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| Messages 1 - 19 of total 19 in this topic |
BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 16, 2019 - 07:31pm PT
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Saw this article on Rock and Ice by Bill Wright where he advocates using some sort of rope locking device like a Petzl Micro Traxion between the leader and the second hopefully to keep the leader from being pulled off the rock if the second falls.
https://rockandice.com/opinion/average-speed-playing-the-game/
My question for SuperTopo members is can you actually put one of those devices in the system and take enough slack out of the anchoring system so that the leader won't feel some downward pull if the second falls?
Personally, I don't think you can take out all the slack in the anchoring system (not the rope) and even in the best case scenario there will be at least about 1 foot of downward pull which could easily pull the leader off an insecure stance/position.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:22pm PT
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In my opinion simulclimbing is insanity. But that's just elderly me.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Apr 16, 2019 - 11:59pm PT
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In all my experiences simul-climbing which have been many has been a situation where the rope ran out 30 ft from a proper belay and you just simul-climb. We never had a "device".
But we never intentionally simul climbed, it just happened. And we were conscious of the severity of what we were doing. But we climbed fast to beat T-Storms etc. There is an art to rope handling and gear where simul climbing is rarely needed.
We sometimes had a small pack with us and if the situation came up you would release the bag to the leader so that the second was unencumbered. I can think of the Diamond and the Black.
Again it was circumstantial.
S....
Let me make clear it was dangerous and not recommended.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 17, 2019 - 12:14am PT
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Its more to keep the leader from being pulled into the last piece they placed. She would be sucked right in to the biner, there may be no rope out to stretch and absorb that force, and the rope may break.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 17, 2019 - 12:36am PT
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In my opinion simulclimbing is insanity. Ditto
I used to free solo, and I trusted my partners completely, but simulclimbing was waaaay outside of my envelope, even when I was a dumb invincible kid.
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seano
Mountain climber
none
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Apr 17, 2019 - 12:30pm PT
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In my opinion simulclimbing is insanity. Ditto. At best, it's a small chance of the helicopter hauling you out in a stretcher instead of a body bag. Just imagine what will happen when either climber falls when you have 30m of rope and a couple of pieces between you.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2019 - 04:19pm PT
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In an attempt to get this thread back on topic, please give the link a read and see if placing Petzl Micro Traxion style devices between the leader and the second can actually make it safer and, in practice, keep the leader from being pulled off if the second falls.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 17, 2019 - 04:24pm PT
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Here we see George Abraham first using a rope in the British Isles in the late 1800s. Later he acknowledged what they were doing was insanity. Unfortunately their initial attempts at belaying were scary.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Apr 17, 2019 - 04:56pm PT
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I'm not sure about an "average" climber employing speed climbing techniques. An average climber has average fitness, average skills and average muscle memory because he or she spends an average amount of time on the rock.
I've trained many carpenters the skills to frame high up on a roof, working with dangerous tools. You never ever teach speed. You teach them to be clean, precise, efficient and methodical- the speed comes later through focused repetition and as a result of the combined skills and NOT at the expense of safety.
Wikipedia on Motor skills:
Motor learning is a change, resulting from practice. It often involves improving the accuracy of movements both simple and complex as one's environment changes. Motor learning is a relatively permanent skill as the capability to respond appropriately is acquired and retained.[13]
The stages of motor learning are the cognitive phase, the associative phase, and the autonomous phase.
Cognitive phase When a learner is new to a specific task, the primary thought process starts with, "What needs to be done?" Considerable cognitive activity is required so that the learner can determine appropriate strategies to adequately reflect the desired goal. Good strategies are retained and inefficient strategies are discarded. The performance is greatly improved in a short amount of time.
Associative phase The learner has determined the most-effective way to do the task and starts to make subtle adjustments in performance. Improvements are more gradual and movements become more consistent. This phase can last for a long time. The skills in this phase are fluent, efficient, and aesthetically pleasing.
Autonomous phase This phase may take several months to years to reach. The phase is dubbed "autonomous" because the performer can now "automatically" complete the task without having to pay any attention to performing it. Examples include walking and talking or sight reading while doing simple arithmetic.
And regarding the question: If the piece is bomber and not extended and a little communication is made about impending cruxes, I would think a microtrax or microsender would be an obvious benefit to the system.
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Burnin' Oil
Trad climber
CA
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Apr 17, 2019 - 05:06pm PT
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In answer to the original question: probably. Unless there was no slack in the rope at the moment the follower fell, which is unlikely and is entirely within the leader's control.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 17, 2019 - 06:37pm PT
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There is nothing wrong with climbing easy, going slow and enjoying the view.
Sure, but ...
Not everyone climbs like a snail .....
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 17, 2019 - 07:49pm PT
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Sometimes adding gear and complexity to a system makes it more dangerous, not safer. IMHO if you need to add a self belay device when simul climbing, you have no business simul climbing
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 17, 2019 - 09:15pm PT
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Group free solo.
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JayDee
climber
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Apr 18, 2019 - 12:18am PT
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So many opinions and so little actual info (or experience?). I have the impression it's a bit too black and white without any grey.
I've done a couple of easy (5.9-5.10) multipitch climbs while simul climbing big blocks using a PCD (Kong Duck in my case).
One example is the Snoopy direct in Ailefroide (I'm European), a 10 pitch route (~1000 foot?) climbed in 2-3 blocks in about 1h. My climbs were always bolted so we could clip the duck directly to a belay or bolt (little extension). Only draws were needed so we could take a little more of them without skipping too many bolts. A leader fall wouldn't be very different to a normal leader fall while pitching the climb. A follower fall would be blocked by the duck (tested and works well as long as the follower has no slack in the system!).
I only did this with good friends who are capable enough to understand the situation and have enough margin at the grade to enjoy it. The blocks were roughly determined beforehand so the follower was on a classic belay at the crux (upper 5.10/lower 5.11).
The main goal was not speed, but enjoying the movement and continuity without all the faffing around and waiting while belaying. Similar to some free soloing but with way less risk or like bouldering a circuit in Fontainebleau (without crashpad). Definitely not suitable for everybody (I wouldn't simul with my wife) or every climb, but in the right circumstances and with some forethought it's very fun to do a lot of actual climbing and getting into a flow.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Apr 18, 2019 - 10:22am PT
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Ditto. At best, it's a small chance of the helicopter hauling you out in a stretcher instead of a body bag. Just imagine what will happen when either climber falls when you have 30m of rope and a couple of pieces between you.
I'm not sure what would happen. But I am quite sure what would happen if you and your partner were soloing an easy section and somebody fell.
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deschamps
Gym climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Apr 18, 2019 - 02:08pm PT
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The answer to the original question is "it depends." I like to use a Kong Duck between a leader and a 2nd so that the leader won't get pulled off by a falling 2nd.
It depends on
* how much rope is out between the Duck and the leader. With a decent amount of rope the leader won't feel much at all due to rope stretch.
* the distance between the Duck and the bolt/piece that it is on. the shorter the better.
* the terrain that the leader is on. It shouldn't be hard enough that the leader will be easily plucked off by a bit of a pull down.
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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Apr 18, 2019 - 03:15pm PT
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My question for SuperTopo members is can you actually put one of those devices in the system and take enough slack out of the anchoring system so that the leader won't feel some downward pull if the second falls? I don't do a lot of simul climbing, but when I do, I clip the device (micro trax or Ropeman II) directly to bolt (yes, I seek out bolt for it) with a lightweight locker. Rope drag is not an issue because a reasonable simul climb should not involve close gear placements in the first place.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2019 - 06:07pm PT
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When you're doing this sh!t you DON"T fall period.
If you're thinking safety than you're NOT speed climbing.
Then you're only climbing at whatever pace you do .....
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