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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 25, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
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This is a reactionary thread and I may regret posting it. I haven't launched a topic in a long time but this one.....well, I do need help to understand what's up.
Just how do we "lose track" of family and/or friends?
So many people dying lately, not a surprise since we all die sooner or later, but read a post tonight where the family of a climber here around the campfire has recently died and not been in touch with family and they have not been in touch with him for many, many years. How does this happen? We are joined to one another. Whether we love and hug or feel bitterness from the past, alienation, hurt, misunderstanding, whatever, there remains a relationship of some sort.
How can we, what makes us, decide to toss people, or even ease people, out of our lives?
Sounds good when James Taylor encourages us to shower the people we love with love. It's easy to love those that are nice to us and care.
Who sings about loving thru? Loving when the relationship needs bridges of time to promote love, healing and many times forgiveness.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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May 25, 2018 - 07:40pm PT
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I’m out here a thousand miles from my home
Walkin’ a road other men have gone down
I’m seein’ your world of people and things
Your paupers and peasants and princes and kings
Hey, hey, Woody Guthrie, I wrote you a song
’Bout a funny ol’ world that’s a-comin’ along
Seems sick an’ it’s hungry, it’s tired an’ it’s torn
It looks like it’s a-dyin’ an’ it’s hardly been born
Hey, Woody Guthrie, but I know that you know
All the things that I’m a-sayin’ an’ a-many times more
I’m a-singin’ you the song, but I can’t sing enough
’Cause there’s not many men that done the things that you’ve done
Here’s to Cisco an’ Sonny an’ Leadbelly too
An’ to all the good people that traveled with you
Here’s to the hearts and the hands of the men
That come with the dust and are gone with the wind
I’m a-leavin’ tomorrow, but I could leave today
Somewhere down the road someday
The very last thing that I’d want to do
Is to say I’ve been hittin’ some hard travelin’ too
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Zay
climber
Monterey, Ca
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May 25, 2018 - 07:48pm PT
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I find myself horribly guilty of saying, "Tomorrow, maybe I'll call 'em tomorrow..."
:(
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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May 25, 2018 - 07:48pm PT
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It is difficult to judge a person's decisions when we haven't had to live as that person. Even with full knowledge it is difficult to and perhaps pointless to judge.
Sometimes people feel safer/happier/better choosing whom to define as their family than accepting that which they had no choice about. Sometimes they feel afraid or unsafe or are tired of old patterns, of getting hurt... sometimes they are guilty, ashamed of what they have done or will do... or in some other way their perception may be distorted about who are the people that do and don't care about them, who will come through as family in spite of whatever water flows under the bridge.
Basically, we all have to play the hands we are dealt, and decide for ourselves what is the best way to honor and love the different people in our lives while living the lives we want for ourselves.
Edit: That was a pretty antiseptic response, but I'll make it a bit more personal and give one specific scenario. Sometimes the most loving choice that you can make for the people you care about in your life sows the seeds for estrangement. Both sides can feel hurt in each relationship, but perhaps that hurt is better than the alternative. I spent years living day-to-day in an unhealthy marriage, trying everything I could to make it work. Ultimately I left when I figured out that my kids would be worse off if I stayed with their mother than if I left. The fall-out/vengeance that came in response to that decision led to a few years of misery for me, but it's my kids who have been paying and will continue to pay the bigger price.
I didn't choose to leave my kids, but my ex invested her considerable intellect and emotional manipulative skill and financial resources to enforce her judgment: "you left me so you left the kids too." At times- probably still now too- I've had a difficult time partitioning away the emotional issues I have with the mom from the unwitting children who have been used in the power struggle. Maybe after years of dealing with this stuff, I see echoes of it when it is not even there any more. Neither of my kids has the emotional closeness or trust in me that they would have had in an alternate world where I was not in conflict with their mom. Then again, it could have been a lot worse and by leaving I actually created the possibility to have real relationships with them not completely regulated by my ex. I will always be open to having a close relationship with my kids, but I wouldn't bet much money on how close they will be to me after they are adults and make their own choices. At least that's how it seems now in the midst of the teen years. Maybe they will have more perspective when they are older and figure out what happened. Maybe not. From my selfish perspective, I am saddened and frustrated by that, but from their perspective, I think it is even more sad. But I understand and accept that according to the emotional reality they have lived, not being close to me may seem like the more reasonable and safe choice.
So I just take it day by day and learn how to have less expectations, and who knows a decade or two from now, what their relationship with me will mean to them. Ironically, this process has brought me closer to understanding my dad and his estrangement from me in my childhood, and I am closer to him the last few years, in my 40s, than I ever have been. But I will always be there for my kids, whether or not that seems like an option they want to avail themselves of at whatever stage of life they are in.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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May 25, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
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Lynne, most of the climbers I know are fairly well connected to their families. However small, you will find a sampling of "all sorts" among the climbing population.
Jon
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bajaandy
climber
Escondido, CA
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May 25, 2018 - 08:31pm PT
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Lynne, you're letting your compassion for humanity show through again! Would any of us be surprised?
But you pose a valid and difficult question. I do not have the answer. What makes some of us drift away, and yet when the planets align and we drift back though another's orbit we're suddenly drawn back in, all time between forgot, and love and laughter and friendships deepen? But family is a tricky proposition: We don't always have the luxury to choose it, for most usually it chooses us.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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May 25, 2018 - 08:35pm PT
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Time, geographical movement and living in a world that rarely lets us stand still long enough to do it.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 25, 2018 - 08:37pm PT
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Lynnie,
I don't know how someone disconnects with family, but I know that I've never intentionally disconnected with a friend or family member. Yet, I had no idea what was going on with Tom Higgins, for example, until I read about his passing. It certainly wasn't because I wanted to grow apart. Geography and time constraints did that. Now it's too late.
All of this makes me treasure the time I get to spend with the others in my life. The virtual campfire made it easier to do that. We can gripe about social media's imperfections, and it certainly can't match being physically together, but we can use them as tools to be closer, not more remote.
John
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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May 25, 2018 - 10:01pm PT
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Sometimes it's as simple a fact that some families are just a bunch of random individuals who merely happen to share the same last name.
Once of free age, they scatter to the ends of the earth and none of them have need nor desire to see any of the others.
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ChizzDizzle
Trad climber
Rocklin,CA
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May 26, 2018 - 01:26am PT
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I choose to not have a relationship with my sister because she is a bad person. And it is not because of drug use or anything like that. She is this alpha yeller picking fights cursing loud obnoxious a$$hole who from an early age I knew I was not going to want to spend a lot of time with. My dad saw this early as well and tried to guilt me into a relationship with her and I have tried but no thanks. She has threatened my wife with physical violence and when her time comes I know I will not shed many tears.
We just had our grandma pass away and I did not see or talk to her once.
Our brother is getting married in September and I doubt my wife will go. Our son is a ring bearer so he and I will go and avoid any contact with her. My brother and his fiancee know about our feelings for each other and have placed us in separate areas of the reception. I would like to go and have a good time but feel I must be on guard and although I am happy for my brother and his fiancee I really do not want to go.
Like the old saying goes you can not choose your family.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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May 26, 2018 - 02:48am PT
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I distanced myself from my family when I got sober back in 1996. It started with not going home for the holidays, out of a real fear I would not be able to not drink. That fear was valid, and now almost 22 years sober, I can see that it's almost certain I would have drank if I hadn't done what I needed to do to save myself. My sober life was well worth the insult and injury my family felt at the time. I could go on about that, but to make it easy on those who can't imagine doing something like that, call me selfish; I'm okay with your inability to understand. (I do interact with them now, but even so, there is that awareness that I distanced myself at one time, and I'll never be completely forgiven for that, and reminded on a regular basis of it).
I've also been more comfortable alone for much of my entire life. It is probably an emotional "defect," according to those who study social behaviors. I would say it was a learned behavior, again one coming from a survival instinct.
Yes, there are plenty of instances in day to day life where my "instincts" have me losing out on the relationships some people look back at in life as best memories with family and friends. Rather than try to figure out "those people," thank your lucky stars glad you don't understand how it can be, but don't assume it's a cavalier uncaring about others.
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CarolKlein
Ice climber
Chamonix
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May 26, 2018 - 03:36am PT
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Sturgeon’s law: 90% of everything is crap.
Goes for what ya family and friends crank ons about.
Most family and friends are like seatbelts, trying to impose their restrictions on ya movement in some ways. Silent partners are also a lot like seatbelts.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 26, 2018 - 04:29am PT
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hey there, say, john...
this quote, of yours, sadly, does happen so much in these busy, faster, 'more expected' as to 'modern life' stuff... it is good when we can work around
it, yet, when we can't, it is good just to know that love will prevail,
when we DO get those chances...
May 25, 2018 - 08:35pm PT
Time, geographical movement and living in a world that rarely lets us stand still long enough to do it.
hopefully, may we all get more chances, :)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 26, 2018 - 05:08am PT
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911 made me realize that we can be gone at any instant. I have made an effort to not leave bad blood out there. If I have a beef or something that needs dealing with I try to get it done. that does not mean that we have to be best friends or spend time together but I try to do my part to deal with the issue so that we have peace. Unfinished business weighs you down..
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 26, 2018 - 05:09am PT
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hey there say, lynne...
hope it helps, if i take this down...
out of respect... in case too much
stuff to read, at an overwhelming time, for someone...
i will send it to you, email...
:)
edit:
i think it was good information, that i shared... just
was not sure, if i did something wrong, here...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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May 26, 2018 - 06:52am PT
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I think some people are secure enough in themselves to be okay without the social contact...Maybe there's such thing as a Loner gene...? And then there's dysfunctional family dynamics that create barriers...shit happens...I like what tradmanclimbs says...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 26, 2018 - 07:33am PT
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Lynn, obviously you didn't grow up in an abusive or neglectful or exploitative family or you wouldn't be asking this question. Please respect the fact that some of us have had extremely bad experiences with dysfunctional families that we have spent most of our adult lives trying to overcome, often with the help of counselors and analysts. An outsider has no idea what goes on sometimes behind closed doors, so please don't presume. Sometimes the only way to make a life for oneself is to be removed from the individuals who caused the abuse, neglect, or exploitation. Otherwise a person becomes just another lifelong enabler and that does no one any good. There are situations where no amount of love and understanding in the world is going to cure another person's psychological problems or defective character.
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HF
climber
I'm a Norwegian stuck in Joshua Tree
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May 26, 2018 - 09:49am PT
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eKat,
I have no idea if you know Lynne personally, I do, and in my opinion Lynne wouldn't post anything inappropriate or in poor taste (even if she tried).
Before you posted you opinion, did you consider that Lynne might refer to something (or someone) much closer to home? For the record I do not know for a fact if she is, or if she is referring to the situation of the person(s) that triggered your reaction. Perhaps her post was motivated by thoughts around the topic without any reference to a specific person or persons. It appears that there is a reference to a certain person and that person's family, and she chooses to not name them, however I have no doubt that sadly a large number of people are estranged from their families, for a variety of reasons.
Knowing Lynne, her post is certainly not intended to hurt people that have lost touch with their families, she is asking for help understanding why and how this happens. Of course the topic will be painful to people and their families, especially if they recently lost someone. It is obviously a painful topic for Lynne too.
Is your reply perhaps in bad taste?
Respectfully,
Hilde Fonda
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HF
climber
I'm a Norwegian stuck in Joshua Tree
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May 26, 2018 - 09:58am PT
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eKat,
Yes she understands, and now she has your opinion, - and mine.
Hilde Fonda
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L
climber
Just livin' the dream on the California coast
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May 26, 2018 - 10:47am PT
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This is a reactionary thread and I may regret posting it.
How can we, what makes us, decide to toss people, or even ease people, out of our lives?
Lynne--you are one of the most loving, forgiving and all around amazing people the Taco has ever produced. I mean that with all my heart.
You're also one of the luckiest...as it sounds like you were raised in a supportive family that gave you a good foundation for your experience of life.
Some of us were not that lucky.
Some of us had violent, alcoholic parents.
Some of us had physically abusive step-parents.
Some of us had emotionally abusive bi-polar siblings.
Some of us experienced a family tragedy so catastrophic, it ripped the fabric of our nuclear relationships beyond repair.
I don't believe anyone intentionally "tosses" people out of their lives...I think many people are just trying to survive the disastrous imprinting of their childhood, and distancing themselves from the source of their misery is the only way they know.
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