachers will be far more life experienced, older and more mature when taking up teaching positions.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2008 - 10:15pm PT
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Hi Woody, no anti-military sentiment here. None whatsoever. Nothing but respect. Yes, the pendulum swings back and forth with regard to what is worth teaching, and how to best teach it.
Todd you and Woody both have some great points and insight, and I agree that a returning soldier can use his/her life experiences to provide depth to the classroom instructional qualities, and a point of view on life that one can't have without having had the experience. Absolutely. Also, anyone can wigg-out, and yes, there are alot of bad teachers out there. But, those aren't what I'm really concerned about.
My question is: should they be given a pass on the prerequisites to be a teacher simply because they served in the military? I don't think so. I think they should have their schooling paid for, and possibly even start at a higher base pay rate, or have a better retirement plan, but they should still have to take the methodology courses and go through student teaching just like everybody else. It's not just about those soldiers and their life, but the lives of all of those students. I just don't think it's fair to them. To me it's a non-sequitor.
Edit: I was thinking about the whole discipline aspect, and I'm sure that for some kids, and in some situations, there would be fewer discipline problems due to the fact that students might be intimidated by the teacher. However, if you look at what the experts on classroom discipline say (Glasser, Kohn, Charles, Wong, Kagan, Marzano, etc.) being physically imposing, or simply put, being a hard-ass, is not an effective way to get true respect, interest, or enthusiasm from your students. They will cooperate just to make life easier on themselves, but you won't inspire them, and you won't instill the thirst for knowledge that is so vital to fostering innovation and problem-solving that the upcoming generations will have to face. It will get us through the year, but it won't carry us into the future.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Oct 26, 2008 - 10:26pm PT
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It's official, McCain is retarded. It was pretty much a sure thing after the Palin choice and then seeing the debates, but this clearly removes all doubt.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oct 26, 2008 - 10:41pm PT
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Spencer;....student teaching;...yes;......all those teacher classes and endless tests;...NO......No soldier , teacher, student, huminoid needs all that crap;......like I said, either you got it or you don't........but slippin' soldiers in the back door with no training is probably a bad idea;.....Student teaching is a valuable experience;....down and dirty with an established teacher;....practical everyday, real, worthy, and an awesome experiece.......after that, one will know if it's written in the stars or time to flush and move on.......We had a retired Marine start his second career at our school;...teaching 5th or 6th grade;....he said being in the Marines was a piece of cake compared to teaching upper elementary kids!......he hung in there, and is now a principal, and , I believe ,...a good one too (rare among administrators....). You got to wish them good luck, anyways;.....Iraq;....what a mess it's turned into.......
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Oct 26, 2008 - 10:45pm PT
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I have no problem with ex military personnel becoming teachers; if they go to college, get the relevant instruction, pass the tests, get the accreditation, like the rest of us. Being in the military should not hold them back in any way.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2008 - 11:12pm PT
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I have a teaching credential FWIW.
Of course they must do student teaching. It would be madness to skip that.
Certainly a lot of education classes are BS. An accelerated program to get the basics in would be fine.
But hey, I had to take a battery of tests in subject matter and also basic stuff and constitution to get my cred and I don't see how you can excuse that. Let them study up to have the basic knowledge of what they are teaching or quit the farce of giving the rest of us a battery of expensive ass test that only 50 of college/teaching school graduates pass (and pay for the privilege)
Peace
Karl
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2008 - 11:35pm PT
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Jaybro,
I couldn't agree more with everything you just wrote.
Virtual high five---> =)/*\(=
Karl, thanks for the insight. Accelerated program, sure. Student teaching, absolutely. Dessert without finishing your dinner? Not so much...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 27, 2008 - 12:02am PT
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First of all any NCO is already a teacher.
I've been thru the classes to clear a credential and 80% of it was political indoctrination to make sure you prayed to the correct political gods. (CSLA). The content relevant to real teaching any NCO already has had at some point.
The best thing that could happen to our educational system would be an influx of bright motivated people that haven't been poisoned by the the education establishment.
I doubt it will happen though.
BTW anyone know which group has the highest percentage of Masters and PHDs outside of academia?
Yep, it's the military. Medicine and the pharmacutical industry is third, silicon valley fourth.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2008 - 12:19am PT
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"poisoned by the the education establishment."
...You mean like, parents, state, and federal laws, and all that jazz?
How is an NCO already a teacher? In the era of NCLB, what makes then "highly qualified" to teach?
I'm really curious. Are there two standards for teachers: one for civillians, and one for retired military? How does that work?
I understand about how one might feel, or think things should be, but what about the nuts and bolts. How does it work in reality...between school districts...in compliance with state and federal laws. Connect the dots for me here. Please.
BTW, medicine, pharmecuticals, and high-tec are not the same as teaching, that is why they have different names.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 27, 2008 - 12:21am PT
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The actual requirements of the program do NOT simply waive all of the "requirements to be a teacher." What it does is fast track officers into teaching positions and allow them to tick off some requirements up to a year or two after they actually start teaching.
We need teachers and we need jobs for our retiring vets who have experience leading teenagers, especially ones from rough neighborhoods and underprivileged communities. So long as it's done properly I think it's a great idea.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2008 - 12:47am PT
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DJ, After the time of service requirements are met, the only requirements to go directly to the classroom are either: 1) a baccalaureate or advanced degree, or 2) the equivalent of one year of college courses and six years of vocational training...that's it.
From the outset, that is far less than the requirements for any other person wishing to become a teacher, so yes, they do waive the requirements and put you right in the classroom.
Ya know, it's the, "get you in the classroom for a couple of years while you figure out what you are doing" thing that doesn't jive with me. Any military person would know, there is a process: you work your way up through the ranks.
Putting someone in the classroom with no teaching experience, and no background pedagogical knowledge...I wouldn't wish that on anyone, and I think it is a unacceptable arrangement for public schools.
First things first: get certified, then teach. Do it on the taxpayer's dime, but do it right.
Obviously we need teachers, and retired soldiers/officers need a new career, but you can't put the cart before the horse.
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