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Valerio
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 24, 2016 - 02:31am PT
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You are a very strong and determined, and you have all my respect...
BUT...
Three simple rules such as the three laws of robotics.
1) you must use the kind of gear used on the FA (beaks, heads, pitons, cams, taped hooks and so on) you are lucky because you can use the pins scars (which they are actually artificial holds) where to put your strong fingers... and this is already a big deal... isn’t it?
2) you can not add any bolts or rivets
3) you can not open any variants ... climb the possible pitches in free and use the aid climbing for the others ... (be patience my friend, perhaps someone will come after you, that sooner or later we will succeed). The new variants are and will remain variants ... personal creations that are not part of the original route.
It seems to me that two bolts were added to the pitch 14th on the free “Dawn Wall” where there is already a Reticent wall pitch. I remember that on that traverse to the right there was just a poor rivet and scary hooks and heads.
hey guys don't blame me… these are just personal opinions.
ciao
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2016 - 03:17am PT
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whatever.... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.. the aid team aided it. free trumps aid just like paper covers rock and rock breaks sicsors... simple sh#t that has been established a long time ago...
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 24, 2016 - 05:51am PT
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free trumps
Says it.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Nov 24, 2016 - 08:23am PT
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El Cap is becoming the Mount Everest of sport climbing.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 24, 2016 - 08:59am PT
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as I will never climb 5.14 I can't remark on the recent developments on the Dawn Wall.
However, in other cases, an aid route going free is a sort of artifice that depends on the existence of the aid route, and the possibility of a climber following that route and figuring out the free moves.
Had the route been done free originally, it is likely that it would have followed a different path. In particular, early aid routes eschewed the placement of bolts and sought out features where temporary anchors could be used. Modern bolting ethic, and technology, opens up more free route possibility.
So while I agree that modifying aid routes (in particular, reengineering them, but also finding free variants that use new anchors) may not be the best style if one wants to claim "freeing an aid route," finding a free passage may have resulted in quite a different route.
In a future where these routes are more frequently done, better quality free variants departing from the aid route will be found, and done. One wonders at our impatience at putting up routes in less than good style on these wonderful walls, but also worries of a future of grid bolting them to accommodate the fashions-of-the-time.
The analogy of El Cap becoming the "Everest of Sport Climbing" is stingingly apt.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 24, 2016 - 10:31am PT
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Aid climbers are continually in denial, because the individual impact is so small.
I think it isn't just aid climbers who are in denial regarding individual impacts...
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Nov 24, 2016 - 10:42am PT
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Forget all the old gear. You can never replicate the zeitgeist. Climb in your own temporal zone.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 24, 2016 - 06:44pm PT
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I think it isn't just aid climbers who are in denial regarding individual impacts...
Free soloers are the most aware of individual impact.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 24, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
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It helps if each person answers three questions.
1. Why do I climb?
2. What will I refuse to do?
3. What am I willing to do?
The answer to question one limits possible answers to the subsequent questions.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Nov 24, 2016 - 10:12pm PT
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I don't know who is damaging the rock more, but designating el Cap as the new forefront of hard climbing sounds like you are asking for a population explosion in a place that is already overcrowded. When I climbed the nose decades ago I was scared sh'tless - el Cap seemed to be the size of the ocean. I really did feel "alone on the wall" even though there were other parties all over el Cap. I hope it can retain that character, regardless of the style people are using.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Nov 24, 2016 - 10:21pm PT
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Valerio:
rule 1: i suspect your three rules are actually only two rules as methinks rule 1 is just a different way of trying to state rule 2. or at least i'm presuming you don't really care whether someone uses a cam where someone else uses a piton, and so your only real concern with rule 1 is that people not bolt or rivet. if so rule 1 is redundant.
rule 2: this one is too situational to be quite so black and white. if an aid climb has 40 holes drilled on its first ascent and then a free ascensionist comes along and drills two more instead of using a couple of broken off heads, is that really a bad thing? seems pretty dubious. i'd personally probably go along with something more like "free climbers should minimize the addition of new holes to existing aid climbs and should use them only as a last resort and only when previous aid climbing continues to rely on "unclean" protection [pins, heads, etc]"
rule 3: this is just goofy. people are gonna climb yo. and if somebody finds a free variation that goes around a blank walled rivet ladder then good on 'em... goofy history fades away, as it should. and aid climbing has a lot of goofy climbing...
respect for history is useful.
deification of all history leads to a frozen future...
it is also boring and goofy.
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Nov 25, 2016 - 01:24am PT
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Happy thanksgiving Brutus... A crusher without recognition! I pour drink for you and so do the Hills!
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Valerio
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2016 - 07:16am PT
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whatever works my friends... were only personal opinions...
I'm curious about your considerations on this topic also because we will have the same problems here in Orco valley in the next future.
simple man - simple things - simple life... Bruce docet
Grazie!!!
ciao
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Nov 25, 2016 - 07:42am PT
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Free soloers are the most aware of individual impact.
Bad Clinker, bad.
No-one has a sense of humor on these threads and you're not allowed to either. Bad boy.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 25, 2016 - 09:05am PT
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I disagree with almost all of your points. Aid climbing is a poor second to free climbing and is only used when climbers cannot negotiate terrain without resorting to aid.
I disagree that the late 50's and 60's were the "Golden Age" in Yosemite......the "Dawn" of Yosemite climbing would be a more appropriate term. Today, with climbs like the Dawn Wall going free is the true "Golden Age" in Yosemite.
It makes no sense to approach a free climb on El Cap in the same way you would an aid climb and that includes the type of hardware used. Keep in mind that harware is used to make progress in aid climbing and for protection in free climbing.
Why not use variants? You are trying to climb a piece of rock architecture without resorting to aid.....the aid variant by the mere fact that it was the way of the first ascentionists in no way means that it is the superior path and needs to be slavishly adhered to.
There are many aid routes on El Cap will never go free but the ones that do are, for me, superior expressions of the climbing art and should not be qualified by the way the route was first climbed using aid.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Nov 25, 2016 - 12:56pm PT
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Not seeing these pin scars you guys insist are the only things making this pitch freeable?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 25, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
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No kidding. Too many of the undemented.
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
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Jul 16, 2018 - 10:37am PT
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Resurfaced thread. OT yet "on-topic".....
Sure do miss this guy! Brutus in action....."POP!" (minute 3:50).
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Jul 16, 2018 - 05:25pm PT
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No variants!? It is very unusual for the FA team to find the entire best line. Many routes have undergone considerable evolution from the time of the FA, to the point that the original aid sections have been relegated to obscurity. Consider the NEB of Higher Cathedral Rock. Does anyone even care about the original aid sections?
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