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c wilmot
climber
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Jan 23, 2017 - 10:47am PT
Did Obama did not realize this would happen as he used executive orders to put more land in control of the Feds with a republican controlled house And senate? Of course he did. Good cop Obama handed the keys over to bad cop trump.
The antiquities act simply needs to be amended and poof- all the land Obama "saved" while not even attempting to work with the house and senate to fund such acquisitions can be put up for sale.
The parties are working together alright. Predictably screwing over Americans
It would be an entertaining show if it wasn't so tragic
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Obama working with the House? Like they'd ever work with him. They never worked with him. Also, this is about those designations since 1996, not just those made by Obama.
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dirtbag
climber
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Thanks Scott. I've been calling Secretary Zinke, too.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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It appears Canyons of the Ancients in western Cowlowrado will be one
that's on the hit list, according to today's Denver Post. . .
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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I'm a pretty simple person, but even I can see beyond the words.....oil, timber and development. God help us. We only have this one earth. Once the birthright is squandered away it can't be recovered.
Perhaps someone can write a letter addressing the issues and we can email it to everyone we know and flood the White House with public comment. I really don't know enough about specific issues to write such a document. Or is there such a letter out there already?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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I wonder how many "land grab" internet and a.m. radio ragers could even say how designation of their local monument makes a difference from how the land was previously managed?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I posted on the MP thread that the request for public comments is an empty gesture. This administration has shown that they do not care what the public thinks, especially of it's conservation. They really don't even care what the law is, Trump just does what he wants to do unless the courts or some other force intervenes.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I don't presume to guess what the motive of the administration is, nor any use they may put the comments to.
Public comment periods are for public comments, if you wish to make one you should. These comment periods are opportunities for the various user communities to be heard. Climbers, as a group, tend not to take advantage of these opportunities. At least one of these monuments contains a major international climbing area... the comments of climbers would seem to be relevant to the review if only because many climbers have actually been in the monument and know it from first hand experience.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Did Obama did not realize this would happen as he used executive orders to put more land in control of the Feds with a republican controlled house And senate? Of course he did. Good cop Obama handed the keys over to bad cop trump.
The antiquities act simply needs to be amended and poof- all the land Obama "saved" while not even attempting to work with the house and senate to fund such acquisitions can be put up for sale.
Typical GOP alt-facts. As I've challenged before, name ONE ACRE that has been captured by federal control using the antiquities act!
This is simply a reclassification of what ALREADY EXISTING federal land can be used for, and it's level of protection.
And if it is so easy to reverse, how come it has not happened ONCE in the last century, since we've had the Antiquities Act?
But don't worry, Trump will save us from the actions of those radicals, the Bushs.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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I posted on the MP thread that the request for public comments is an empty gesture. This administration has shown that they do not care what the public thinks, especially of it's conservation. They really don't even care what the law is, Trump just does what he wants to do unless the courts or some other force intervenes.
This is not true. The GOP has taken many actions in the last 90 days, in reaction to public reaction. The first public insurance bill.....GOP opposition was largely due to constituent outrage at townhall meetings.
Trump may not give a sh*t, but Senators and Congressmen need to get re-elected, and are much more sensitive to public concerns.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Perhaps someone can write a letter addressing the issues and we can email it to everyone we know and flood the White House with public comment.
trump doesn't give a damn about people's comments. Not even those of his supporters.
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c wilmot
climber
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Ken m- Katahdin Woods and Waters National Monument
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Some of the reasons that the locals bitch, that the areas are mineral-rich, is a total snow job. It is a terrible area for coal or oil and gas production. I've never heard of any significant exploration, but you run into well casing on dry holes here and there.
There has been drilling in the areas around Canyonlands National Park for decades, with little success. Other than the fields close to 4 corners, the only successful drilling that I know of took place on the road to Deadhorse Point. That reservoir is very difficult to produce from. I think that there are only 2 wells. There were only 2 the last time I went through there. I know that the area around Moab has been seeing some recent 3D seismic acquisition, but never down around the Bears Ears area.
There are pretty much no significant fossil fuel reserves in either Escalante or Bears Ears. I've heard that there is some coal in Escalante, but it was too thin to be mined. They had over a hundred years to try to mine the area, but it isn't economic. Part of my job is dealing with coal beds. They are good stratigraphic markers. The vast majority of coal beds are less than 2 feet thick. Not enough to be profitable for very long. I work with the NE Oklahoma coals on a daily basis. There are over 25 coal horizons that outcrop in NE OK, and only a few of them were ever strip mined. These days, only the single thickest one, about 7-10 feet thick is still being mined. It is high sulfur, so it isn't worth much. Nothing can compete with the ultra thick Fort Union coals in Wyoming. It takes about ten feet of peat to make one foot of coal, so beds greater than 10 feet are rare. The Fort Union coals are dozens of feet thick. They are also low in Sulfur, and, despite having a lower BTU value than the Appalachian coals, they are much cleaner, so power plants use that Wyoming coal. Unfortunately, the Appalachian coals are also usually high in sulfur.
The only use that takes place is four wheeling, hunting, cattle ranching, and very little of that. It takes a ton of that country to run a single cow compared to the areas to the east where cattle are grown by the millions. It is a crappy place to ranch. Also, people cut firewood in areas where it has been permitted.
Well now. Let's see how the new monument will affect ANY of those activities (from their website):
**Will hunting, fishing, and outfitting
continue?**
Yes. Hunting, fishing and outfitting are popular and important activities for local communities and for recreation-oriented small businesses. The Forest Service and BLM will continue to apply the laws, regulations and policies currently used in issuing and administering permits on public lands in the national monument, consistent with the proper care and management of the national monument. The monument does not change the State of Utah’s jurisdiction as it relates to fish and wildlife management.
**Will grazing and timber management
continue?**
Yes. Currently, livestock grazing occurs throughout most of the monument area including nine active Forest Service allotments. Existing laws, regulations and policies followed by the Forest Service and BLM in issuing and administering grazing permits or leases shall continue to apply to ensure ongoing consistency with the monument. Likewise, timber management,
including for purposes of restoration and forest health, will continue
pursuant to existing laws, regulations and policies, consistent with the proper care and management of the national monument.
The Arctic National Wildlife Refuge also allows most uses. You can land a bush plane in the part that is designated Wilderness, you can run your snow machine anywhere you like, hunting is allowed (and popular for sheep).
These are not like parks. They just protect the resource, which in this case is all of the ruins. Grand Gulch is filled with ruins, and there are a lot in Dark Canyon as well. It really doesn't sound like much will change. Those sites have always been protected. Pot hunters go to jail these days.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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As to why Trump is doing this, it is because some western states resent the fact that huge portions of their states are owned by the federal government.
Nobody homesteaded the area, and now that homesteading is over, the land just sits there. You can get a grazing permit, you can drill or mine. You can use that land in almost anyway that you want.
It isn't that much of a hassle to get an oil and gas lease from the BLM. There are a few more hoops to go through, but not many. Nothing that we don't do anyway in the normal course of drilling.
There are plenty of people in the west who really resent the federal ownership of all of that desert and national forest. They aren't hikers or outdoorsmen. I don't know what would really change if it was in private hands. Grazing leases are probably less expensive than property taxes would be because it takes so much land to run a cow out there.
They are kind of in the same mindset that that Cliven Bundy character was. He acted like he owned all of that land that he was grazing his cattle on. The BLM must have been pretty darn cooperative to let him continue grazing without paying his grazing fees for so long.
The people in Blanding seem to have the same feelings.
I can see how it might be a good deal if the feds allowed some homesteading to take place again. I wish that it still was legal in Alaska.
Other than that, the land isn't arable, and isn't of much use.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Fat Dad - I generally share your skepticism but this is not meaningless, but part of a legal process called 'notice and comment.' The agency *must* take public comments into account in its rule making for certain things. Those decision are reviewable in Federal Court where the Trump administration rarely wins. I like to write legal arguments and identify myself as a lawyer, but any show of support would help, like the photos you took of your family vacationing there, or something like that.
I don't know enough about this review to make an intelligent comment yet. No cows in Bears Ears! That part I understood. But in general I would prefer to have all these places under the control of the Forest Service and BLM, which do a much better job protecting them than the NPS. On the other hand, if the idea is to turn them over to the states, that would be bad news for sure.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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PS - that reminds me. Did you know that atomic fracking was invented in Rifle, CO? There is a thing sort of like a monument there, although its really a radiation warning sign.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
^ Just noticed in my youtube playlist, it's recommending The 1950s Atom Soldier, should be required high school curriculum.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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National Monuments can be managed by the Forest Service or three other agencies- NPS, BLM or the F&WS.
Also, public comment is important to help support APA, NEPA and other bases of litigation. Which is obviously where this is headed!
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