Wingsuit Base - An Honest Question

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dirhk

Trad climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 30, 2016 - 11:29am PT
Do the people that are active in the sport:

Believe they have a relatively high chance of dying and go for it anyway?

OR

Believe they can do it safer than those who have died?
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jun 30, 2016 - 11:53am PT
Here
these two speak to it I think the Jeb Corliss, may already have succumbed? to his addiction
. . . [Click to View YouTube Video]
dikhed

climber
State of fugue and disbelief
Jun 30, 2016 - 11:55am PT
I know one thing for sure that is Roberta Mancino is super hot... oh yeah you could have asked your honest question on one of the other threads that are floating around right now.

But hey I guess it's better than politics
snakefoot

climber
Nor Cal
Jun 30, 2016 - 12:27pm PT
a short post as i am very busy working...speaking for myself and some of the people i fly with...we know there is a risk of death on every jump, but try to ensure that we are skilled enough for the jump, gear is packed right and in good condition, current in our skill set and that there are not bad conditions at the exit, along the glide path or landing area that would bring demise. These evaluations are a moving target often, as conditions can change in a second from great to horrible..... and i or my close friends do not think we are better than those who have died, we just try to learn from known errors (if possible) and hope/try to prevent some random crap or mistake that will take us out.

micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Jun 30, 2016 - 12:59pm PT
Snakefoot I appreciate your thoughtful posts on this subject. Thanks for your insights into this activity so many of us climbers are enamored by while often having no framework to comprehend.

Scott
snakefoot

climber
Nor Cal
Jun 30, 2016 - 01:04pm PT
thanks micronut, i do not consider myself an expert by any means, but have been doing this for over 7 years and have seen a couple vids on youtube (kidding). This forum needs you to do another fantastic mullet ascent and TR!
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 30, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
Snakefoot I appreciate your thoughtful posts on this subject. Thanks for your insights into this activity so many of us climbers are enamored by while often having no framework to comprehend.


Me too, your level headed post are worth reading.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 30, 2016 - 01:19pm PT
Well done video, posted to another thread, related to the OPs questions:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
snakefoot

climber
Nor Cal
Jun 30, 2016 - 01:30pm PT
thanks guyman, i try to be reasonable, though things can be challenging when the insults start flying and such. I try to set the record straight sometimes, but know that i am a limited type around here. and although i do not post climbing content anymore, i still love to climb and play in the woods like most on this forum, most of which i would gladly have a beer with or whatever the poison is, sit by the fire afterward and enjoy this incredible experience of life.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jun 30, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
I think the Jeb Corliss, may already have succumbed? to his addiction
Jeb Corliss is still alive, although he has been injured a few times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeb_Corliss
However, the experiences of one person are not particularly relevant to assessing risk for an "average" participant, whose risk level may be different.

Do the people that are active in the sport:

Believe they have a relatively high chance of dying and go for it anyway?

OR

Believe they can do it safer than those who have died?
Exactly the same "questions" could be asked of climbers. Or people who drive cars.

I've always found interesting the observation that
"most people think they are better drivers than the 'average' driver".
It's more a statement about confidence than a statistical estimate.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 30, 2016 - 05:44pm PT
Clint...it appears to me that the risk level in wingsuit flying is actually higher for "experienced" participants then for "average" ones. The urge to slice the margin of error by closer proximty flying as skill levels rise seems irresistible to some.
Alex Baker

climber
Portland
Jun 30, 2016 - 07:16pm PT
Clint - I think the answer for most climbers and car drivers is that they don't think they are going to get the chop doing those activities.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 30, 2016 - 07:20pm PT
Correct....thinking you are going to get the chop is normally reserved for sucicde bombers.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Jun 30, 2016 - 07:37pm PT
@donini, the same applies to sailplane/glider pilots. Statistically, more experienced pilots press the edges than new pilots, and with less than optimum outcomes. It isn't hubris per se, it's experience telling you that "lift" should be there, and when you've misjudged, you're usually too low to escape. IT's kind of a bitch.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jun 30, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
There's a name for it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
It's definitely a behavior that some participants will do.

As for whether experienced participants as a group have a higher risk than inexperienced folks, that would need a survey to really answer.

We see in the BASE fatality list that many of the people who died were experienced.
But we don't know the denominator (how many experienced vs. inexperienced jumpers and how many jumps for each).
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jun 30, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
questions like this are grounded in an emotionally charged and leading wording, in the vein of "when did you stop beating your wife?"

in this case, this results in part from the use of the phrase: "relatively high chance of dying"

what do those particular words objectively mean? a relatively high chance of dying compared to what? and for whom? what is relatively high? and etc.



because here are the nuts and bolts of reality that people formulating these forms of questions are often intentionally and/or unintentionally avoiding:


ie. ain't nobody getting out alive and to word questions as if wing suiters are playing with single bullet, six-shooter-like russian roulette odds [they aren't] or that the rest of us non-flying "sane" ones have relatively "miniscule" chances of dying [1.5% of non-smoking male and american 35 year olds dying in the next 10 years ain't negligible] or that everyone is facing the same risks assuming we all don't take on added external risks [we aren't] means that there is a very large grey area that is subtly [and sometimes not so subtly] being recast as far more black and white than it really is...

at the same time, this obfuscation is kind of where the whole answer to the op's question is hidden: there are never going to be black and white answers because "relatively high chance of dying" is a highly personal and situational judgement call [dependent on ones perceptions and experiences of life, death, risk, meaning, personal in/abilities and etc...] for me personally i gave up paragliding ten years ago even though i would argue [and i believe statistics bear this out] that the type of flying i was doing was far far safer than the type of skiing that i continue to do or even the driving that almost all of us do... flying, for me, just wasn't worth the risk relative to what i got from it, for me to justify to myself the potential consequences i was opening myself up to.

we're all going to die and all of this hand wringing and loaded questioning about other people's decisions is more befitting of a 1980's pmrc tipper gore or jsn nancy reagan than of climbers on a climbing board... in the words of hendrix: "I'm the one that's got to die when it's time for me to die, so let me live my life the way I want to."



while it is certainly a shame and sometimes even a "waste" when the "young" ones go, i'm far more saddened and concerned by the silent masses living lives of quiet desperation who go out with a metaphoric life long tightening noose around their neck at the by definition "mediocre" age of 78.88 years of age [for the u.s.] than i am by all of the wing suiters, alpinists, high altitude mountaineers, free soloists, psychonauts and [insert other category that in-general "society" deems unacceptable, or at least inexplicable, here] combined.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jun 30, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
Wow, Nahooo ! I've read that twice, I stopped & went back to what you said when the news here, was still raw, l am so glad you. Posted the above sentiments.
They give a clear understanding of your thoughtful consideration of a subject that
always holds my attention.
I'm not sure how this will go along with what you have just said ?



nah000

climber
no/w/here

Jun 28, 2016 - 10:21pm PT
if only life was so simple, that immediately after an accomplished man's death, we could make blanket black and white statements about a situation that none of us knows the intricacies of...

especially about the complex questions that partners loving spouses with spirits inexplicably intertwined with warrior paths and/or deep exploration, must both wrestle with regarding risk, children, what they all owe each other and so what they also owe themselves...

it's so much easier to start masturbatory threads on supertopo filled with not-so-subtle self-congratulation and overt condemnation than to shut the fUck up for at least a few moments...

good to know some of you gents have sorted all of this out, and know who should and who shouldn't have children, and what should and shouldn't be "risked" in lives where we all face death and have to accept the potential for the [apparently] random in every one of our lives, whether we actively pursue it and face it head on or not.

and so in all seriousness: a genuine fUck you to those of you who think this is the best time and the best manner to pass judgement on the recently deceased.

if you had any respect for the complexity of being human, any scope of vision that accepted the potential of a world that was anything more than a projection of your own experience you'd either delete this thread or at least not fall back on judgemental, hollow and self-congratulatory platitudes.

at least for a few moments...

I have great respect for both posts. knowing now what I do, & having the luxury of talking
It out , I think you are right on somethings .

It is the person's life, they get to do with it as they see fit. That Is the way it is. We here
Are free-er than most and mostly driven by a fierce sense to maintain & increase that
Sense of freedom, and since we get the one go'round ( at least in this conscious state, what is mind? )
those that make the most of it, thrive, pack more into 40 yrs than anyone just walking thru-
Draw our attention with the most passion.




In edit I took down, deleted, the simplistic 'just don't jump' comment, as it was disrespectful
I was Stating the obvious, no trying to be obnoxious but it read that way, my apologies.



nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jul 1, 2016 - 03:14am PT
hey Gnome...

glad you found those two posts meaningful, as they were/are heartfelt and sincere... while i don't personally have children, i have friends who do and continue to live, shall we say adventurous lives, and so i've seen the complexity and thoughtfulness of their and their spouse's [often difficult] decision making processes up close enough to know that some of how it was being characterized in the other thread on this board fails to understand the physical, emotional and spiritual, very personal realities, that all of us are dealing with and most often doing our best to reconcile... whether we have children or not...

because i felt this thread's opening post was an honestly asked question, even at the same time that, as i argued, i don't believe it is an "honest" pairing of questions, this thread got a less vitriolic response... i'll also keep reading this thread, even though i've not caught up with the other thread, as i truly wish that one had been deleted.

while it's easy to forget that behind the black words on white screens there are humans typing, and equally important reading, it is unfortunate that in a situation such as this, that we can't keep cognizant of the fact that we have the capability of being a community for each other...

and while being a community doesn't mean we have to agree with or even like each other, i do think it means that we should be able to hold off on direct or indirect judgement for at least a bit after one of our community has passed.

especially when that member, based solely on his c.v. and his most recent for me very affecting tr, lived more in his forty years than a lot of the old [and young] [and mostly] men on this board will probably live if they end up getting twice as many years.
Gunkie

Trad climber
Valles Marineris
Jul 1, 2016 - 04:18am PT
Had BASE jumping been around (more established) when I was out of undergrad and living as free as I ever was, I would have been involved, guaranteed. With that said, I'm glad access to BASE knowledge and gear was limited (pre-internet) because I'm pretty sure I'd be back to space dust by now.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 1, 2016 - 05:05am PT
Snakefoot, Clint, and nah000:
Thank you for your sane, reasonable, well-constructed responses.
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