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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 30, 2017 - 10:23am PT
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can a brother get a map?
the fixed anchor ban kinda keeps the riffraff out and all, but....America just iznt America if a man can't drive wherever his entropy wagon will take him.
a thought:
These leaders first come to power through democratic elections and subsequently harness widespread discontent to gradually undermine institutional constraints on their rule, marginalize the opposition, and erode civil society. -Kendall-Taylor and Frantz
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couchmaster
climber
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Nov 30, 2017 - 11:07am PT
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"Bears Ears would be cut from 1.35 million acres to 201,397 acres, and Grand Staircase from nearly 1.9 million acres to 997,490 acres, according to the report."
"According to Hatch, Trump had promised him he would open the Grand Staircase monument to coal mining, which would require removal at least parts of the Kaiparowits Plateau, which contains one of the nation’s largest coal deposits."
Map to follow later.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 30, 2017 - 11:29am PT
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shit man them's tar sands in that canyonlands too, and real shallow. more than a whole ayrabia's worth just gotta tear out that Wingate overburden. we got plenny of water in the Coloradee for to mine it all.
good jobs too
to the tune of:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 30, 2017 - 12:46pm PT
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Expect a lawsuit. Trump doesn't have any legal authority to alter designations. The relevant piece of legislation, the Antiquities Act of 1906, only gives the president the authority to "designate" monuments. It does not grant any authority to alter or reduce prior designations. Not that this president or the current crop of Republicans care. It is clear that they believe the Judicial branch, though an equal branch of government, should be subservient to the Executive and Legislative branches, hence their current plan to stack the courts with unqualified, republican tools recommended by the Federalist Society.
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Don Paul
Mountain climber
Denver CO
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Nov 30, 2017 - 01:30pm PT
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^ fatdad with all respect, I am doubtful of that legal argument. It's something that could be researched, but it seems to me that the power to designate is the power to un-designate. Presidents often overrule the executive orders of the previous president, and make a show of it.
I went to both of these places in the last year or so. I wouldn't go back to Bears Ears, but Escalante / Grand Staircase is an incredible wilderness you should visit before it gets developed.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 30, 2017 - 01:55pm PT
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Don, there was an interesting law review article that discussed the issue (103 Virginia Law Review Online 55(2017)). There have been cases in the fed courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court, challenging the establishment of monuments and parks, where the court sided with the broad, creation language of the Act. I understand that good attorneys can gain traction with all kinds of interesting arguments, but there appears to be no precedent for what Trump is proposing.
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bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
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Nov 30, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
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just another turd-in-a-bag thread
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Nov 30, 2017 - 03:57pm PT
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It won't happen. . .at least for a good while.
It will be tied up in court for a good long time, maybe going
all the way to the Supreme Court to decide the issue.
Get your popcorn. . .
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cornel
climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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Nov 30, 2017 - 04:08pm PT
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Just more playing to his ever shrinking base. The Insane Clown President... anointed leader of the Black Cavalry of American Commerce.. hopefully The Environmental Defense Fund is up to the task
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nov 30, 2017 - 05:28pm PT
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Not worried about the threat to cut. Lawsuits will be filed. Twimpy is just stirring sh#t up.
Focus on the real deal, tax cuts for the ultra wealthy and S-corps to the detriment of the national debt which will require the next administration (not likely GOP) to have to raise taxes and look like the bad guy for all prior administrations that have been spending willy and wildly!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Bear's Ears was actually pretty close in size to the Public Lands Initiative proposal that was created by by Utah GOP representatives.
https://medium.com/westwise/in-defense-of-bears-ears-national-monument-eb896127ded0
Bears Ears specifically excluded some potential uranium mining areas.
Basically this is largely being done because some on the far right didn't like anything that Obama did, and now want to undo it.
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Climberdude
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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^^^^ Yes, it seems that some in the right wing have a list of every action that Obama took that they want to reverse. This is not going to happen. Lawsuits will stop this and if there is any action, there will be mass occupations and lockdowns to stop any action. The Dump admin is so full of shit!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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And Jody, seems to me I recall you being a pretty good photographer, and that I really liked some of your photos of the east side of the Sierras. How would you feel if there was a bunch of oil and gas rigs, and perhaps an open pit mine or two that popped up in some of those?
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Mungeclimber for the win. The tax shell game Repubs now breathlessly ramming through will create even more red ink but will conveniently be left to the next Demo majority to fix. Always nice to know grownups will arrive to clean up after you...
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Basically this is largely being done because some on the far right didn't like anything that Obama did, and now want to undo it. Exactly. While the right was referred to as the "party of no" during the Obama presidency because of their constant opposition to any democrat-sponsored piece of legislation, etc., it has since become pretty clear they have no agenda other than opposing or, now, undoing anything touched by Obama, regardless of its merit or benefit to the American public.
I also agree with munge. There has been so much distraction created by Trump's inane tweets and statements that it has diverted a good many away from the destruction to environmental regulations, the EPA, and now the tax code. We now have a government of the rich, by the rich and for the rich.
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Don Paul
Mountain climber
Denver CO
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Fatdad, thanks for looking up the citation for me to the UVA Law Review Article. Presidents Lack the Authority to Abolish or Diminish National Monuments It's an extremely archaic subject and maybe the author is right.
Here's the Congressional Research Service analysis, that suggests it's really an open question that could go either way:
No President has ever abolished or revoked a national monument proclamation, so the existence or scope of any such authority has
not been tested in courts. However, some legal analyses since at least the 1930s have concluded that the Antiquities Act, by its terms, does not authorize the President to repeal proclamations, and that the President also lacks implied authority to do so. Under this view, once a President has applied the Antiquities Act to protect objects of historic or scientific interest, only Congress can undo that protection. On the other hand, Presidents have deleted acres from national monuments, proclaiming that the deleted acres do not meet the Antiquities Act’s standard that the protected area be the “smallest area compatible with the proper care and management of the objects to be protected.”
I would be particularly concerned about the "smallest area" language noted by CRS:
After their establishment by a President, national monuments often have been expanded or reduced over time by subsequent Presidents, or within the same administration. For example, Bandelier National Monument in New Mexico was established by President Woodrow Wilson in 1916 and was later expanded by Presidents Herbert Hoover and Dwight Eisenhower. President John F. Kennedy later issued a proclamation adding 2,882 acres and removing 3,925 other acres from the monument. President Kennedy cited the Antiquities Act as authority, declaring that “it appears that it would be in the public interest to add [the 2,882-acres] to the Bandelier National Monument because they possess unusual scenic character together with geologic and topographic features, the preservation of which would implement the purposes of such monument,” and that “it appears that it would be in the public interest to exclude from the detached Otowi section of the monument approximately 3,925 acres of land containing limited archeological values which have been fully researched and are not needed to complete the interpretive story of the Bandelier National Monument....” As another example, the former Mount Olympus National Monument was diminished in acreage three times after its establishment—including once by nearly half—before it was ultimately redesignated by Congress as a national park in 1938.
Antiquities Act authority to add new acres to national monuments appears analogous to the authority to create monuments in the first place; however, diminishment of national monuments potentially may raise distinct issues. While the Antiquities Act does not expressly address changes in the size of national monuments, it does contain a provision governing monument size: reservations of land for monuments “shall be confined to the smallest area compatible with the proper care and management of the objects to be protected.” At least one analyst has contended that the same logic cited above against presidential abolishment of national monuments should also prohibit presidential modification of national monuments to diminish their size. However, the 1938 Attorney General opinion discussed above contemplates reduction of monuments in size pursuant to the “smallest area” language:
While the President from time to time has diminished the area of national monuments established under the Antiquities Act by removing or excluding lands therefrom, under that part of the act which provides that the limits of the monuments “in all cases shall be confined to the smallest area compatible with the proper care and management of the objects to be protected,” it does not follow from his power so to confine that area that he has the power to abolish a monument entirely.
Thus, despite some potential ambiguity in the phrasing of the Antiquities Act, there is precedent for Presidents to reduce the size of national monuments by proclamation. Such actions are presumably based on the determination that the areas to be excluded represent the President’s judgment as to “the smallest area compatible with the proper care and management of the objects to be protected.” It remains undetermined whether removal of a high enough proportion of a monument’s acreage could be viewed as effectively amounting to an abolishment of the monument.
That reminds me. Someone was posting on another thread about his archeological trips to Bears Ears. One good argument would be to find sites that are in the areas to be eliminated, and point them out as among the "objects to be protected." In the Bandelier case, JFK eliminated parts that had already been studied and did not contribute to the overall narrative. So, more or less, the case has to be made for the value of the areas to be eliminated.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Obama setting aside millions of acres as he did adversely affected far more people than Trump cutting the acreage down a bit will.
more talk radio/faux news spiel.
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