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| Messages 1 - 18 of total 18 in this topic |
overwatch
climber
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Time to run capitol punishment up the flagpole again.
Edit;
I will admit to commenting off the title and not even looking at the links, no time now.
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Mei
Trad climber
I'm back!
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Death with Dignity. I'm all for it.
The governor’s action was condemned by Tim Rosales, a spokesman for the group Californians Against Assisted Sucide, which includes doctors, religious leaders and advocates for the disabled.
“This is a dark day for California and for the Brown legacy,” Rosales said in a statement. “As someone of wealth and access to the world's best medical care and doctors, the governor's background is very different than that of millions of Californians living in healthcare poverty without that same access -- these are the people and families potentially hurt by giving doctors the power to prescribe lethal overdoses to patients.”
I don't understand the argument. The bill, once in effect, only provides one more option to a terminally ill patient. It's still an option that the patient has whether healthy or poor. It's not like doctors will start executing people.
I'm more interested in a related matter though. I've seen Alzheimer patients live many years incurring a lot of stress to the care takers without much of joy of life to speak of. I know I personally would not want to live in that state despite a mostly-able body. However, I do not know of any country/state that can legalize the termination of someone else's life based on a predetermined level of mental decline (decided when the person was still in a healthy mental state and capable of making decisions).
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Mei: Death with Dignity. I'm all for it.
How would you feel about Dignity with Death?
Let’s not be too quick to jump on any bandwagon that encourages people to commit suicide because things are getting too difficult. None of us asked into this world; I’m not so sure that we should have the opportunity to be allowed out of it with a decision. You could say that it’s your life to do with as you please, but even if you were an atheist, I’m not sure that you could make that argument conclusively. According to society, you can’t do just anything you want with it. Your life, believe it or not, has certain responsibilities to the collective.
Secondly, why do you single out “healthy” mental states as something to be protected, and making decisions? Is that what is precious or special about life in your view? I can think of many things other than “making decisions” and so-called healthy mental states. Perhaps we should be giving out Xanax to everyone who’s having a bad day or decade.
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c wilmot
climber
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Its nice Brown signed it into law but telling he only did so because he realized it was an issue that could affect him
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Mei
Trad climber
I'm back!
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MikeL: Perhaps we should be giving out Xanax to everyone who’s having a bad day or decade. That's an irresponsible distortion of the position of the bill. Nobody is handing out anything to anybody here.
MikeL: Your life, believe it or not, has certain responsibilities to the collective. Exactly.
Just imagine a day in the future, your mind is in such a declined state that you can no longer dress yourself properly, you throw a fit at anyone around you for no reason at any time, you still have an able body so you can still walk fast, but you walk out in the middle of the night or you wonder off into a busy street and is not found for hours when your care taker turns her head away for a few minutes to discuss an important issue, you fall asleep any minute, but you stay up throughout the night threatening to sneak out into the darkness, you do not recognize anybody, even your family, but you keep wanting to go to the train station or airport to go on a journey to visit your long deceased relatives, you like to shuffle your clothes down the toilet, you like to throw your toothbrush down the toilet, and you get violent toward your care taker while all she wants is to take good care of you... If you, sitting here today, can see yourself in that state years down the road, do you think your existence in that state will be making any positive contributions to the collective? Do you think you want to impose that to anyone you love and who loves you?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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As a heathcare professional and having to watch my dad's slow decline in dementia, I fully support this.
No one in their wildest dreams thought my dad's last years would be anything but wonderful. Incredibly intelligent (an HTG "rocket scientist" for NASA & CalTech, designing guidance systems for planetary probes), health nut, caring, kind father. He had a history of a few mild concussions and a bad reaction to surgical anesthesia.
He wrote his healthcare directive with just about every contingecy imaginable, but no plans for this... I don't know how one could make a determination to what point in the slide to check out, and by the time you're incapacitated, you can't figure out how to pull the trigger.
At least he can still hug and occasionally expresses his love.
As far as this being some nefarious burden on the poor, I think it's the exact opposite: this will allow one to keep his family from spending untold tens of thousands on futile medical care, keeping the family solvent.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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I'm more interested in a related matter though. I've seen Alzheimer patients live many years incurring a lot of stress to the care takers without much of joy of life to speak of. I know I personally would not want to live in that state despite a mostly-able body. However, I do not know of any country/state that can legalize the termination of someone else's life based on a predetermined level of mental decline (decided when the person was still in a healthy mental state and capable of making decisions).
As I read the statute, an Alzheimer's patient can't avail himself of this option, nor can a paralyzed patient.
You have to be declared of sound mind and be able to assist in your own death.
So nobody is pulling the plug on grandma under this law.
It would have to be the old fashion way, something like a morphiene overdose for "pain management".
That's a lot more common than you might think.
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Norton
Social climber
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You have to be declared of sound mind and be able to assist in your own death.
So nobody is pulling the plug on grandma under this law.
correct, and my understanding is that you must also have a doctor certify that you have
a terminal illness with six months or less of life likely
good going California legislature and Governor Jerry Brown !
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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This is part 2 of the Obamacare , back door , death panels...First it was feti and grandma and next it's healthy productive Republicans that are registered to vote...
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WBraun
climber
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All the stoopid brain dead politards on this site can now sign up since they're all pretty much goners already ......
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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I already purchased my death card...got the 2 for 1 deal with my medicinal marijuana card...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Phase III - Retroactive birth control?
What a dilemma.
Kill yourself before you become too incapacitated to do it vs. let someone else (your family?) kill you later.
I think therefore I am nearly dead
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Mei: Just imagine a day in the future, your mind is in such a declined state that you can no longer dress yourself properly, you throw a fit at anyone around you for no reason at any time, you still have an able body so you can still walk fast, but you walk out in the middle of the night or you wonder off into a busy street and is not found for hours when your care taker turns her head away for a few minutes to discuss an important issue, you fall asleep any minute, but you stay up throughout the night threatening to sneak out into the darkness, you do not recognize anybody, even your family, but you keep wanting to go to the train station or airport to go on a journey to visit your long deceased relatives, you like to shuffle your clothes down the toilet, you like to throw your toothbrush down the toilet, and you get violent toward your care taker while all she wants is to take good care of you...
Your situation must be difficult for you. I’m sorry to hear it. Who are you protecting or nurturing? The person who has diminished capacities, or your own inability to live with others living in pain and suffering? I can think of many people who live lives seemingly worse than what you describe. You can find “victims of circumstances” everywhere. Perhaps this is a form of liberalism that goes just a little too far.
There are professionals (both public and private) who want to care for the kind of people your scenario describes.
Compassion is not about diminishing suffering and pain for yourself or for others. It’s learning how to live with it in this life. Death solves no problems for anyone. If you want to eliminate pain and suffering, you’re not going to be able to do it materially. No matter what happens in people’s lives, research shows that people return to their equilibrium state of happiness; happiness is always an inside job.
If people want to commit suicide, I doubt there is much that anyone can do to stop them. If they succeed, then there’s nothing to be done about it. If they don’t, it’s unlikely that society will punish them for their failures.
What I don’t think I care for is legislating the rights of others to help folks end their own lives.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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If you want to eliminate pain and suffering, you’re not going to be able to do it materially. You sure can eliminate material pain and suffering. Emotional and intellectual suffering is another matter, but removing the physical pain and suffering, or at least creating the hope and expectation that it will be relieved soon, sure can clear out space to deal with emotional and intellectual suffering. I don't think there is such thing as spiritual suffering. There is only suffering from a sense of being disconnected from one's spirit, which always exists in a state of exaltation, and this separation is brought on by emotional and intellectual suffering and our willful denial/rejection of that part of ourselves.
No matter what happens in people’s lives, research shows that people return to their equilibrium state of happiness; happiness is always an inside job.
People don't just endure slow painful terminal illnesses out of some high-minded ideal. They do it because they have no choice, and the more positive and mature people learn to accept their suffering and hardship and decide to be happy anyways. That doesn't mean they wouldn't jump at the chance to end it all in certain circumstances.
If people want to commit suicide, I doubt there is much that anyone can do to stop them. If they succeed, then there’s nothing to be done about it. If they don’t, it’s unlikely that society will punish them for their failures.
Maybe not society, but a family member can certainly punish someone by getting power of attorney, having a patient restrained and drugged to protect them from themselves, etc.
As for the dementia issue... my mom has long stated in a joking (but mostly serious) way that when she gets too far gone, to stick her on an ice floe and send her out to sea. She very clearly does not want to be a burden on anyone else. One can dig into this and say it is because of a deep fear of not being accepted, of not having enough sense of worth to want to cause an inconvenience to someone else, and that through being forced to have her children or someone else take care of her she would be receiving a gift of love and it would be a beautiful cathartic experience for her and her caretakers.
Maybe so. Maybe not. It depends on the situation and the availability/attitude of the caretakers and the nature of their relationship with the patient. Why should strangers with no vested interest in a specific patient or his/her caretakers get to make this decision? I don't think anyone has the perspective and experience to impose their viewpoint on others and hold them legally accountable to it, which is why we should not have regulation that precludes any option for what an individual (after some degree of checking/safeguarding) wants to do with their life.
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Mei
Trad climber
I'm back!
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*sigh* I really do not want to be engaged in a 1x1 "argument" when this issue is way larger than what you and me think personally. All I did was I voiced support for a law that was just passed. Now I feel obligated to respond when my name is called out simply because it would be rude if I choose to ignore. I'm more interested in reading about other people's thoughts on the matter whether they agree with mine or not.
First, I cringe when I see people exaggerate the potential impact of the law simply to make a point as if this law will encourage people to commit suicide. Just look at the Oregon’s Death with Dignity Act--2013 report (source), 71 deaths were administered under DWDA in 2013. "This corresponds to 21.9 DWDA deaths per 10,000 total deaths." So, stop crying wolf.
Second, it's not easy to get on the "program". Just read up the 14 safeguards (source from Oregon). I knew I'd never be able to follow through when I reached the "Three requests for Death with Dignity must be made (two verbal and one written)" clause.
Third, in my personal view, the law is not about the "rights of others to help folks end their own lives." It is about the peace of mind one dying person is allowed to have because she knows she would not put anyone she loves (family or caring physician) in jeopardy when she chooses to go the way she prefers.
As for the case of dementia/Alzheimer, I am neither the patient nor the care taker. I'm an observer feeling a strong dilemma. "There are professionals (both public and private) who want to care for the kind of people your scenario describes. " That's the sad truth about the Western society. When one has enough money (or government fund backing), she can be left to strangers to be cared for to live through the end of her life be it long or short. That's sad. However, it is sometimes unimaginably difficult effort for loving family to do the caring themselves. I don't have a answer to the situation. I only know what I personally would like to happen in my imaginary ideal world. And nobody has the right right to tell me how I should or should not think.
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| Messages 1 - 18 of total 18 in this topic |
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