Grigri concerns?

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DAN DUANE

climber
SAN FRANCISCO, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - May 29, 2015 - 10:23am PT
I've been hearing noise about guys not liking Grigris for safety reasons. Not that they fail, but rather something about their design encouraging amateur-operator error. Can somebody fill me in? I get the idea that the release lever is set up to operate in the same direction/vector as the brake on an ATC, such that a belayer's reflex, in trying to stop a fall, might be to yank the lever the wrong way. But is there something else I ought to know about?
Brian More

climber
Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
May 29, 2015 - 10:36am PT
http://www.petzl.com/en/Sport/Belaying-with-the-GRIGRI?ProductName=GRIGRI-2#.VWijl7QQHu0

Post Script; no good on icy/soaked rope, at least in my experience.

Also; I like your books, if you're the same Dan Duane as:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Daniel+Dunae
phylp

Trad climber
Upland, CA
May 29, 2015 - 10:37am PT
I still have my original Gri Gri 1. The main thing to know about it is that it is not a GUARANTEED braking device. It is a braking ASSIST device. I have experienced ropes, especially new, skinnier ropes, slide right through under body weight.

The Gri Gri 2 is supposed to be better, but I would never trust it. Always keep your brake hand on the rope.
Roots

Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
May 29, 2015 - 10:41am PT
Don't like it or the Cinch. IMHO they are lazy and if/when the day comes when the user that is accustomed to that device has to use an ATC, they might f'up. For that same reason, I do not use auto-locking carabiners either.
DAN DUANE

climber
SAN FRANCISCO, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2015 - 10:56am PT
To Brian More: yep, same Dan Duane.

And thanks, fellas. Much obliged. It's been on my mind because I'm climbing with a belayer (my 12-year-old daughter) who weighs half what I do. Yes, directional anchors, tied to trees even on the ground, etc ... and she's a very focused and responsible kid. We're only doing routes on which a leader-fall would be a surprising fluke, but it's still a heavy burden, belaying one's father. I did it myself for years. In that setting, there are things I like about the Grigri, assisting her in making the catch. But ... other things I'm wondering about.
SeaClimb

climber
May 29, 2015 - 11:12am PT
Regarding using a braking assisted device with your daughter, this is the only way to go...Having her manage large forces at 12 with an ATC is asking a lot from her.

Just focus on her using proper belaying technique and not "relying" on the cam to do the work (it will, 99.9% of the time).

I also brought Metolius "poop tubes" to the crag, and filled them on the spot as ballast. They are durable and light. Empty the rocks when you leave.


I took whippers with absolute confidence on my son when he was as young as 11, and very small and light...

One other point, is to stay verbally engaged with your child. Lots of "watch me". "This looks hard". "I'm really pumped"...etc. It makes it harder for them to zone out...

I miss the days of climbing with him. These days, he'd rather go cragging with his buddies, but we still share a rope at times. Very cherised...
Rieser

climber
SF, CA
May 29, 2015 - 11:23am PT
Dan - Have a look at this accident report in case you missed it http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2554469&msg=2569118#msg2569118

M
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 29, 2015 - 12:11pm PT
When you know the way broadly you will see it in all things.

There will always be a new device or fancy piece of equipment that can be improperly used - the impetus isn't to race to ban or limit their use as they show up but to better understand the systems of checks and balances that are standard and have helped keep us safe since the 1800's.

this is a terrible event, one of many that have happened in conjunction with a Gri Gri, however even a traditional belay device would have failed the climber had it not been properly clipped to his harness.
bbbeans

Trad climber
May 29, 2015 - 12:19pm PT
personally I would rather be belayed with a grigri than an atc, since if something happened to my belayer, I would hopefully still be on belay.
jaaan

Trad climber
Chamonix, France
May 29, 2015 - 12:25pm PT
You know, every two months there's a GriGri hate thread on UKClimbing. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with GriGris, just that some folk, even into adulthood, haven't acquired enough motor skills to use anything with a lever...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 29, 2015 - 12:30pm PT
I grew up on old skool belay devices. Figure 8's, belay plates.

So when I first met Grigri, in the 90's, I'd kept myself and my partners alive for over 20 years with more basic tools.

So do I "NEED" this new device to keep myself and my friends alive? No.

Still, I gave the thing a fair shake and used it all the way up Excalibur on El Cap. I never could get over the discomfort. Went all the way to my marrow practically.

I have never used one again, and it's been another 20 years.

My partners still climb with me.

Did I mention heavy or expensive?.......
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
May 29, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
My big beef with the GriGri is not the device, as it is fine piece of hardware when used correctly by an experienced operator, but rather with the mentality it attracts amongst the inexperienced Noobs.

Years back we had a crowd go out to a crag and one guy asked me to lead a 5.8 route so his girlfriend could have something easy'ish for her to climb. Before I know it he is clipping a gri-gri to HER and telling her that it will basically do all the important stuff automatically. So I really ended up soloing the route with a trad rack on (I kick myself over letting it happen, oh well).

A grigri requires more training and experience than an ATC, not less. Noobs get setup with them as an insurance policy against their obvious lack of experience when that is even more dangerous than acknowledging their ineptitude.

A big issue with using a grigri is that there are common human failure modes that can result in disaster if used improperly. A normal human response is to clamp down in a panic, which is great with an ATC. With a grigri this response can result in the operator holding the cam open if they are feeding out slack improperly.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
May 29, 2015 - 01:18pm PT
I don't use grigris much but I did when climbing with my then preteen daughter. A couple of thoughts: Use a relatively thicker rope for a more consistent lockup.
A second issue I'm aware of is the lowering system... in my experience ... is very sensitive to how far you pull the lever back. Too far and you drop the person. I'd at least do a lot of practice lowers in a safe setting before going out to the crags.
Finally there is the issue of paying out rope rapidly... such as when leader is clipping. Depending on the rope the device will often lockup right when the leader needs slack. What I've seen many people do is pinch the locking mechanism closed (or you could say pinch it to keep it open) with the break hand while pulling rope thru with the left hand. This works for feeding out slack rapidly but disengages the auto lock feature momentarily. Petzl warns not to use this system but I still see many belayers doing it. I think there may even be a film out there demonstrating the dangers.


Edit:see Brian's petzl link above and click thru to their video.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
May 29, 2015 - 01:40pm PT
Whatever the pros and cons of grigris in experienced hands (and there are sport climbers---eg Sharma---who have never used anything but), the question here has to do with the proper device for a young person, say around 12.

People seem to focus on possible weight mismatches and correcting them with a ground anchor or counterweight, but just as important is the fact that children's grip strength may not be up to the demands of holding adult impact loads with a tubular device. Such devices are force multipliers, and may not produce adequate braking forces when a child's grip is what they have to work with.

The gri gri was the original solution to this problem; now there are quite a few alternatives. Ideally, you want something that will neutralize low grip strength but not introduce new failure modes, and the gri gri is probably not at the top of the list for this.

Things to consider: The DMM Grip, http://tv.thebmc.co.uk/video/dmm-grip-belay-device, if it provides enough braking force for a kid, might be the best option. I don't think the Edelrid MegaJul and Mammut Smart are good choices for kids, although they do provide "assisted braking," because they also require special motions for pumping slack to the leader, motions which can lead to belay failure if they are invoked at the wrong moment. The CT Alpine Up (which I think is better on all counts anyway) is probably a better choice for kids because of its more natural operation.

A new Gri-gri competitor with at least some advantages is the the Camp Matik (which probably replaces the Edelrid Eddy if you want a panic-proof lowering lever)

[Click to View YouTube Video]
SeaClimb

climber
May 29, 2015 - 01:55pm PT
RGold...

totally agree with you...hence my comment "...Having her manage large forces at 12 with an ATC is asking a lot from her."

kids' hands are not exactly rope clampers...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 29, 2015 - 02:04pm PT
I'm not sure having a 12 year old belaying a full size man is such a great idea, no matter what the device.

Of course there are 12 yr olds who can and HAVE handled it.

But as a general rule I would keep 12 yr olds between a couple of solid, competent adults, and out of the critical life saving positions.
SeaClimb

climber
May 29, 2015 - 02:05pm PT
case by case basis...i'd take my boy over 90% of adults out there...
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
May 29, 2015 - 02:10pm PT
Took a rock to my face when my climbers foot hold broke off unexpectedly. I held the fall with the ATC but the 'what if' convinced me to get a grigri. Use them both and like the added protection the grigri gives should I get knocked out.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 29, 2015 - 02:18pm PT
It's a tough call. Operator error is less likely with a gri-gri but certainly not impossible.

I made my worst mistake belaying while using a Gri-Gri. I managed to thread it in backwards and when My partner sat back to be lowered... SURPRISE!!! he quickly descended about 3 feet before I caught him. Fortunately I am careful about using my break hand properly even with a gri-gri. He was kinda pissed off though... can't blame him.

You can stop some falls with a gri gri threaded backwards.. not lots of inherrent friction though.

Shiho

Trad climber
Salt Lake City
May 29, 2015 - 02:27pm PT
Belaying someone who weights a lot more than you with an ATC can give you rope burns so in that regard, using a grigri is nice.

Also, I don't think a lot of people realize how dramatic it is to the belayer's body when the leader who outweighs by quite a lot takes a fall. I caught a couple of falls about 2 weekends ago and my body still hurts from catching the falls. (he weighed 70+lb more than I do) I am sure a 12-year-old's body recovers fast but really, it is a lot of work to belay someone who weighs a lot more than you do.

Don't anchor your daughter because that would be even more painful to your daughter when she catches your fall. What works (for me) is to put some rocks in my backpack and tether it to my belay loop. I have to make the length of the tether right so that the impact of the fall goes to the backpack slight earlier than to me. This, of course, doesn't work on multi-pitch, but usually on multi-pitch climbs, there are more friction that reduces the impact of the fall.

Anyway, my conclusion is, being a small climber, using a grigri is nice especially when I belay someone quite a bit bigger than me.
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