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Messages 1 - 17 of total 17 in this topic |
Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 3, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
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Does anyone have a report of a cross-loaded locking biner failing? Specifically when the locker was used to attach a belay device?
I climbed with a guy yesterday who was adamant that by clipping a gri-gri to my harness, rather than the belay loop, we were putting ourselves at risk. There's something about having a belay loop that magically prevents the device from ending up cross loaded if the gri-gri slides down towards the gate? I've read this again - "OMG you're going to cross load the belay biner!" I'd think folks would be dying all the time if this were the case.
(I was happy to belay the guy however he wanted.) I clip to the harness rather than belay loop to keep belay device further away from hair/bandana/t-shirts, and it's easier to control being lower down. I just don't really believe there is a significant risk due to a crossloaded belay biner because out of how ever many billion belays that have been cross-loaded, I've never heard of one actually failing.
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Mei
Trad climber
Was one
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First, let's assume you wear a normal harness that has a belay loop running vertical when you are standing (as opposed to a GYM harness) .
Clipping the locking biner to the belay loop allows rope to be more naturally aligned through the Grigri, which reduces the chance of cross loading the locking biner (see Grigri tech sheet). Cross loading a biner, locking or not, is never recommended by the manufactures and should be avoided and can be avoided easily.
"..out of how ever many billion belays that have been cross-loaded..." Not sure where the stats came from, but it sounds wrong.
I don't have an answer regarding the failure report or stats due to cross load, but I feel that it's actually irrelevant. There has to be a better way to keep your hair/bandana/t-shirts out of your belay device.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Harnesses have a belay loop for a reason, you should use it.
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Kimballistic
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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The problem with clipping directly into both tie-in points on your harness is triaxial loading of the carabiner, not crossloading.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
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Thanks for the posts so far.
Still no broken biner due to a cross load?
As far as the harness causing triaxial loading - not sure I believe that either. In the case of a lead fall, your leg loops tend to take most of the load. Maybe your waist loop takes a significantly smaller load. If you consider the force vectors: gravity is mostly pushing down on the leg loops while inertial force is pushing against the waist loop. Generally the whole mess of legloop and waist loop gets bunched together into a single point anyway.
The gym accident is sort of interesting in that it probably wouldn't have happened if that biner was clipped into the harness directly (biner wouldnt' be rotating). My point wasn't about harness clip in vs. loop. I'm just trying to find a broken belay biner due to cross loading.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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I remember reading about failures of crossloaded biners on figure 8's, but those occurred when the 8 levered across the gate. So is that a real cross-load failure or a special circumstance particular to the use of a figure 8?
I doubt it really makes any difference whether you use your belay loop or harness tie-in points, but I also see no reason to not use the belay loop. And IMO it is kind of a PITA to thread a biner through my tie-in points every time I want to belay or rap.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2015 - 04:51pm PT
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I do believe for sure that non-lockers break in lead falls (often gate open). There are many documented examples in Accidents in North American Mountaineering.
I just find it really surprising that there is not one single example of a broken belay biner [edit: due to outward cross load]. I would think that someone at a gym or sport crag somewhere would have done it by now.
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WBraun
climber
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Such bullsh!t.
I've never belayed off the belay loop.
I've always belayed off the tie-in loops and use a grigri.
There's no cross loading and the grigri is perfectly in line.
Watch everyone who uses a grigri on the belay loop and the belay loop twists because the grigri is not in line.
Climbers are monkeys and see monkey do .....
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Did you ask him if he was an engineer?
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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There's no cross loading and the grigri is perfectly in line.
Same is true with an atc as well
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Mei
Trad climber
Was one
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Watch everyone who uses a grigri on the belay loop and the belay loop twists because the grigri is not in line. Everyone? There is no need to make stuff up just to make a point.
Nobody follows manufacture recommendations 100%. Do you guys know that the 1st gen Grigri specifies the rope range to be 10-11mm? I sure have used it, and will continue using it, outside of that narrow range.
In the end, belay loop or tie in loops is your personal choice, and if done with care, either can be safe. If your choice makes your partner uncomfortable, it's between you and him/her to sort out.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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going to lay heavy bread on those who know the truth --
you are advised to follow the manual that comes with any belay device. Use the belay device as the manufacturer developed and tested it.
that cannot be difficult.
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WBraun
climber
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Do you guys know that the 1st gen Grigri specifies the rope range to be 10-11mm?
I knew that but I used a single 8.8mm lead rope for years `with a 1st generation grigri.
It works no problem.
Nobody follows the manufacture instructions anyways except n00bs ...... :-)
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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I put the biner through my top harness loop, and then the belay loop, which is not recommended by anyone, and if you do it you will undoubtably die. However, I find that with this configuration, where the belay loop is really just a back up, the locking biner is always in perfect alignment. Like I said, most likely I am going to die because this is not the recommended usage, but it works great for me so I'm happy. When belay loops first came to be standard on harnesses, I initially tried to use the "belay loop" as recommended, and I noticed what Werner said. I personally think the belay loop only usage holds the biner in an odd configuration.
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jonnyrig
climber
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I use Grigris and ATCs on harness with and without the belay loops. It works either way. And I've seen the belay device get into awkward positions with both too. You know what it comes down to?
Pay attention.
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Messages 1 - 17 of total 17 in this topic |
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