Apocalypse Now - discuss (don't read until you've seen it!)

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NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 30, 2015 - 11:23pm PT
I've seen director's cut before a time or two. Tonight watched the theatrical release. I don't remember my specific reactions last times, but tonight I felt like I was encountering new themes, and the symbolism hit me very hard. I did a quick search of online discussions, and it seems only a small minority touched on what was hitting me. I think the gang here might make a fruitful discussion of this.


Majority of people seem to summarize it as the journey into hell, and an exploration of a man breaking, going insane (i.e. Brando's character, and in parallel Sheen's character). I can agree with the metaphor of descending to hell, but the insanity part I think is the opposite.

The first two thirds are a catalog of the absurd, the grim circus and horrors of war, the reactions of different types of people to the horrific and violent dissonances in which they are immersed. That is the first part of the descent into hell. Willard is a passive observer in all of this, and a private meditator that slowly develops his understanding of Kurtz, with a certain growing dread as if he knew all along what he was going to find.

And the end, it is not a study of a man who has gone or is going insane. Neither Kurtz nor Willard. Rather it is a parallel study of two sane men at different stages of reacting to an insane world. Willard's journey shows us the earlier part of that journey, as he comes to understand more deeply the insane nature of the world and the insane nature of his mission amidst the ridiculous contradictions, and his confrontation with the later stages of that realization in the form of Kurtz. He is on a mission because the big bosses judged Kurtz' methods "unsound." The bosses that don't want soldiers to write bad words on their airplanes because it's obscene, but those planes are there to drop flaming hell onto people and burn them to death. Killgore unleashes death, gory killing, so they can go surfing. In a world with no direction and no meaning, he makes his own, and the juxtaposition of that ridiculousness is very understandable as individuals coping with the insanity of their world, and also as culpable beasts in contributing to the insanity of that world. And the insane world sanctions the behavior of these insane beasts, these Valkyries. Willard's boat crew kill innocent people, and immediately afterward they have the self-deceiving moral duplicity of caring about a dog and wanting to take a lady they didn't completely kill back to "friendlies" that will help her. The insane contradictions, the bloody pointless death all around, and the overarching mission is dedicated to killing a renegade colonel because he is a killer. And ironically, the "unsound methods" of the colonel would probably lead to less death in the end if the bosses embraced those methods that were actually working.

The colonel does not love killing. Does not love violence. He recognizes that if they are there at all, to achieve the goal of defeating the opposition, he searches himself for the strength of will to do what must be done. His "army" is what he has recruited (or what he has permitted to organically form around him) to do what must be done to defeat the enemy. This is epitomized in the story he shares of how he learned that lesson, of the VC hacking off the kids' arms that had been inoculated by the US soldiers. It is ugly, morally reprehensible, and yet there is a deep logic to it that leads to "victory". It is a separate divergence to explore this definition of victory, the use of violence to overcome an opponent, and the symbol of Buddah's image alludes to Kurtz' realization that this very focus on the goal of victory through violent means was pursuing an empty/incorrect goal that ultimately undermines the higher moral validity, the intellectual underpinning of the "will" that Kurtz was using to justify his methods. Kurtz was informed by the recognition of what needed to be done to win and the "will" to follow through on it no matter how repugnant. He seemed to have an ideal of a person who loved the good things in life, but was willing to fully embrace whatever needed to be done. A person who didn't love it, but was able to make friends with "the horror", the "darkness", to achieve his objective (victory in the war, freedom from the insanity of world, one aspect of which was the fighting and death without victory or conclusion). The consequence of not being able to make friends with the horror and darkness, was having it be an enemy to fear, leading to weakness and losing (losing both the war and the path of a sane man toward a more sane world).

As the colonel embraced this philosophy and saw it enacted before him in the band of followers, he realized it was not the path of salvation he had hoped from the insanity of the world. Rather, the insanity of the world just morphed into a different expression in his followers. His followers were not the morally sound high minded people he dreamt of, the people that would "do what needed to be done" to win but not enjoy it. Rather they seemed to be a band of people intoxicated by the violence, mindless followers with no inner moral compass or sense of greater right/wrong or good or even a goal without regard to right/wrong that was driving them. It was a mindless mob, the body of a snake with no head. He tried to teach them, he read poetry, but they weren't on the same plane to understand what he tried to share. They objectified him. They deified him. On the one hand, he is angry, as God was at the Israelites reveling in violent pagan rituals while Moses was up conversing with God on Mt Sinai. That theme is driven home more forcefully in the end when Willard (Moses) emerges from the symbolic Mount Sinai with the written words of Kurtz (God), appearing as the stone tablet Ten Commandments. This also signals to us the intent that Kurtz is sharing "the truth" that the masses do not understand. On the other hand, he recognizes he is not god, sees himself somewhat as a failure but having had the right intentions that he wants to be part of his legacy. Honoring this element, the metaphor of God/Moses/Mt Sinai is twisted a bit. Instead of Willard coming down from Mt Sinai with a staff of God that projects the power of God, the symbolic staff is the weapon that killed God and the ideas associated with his elevation to God. It solidifies the theme that Kurtz was ultimately unsuccessful in his path to use violence to overcome the insanity of the world.

And in casting that weapon aside, Willard shows his divergence from the path of Kurtz. And then there is something that struck me very deeply when I watched this time. It is central to the difference between the theatrical release and the director's cut. When Willard casts his weapon aside, the mindless followers do too. One one level it appears to be a nice message, to see a leader casting aside violence and others following suit. But I don't think that is it at all. He cast aside the weapon because that part of his mission was done. He is a sane man, did what needed to be done to fulfill his mission, even if morally repugnant, and then he didn't relish further violence. But the followers are just followers. There is no critical evaluation of good versus evil, the merits of violence, the actions that are best suited to achieve a goal beyond good and evil. Rather, the followers are just mindless followers. The world is filled with mindless followers, and so few people to critically evaluate their positions and values and act accordingly.

I found that deeply disturbing when I saw this tonight, and unaccountably I cried quite deeply at that part. I was surprised to be moved so much by that particular bit. Perhaps it is because it too closely parallels my view of the world, and I mourn that unthinking insanity that surrounds us, that surrounds me, that perhaps is me and I'm just not as sane as I think I am.

Maybe there is a message of redemption buried deep in there, in that most people are followers that are susceptible to violence but can also be drawn away from it. It implies a responsibility of the leaders of the world to choose a path that steers the destiny of the followers away from violence, because the followers can't be relied upon to make that choice for themselves. And it is a scathing judgment against government powers that use war as a tool of diplomacy, trying to maintain the guise of morality when going to war is a descent to the bottom level of hell.
pop.risk

Ice climber
japan
Oct 1, 2015 - 12:46am PT
sift thru the four and a half hours of 'workprint'.
theres bits of it as extras, like the monkey sampan and cage scenes, but so, so much more even than that.
with these pieces in the mix you find its as much a search for his predecessor as it is to sort out Kurtz. in the unpolished workprint this all becomes laid out with some very profound stuff.
without it, Hoppers character is made the interface with the community, but turns out hes just a random semi-outsider, whereas the previous assassin - whos outcomes Willard needs to know - became an insider. this goes on to fill out a huge part of the last scenes and why Willard acts as he does.

this film could have been cut in so many ways to have so many narratives. people often discuss the ending and did it this or did it that, but there could have been entire genres of film it could edited into.

theres more in each minute of AN than in most entire films.

to my mind the scene where Kurtz and a bunch of kids visit Willard in a shipping container, and the dialogue, is the most captivating scene ever filmed.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Oct 1, 2015 - 07:58am PT
Nut,

You've read "Heart of Darkness" right? If not you should go read it as Apocalypse Now is based/inspired by this. The author is Conrad I think.

kev
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 1, 2015 - 08:28am PT
I've watched it. I found it easier to understand Sheen's later efforts, especially in his role as Charlie.

I loved parts of The Heart of Darkness. But there was no surfing at all in that, so it kinda sucked but not all the way.












micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Oct 1, 2015 - 08:31am PT
Great thought and insights Nut.

And then there is something that struck me very deeply when I watched this time. It is central to the difference between the theatrical release and the director's cut. When Willard casts his weapon aside, the mindless followers do too. One one level it appears to be a nice message, to see a leader casting aside violence and others following suit. But I don't think that is it at all. He cast aside the weapon because that part of his mission was done. He is a sane man, did what needed to be done to fulfill his mission, even if morally repugnant, and then he didn't relish further violence. But the followers are just followers. There is no critical evaluation of good versus evil, the merits of violence, the actions that are best suited to achieve a goal beyond good and evil. Rather, the followers are just mindless followers. The world is filled with mindless followers, and so few people to critically evaluate their positions and values and act accordingly.


From one Nut to another, I'm glad this movie has you thinking. Conrad's Heart of Darkness is one of my favorite novels, and Apocalypse Now is one of my favorite films of that genre. My thoughts on the part that moved you were similar. I've always been struck by some people's propensity to follow. Even unto madness or acts that they alone would never contemplate. Cult behavior, mob mentailty. It always frightens me. It reminds me that many people have such a poorly formed moral compass that they are prone to sway in the wind or with the waves. To be manipulated or led astray into places in their psyche they never knew they possessed. It also reminds me that we are all weak, and that often evil lies just below the surface of what seems to be a well balanced humanity.

I have so many more thoughts on this. Gotta run for now, but I'll be back and ready to discuss.

1. I believe all men are accountable for their actions. But it is frightening that we all have the propensity for evil and violence....or for letting that base, violent nature in all of us take over. What is it that keeps that at bay? Is it that many of us have an awareness that it exists and we fight against it, or is it that a guy like me just has no appetite for it and has a well defined mechanism for recognizing it and detesting it?


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 1, 2015 - 08:36am PT
I wouldn't get too deep into something that primarily entertains, even if it does so well.
Lurkingtard

climber
Oct 1, 2015 - 08:37am PT
I liked Sheen better in Two and A Half Men.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 1, 2015 - 08:41am PT
Need we go back further than Nazi Germany? Look what happened to the highly educated citizens of a civilized, culturally rich country.
I love Conrad, one of the greatest writers ever in a language that was not his native tongue.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 1, 2015 - 08:48am PT

Great post, NutAgain.

Here's one other way of trying to make sense
[Click to View YouTube Video]
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Oct 1, 2015 - 09:17am PT
over the course of his stay in Africa, Kurtz becomes corrupted. He takes his pamphlet and scribbles in, at the very end, the words "Exterminate all the brutes!"

MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Oct 1, 2015 - 09:20am PT
I applaud the OT exposition. I appreciate: the OP’s views here on ST and the values of the hardy adventurers it serves; the emotional impact of the film when I saw it may years ago; the film’s resonance and reference to Conrad’s powerful short story; my own experiences in combat in Vietnam; my time recovering in a hospital from wounds along with CIA “spooks” whose “success measurements” were ears taken from the enemy; my major in English Literature; and my Buddhist training that views mythical wrathful deities as counterparts to beatific deities. All these present different views, all valid in my opinion.

What one sees in a text (film) allows one to come up with interpretations, and those interpretations are supposed to resonate with the canon of literature(s). The point of interpretations (such as the OP’s) is to explain or account for texts that stand-out to us over time. Symbolism and techniques (like alliteration or rhyme or cadence) help to establish themes and emphasis to “get” a message, even unintended by authors. All help to expose / explain the Human Condition.

In the end, what one sees (and hears, touches, tastes, etc.) in any art is what one is. We make art to discover who we are.

We are all artists, making up our lives and our world.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Oct 1, 2015 - 09:40am PT
To add another dimension to this film interpretation...Hearts of Darkness: A Filmmaker's Apocalypse about the making of Apocalypse Now, is worth seeing. Here's an excerpt from it...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 1, 2015 - 10:20am PT
Kurtz prevails in the end by judging himself: "the horror, the horror!"

the film captures this idea with Kurtz's willingness to let Willard kill him; the "noble lie" appears in Willard's completion of his mission...Kurtz, in fact, has spoken the truth (though he's not the first...see Sherman): the best way to win a war is to be more cruel than the enemy; Willard recognizes this truth but "lies" by killing the truth-teller...he'll return to his officers and give them the lie they want to hear: Kurtz was a madman...but we know different

Kilgore's character is made a parody in the director's cut...he's not so much bloodthirsty as glory hungry...he represents the difference between war (which is always bad--Ares) and battle (which is always good--Athena); amorphous, unaccountable, unthinking, unfeeling nations vs real, individual, accountable, thinking, feeling men

the killing of the innocents is a good example; the boys on the boat are not yet warriors; they're simply pawns following orders...remember, it's the chief, whom everybody loves, who orders them to search the family's boat because he has "orders"...it's willard, the warrior who is able to distinguish between a battle worth fighting and the war that he knows is absurd, that tries to persuade the chief to leave it alone
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Oct 1, 2015 - 10:41am PT
My take is that Kurtz’s final judgment on his life, his actions, mankind in general, imperialism, or his fate is one of deep and profound fear.


Perhaps these final words hint to the fact that he now understands the profound truth of what a monster he has become and that there is only two options in the afterlife. Heaven or Hell. And he is aware that he is damned. Literally heading to Hell. And the thought of it brings him nothing but horror.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Oct 1, 2015 - 11:06am PT
I thought these were most compelling lines in the film...

We went into a camp to inoculate some children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried, I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out; I didn't know what I wanted to do! And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it... I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, my God... the genius of that! The genius! The will to do that! Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we, because they could stand that these were not monsters, these were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men, our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment! Because it's judgment that defeats us.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2015 - 11:25am PT
^^^^ Yes!

That is what struck me hardest the first time, and still strikes me. That is the revelation to Kurtz that changed him. That became his ideal, the razor's edge he tried to crawl across unscathed like the snail.

I haven't read Heart of Darkness yet, which is apparently one of many big holes in my literary experience.

Some feedback here makes me want to dig deeper into what it means to be "sane". Does it mean acting logically in accordance with one's values? Or does it mean having values that are within the realm of societal acceptance? Or something else?

If it is about having values within a range accepted by society, clearly the backdrop of war shows the precarious and relative nature of defining sanity. We want to claim some sort of moral order and prerogative, a notion of civilization standing above chaos and base defilement, and yet being in war is antithetical to that. If you are going to be in a war, presumably you have an intention to win, and to defeat the enemy via war you must ultimately abandon notions of civility and morality.

To me, THAT is the razor's edge that Kurtz dreamed of crawling across unscathed, like the snail. To hold onto a moral prerogative, while participating in a war where "victory" requires abandoning that moral prerogative. He couldn't do it. There is a strong case to be made that it can't be done. We don't know the outcome of the soldiers who hacked off the children's arms, and we don't know the ultimate impact of taking that stand. But we do know that those children are missing arms. Was it worth it? Worth it in what currency?

Willard is crawling along his own razor: how can you hold someone accountable for murder, for "unsound methods", when all around you are examples of murder and unsound methods? That is what war is. It is the failure of communication and compromise, the statement "if you don't do what I want I will murder you. And even if you do what I want, I might murder you anyways."

So... sanity. Defined by what is societally accepted? The same mindless hordes that take their moral compass from whomever guides them? Do I want to be sane by this measure? Maybe this is another nuance of the disgust that Kurtz expressed with regard to being judged. On one level he was judging himself, based on his own set of carefully considered values and the experience gained from his actions. On the other hand, he wanted a place free of judgement, and a group of idealized people that could do what needed to be done without judgement. Because in that latter case judgement was implicitly in the context of the group label sane vs. insane, which is a measure of compliance to what the mindless followers find acceptable. And the whole story shows what a shaky foundation that is, not connected with the rational consideration of right and wrong, desired outcome and acceptable cost to achieve that outcome, etc.

Sanity. What is normal? Though shalt not kill? And yet you are ordered to kill. Are you insane if you follow orders begrudgingly, if you follow them too avidly, if you embrace them more fully than your bosses envisioned while pursuing the bigger objective for which the orders were made, or if you reject the orders altogether?
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Oct 1, 2015 - 11:56am PT
Nut,

Get off the internet and go buy you some Conrad! You can read HOD in a day. Its an easy and profound read that will infuse a new layer of introspection into the way you digest Apoc Now.
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Oct 1, 2015 - 12:05pm PT
Sycorax,

Good point about the "Heading up the river" narrative. Those stories always resonate with me. We all have our river. We all have our white whale. Our journey through Mordor.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Oct 1, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
HoD might just be the best piece of prose in the English language. All the more remarkable given that English was not Conrad's native tongue.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 1, 2015 - 01:03pm PT
If you want the Full Monty heart of darkness take a trip up the Congo River.
If you fear that may prove too sac-shriveling read about it in this month's
Nat Geo; it kind of puts a be-here-now-for-the-coming-apocalypse in your hands.
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