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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
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Nutagain, no problem, I just don't want to condemn the entire one point five billion strong religion to the pit of ignorance.
23% of the worlds population.
I propose we find a way to work and live with the one billion plus members we can get along with.
Edit:
Please note, I did not say condone or ignore or not fight against the extremists.
2) Also, I will add that I don't favor Shia over Sunni, this is just a much deeper part of the conversation than most Americans have been exposed to.
Nutagain, thanks for your addition.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Thanks, Survival. Ignorance most definitely is not bliss on this issue.
John
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Survival: Congratulations for having the courage to attempt to introduce rational debate to this complex subject.
Best of luck.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Such an important point that will be lost on too many shallow minds.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Normally I see Ron's religious or political posts as inflammatory and something to just skip over.
But in this case, I think there is a nugget worth addressing in a delicate but direct way. I personally struggle with several inconsistencies I have experienced:
personal friends and co-workers who are Islamic and very friendly, calm, pious, peaceful people
I have spent a very modest amount of time understanding the beginning of Islam and the prophet Mohammad, and most likely from very biases sources, but it seems that violence is inextricably linked with the birth and expansion of the religion
A history of violence is tied to other religions too, and I'm not trying to single out Islam for this, but the key question I think is about the long term potential for harmony between a religion and a secular state with universal laws and no special exemptions for religions.
One might argue that we have already failed this in the U.S. with how screwed up is the alliance between Christian fundamentalists and business to form the Republican Party, leaving minimal choices that are independent of Christianity. That said...
What are the views of the average reasonable Islamic person or family toward Islam co-existing with other religions in a secular government? Can Islam thrive and grow without impinging upon the safety and freedoms of people who accept Islamic people just fine but choose not to participate or be held accountable to the rules of Islam?
Assuming the average Islamic family lives in a peaceable and coexisting way, does a large growth in the Islamic population (which I have no problem with) give the fringe elements of Islam too much shelter and sanctuary within the numbers of well-meaning law-abiding Islamic folks? Do we have this same issue with Christianity in America already or is this something that is really different?
When I was in college, I went to 1 or 2 sessions of a bible study group out of curiosity because my roommate was going. I point blank asked them if they believed that all pious people who believe in different religions are going to hell because they don't accept Jesus as their savior. After brief soul-searching the leader dude begrudgingly answered Yes. I told him that I don't have any problem with him but I can't be part of a group that thinks that way.
So I wonder if it is similar with Islamic folks who "blindly turn their eyes" to the less pleasant aspects of the religion. In other words, everyone is well-meaning and nice and coexisting out of practical day to day necessity and making life more pleasant in the circumstances, but when push comes to shove they really do believe that the world should be converted to Islam and that secular governments should take a back seat to Islamic law? I assume there is a gradient, but how many people are really in the camp of wanting Islam to be more powerful in regulating the world as compared to secular governments (or as the world is changing- corporations)?
I ask these things out of honest ignorance and a desire to better understand. I have no grudge to satisfy or agenda to promote.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Good point rig... how to keep all the powerful forces in check while minimizing violence and maximizing mutual acceptance and understanding?
Just about everything I raised as a concern is just as much of an issue with Christians.
Perhaps the only reason that the government in the US can be nominally separate from religion is because historically there was a de facto implied monoculture of Christianity in the wake of genocide cleansing of a continent.
Is there a model anywhere in the world where a secular government is stable and society is basically peaceful with a balanced population of folks from different major religions? Something that stays peaceful for several generations? Maybe parts of Northern India is the closest example... and there is a lot of unpleasantness in that history.
Oh well. World politics is complicated and deeply rooted with our need to feel part of a group, but at least most individuals are pretty cool and easy to get along with.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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When I was in college, I went to 1 or 2 sessions of a bible study group out of curiosity because my roommate was going. I point blank asked them if they believed that all pious people who believe in different religions are going to hell because they don't accept Jesus as their savior. After brief soul-searching the leader dude begrudgingly answered Yes. I told him that I don't have any problem with him but I can't be part of a group that thinks that way.
So I wonder if it is similar with Islamic folks who "blindly turn their eyes" to the less pleasant aspects of the religion. In other words, everyone is well-meaning and nice and coexisting out of practical day to day necessity and making life more pleasant in the circumstances, but when push comes to shove they really do believe that the world should be converted to Islam and that secular governments should take a back seat to Islamic law? I assume there is a gradient, but how many people are really in the camp of wanting Islam to be more powerful in regulating the world as compared to secular governments (or as the world is changing- corporations)?
There's the crux of the difference.
Keep in mind we are talking religions here so theological premises don't need to be logically consistent to be ultimately operative.
The Sort version is that the Evangelical Christian believes that a non believer is going to hell and he has an obligation to try to convince you of your free will to believe. Faith being the operative concept, Conversion has to be an act of freely chosen personal will.
Islam translates as submission.
There is no concept of free choice. You have three choices, convert, pay the Dehimi tax and live as a subjugated second class person, or die. This and the precept of Taqiyah (Deception in the advancement of the faith is noble) explains the demographic data that Ron listed.
The Koran is primarily a political document. A blueprint for the organization of a waring tribal society justified with religious precepts, started by a schizophrenic child molesting warlord.
It will take more than a Martin Luther to start a reformation of it. The originating premises and goals are too flawed. It is a completely contradictory belief system to western democracy, as contradictory as Stalinist socialism or the Nazis.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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What I took from the longer video, is that the Jihadi aspect is being incredibly perverted. According to the elders, this part of the koran only applies when a majority of Muslim religious leaders call for a Fatwa (A call to action for all Muslims) and that this has never actually happened. It is simply a defence mechanism for infidels, kind of like your Second Amendment. A way to protect from attacking enemies and tyrannical governments.
Anyone shouting Allah is great while killing people is a hypocrite because a Fatwa has never been officially called.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Good thinking goin on here :-)
I think the bigger problem,
I like how you changed the words around. And I think that's the biggest problem with people in power, like preachers and politicians. Sometimes one can't tell them apart. I am abashed by the percentages of so called Christians that would like the bible to run the government. This attitude is a brainwashing going on between the pulpit and the voting booth. These are Christians trying to live with one foot on earth and one foot in heaven. Jesus condemned/condemns everyone of mans worldly governments. The entire new testament is a testament to that fact. Gods government as described in the bible can never operate in this world! The bible is a spiritual manual and cannot be comprehended by the material man. Period!
For a Christian to want and try to dictate a nonbeleivers life through a secular worldly government is blasphemous!
And I would go as far as calling THEM the Devil directly to their face! From the love of my heart of course.
WAKE UP CHRISTIANS and stand up for what Jesus sez!!! The Liar is getting more powerful everyday
Selah
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"...shouting Allah is great while killing people...
Pretty sure Christians did the same thing in the Crusades.
And didn't Petraeus have everyone pray at his strategic meetings?
Times have changed. Not.
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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But Frankly, there isn't one part of that religion I care for. Not the dress , not the forced prayer, not any of it. I mean, for womwen to have to wrap themselves up like that is ridiculous.
Yeah, don't you just hate those religions that make women dress funny?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Any reform of Islam is going to come from the distaff side.
That's instinctively realized and cranks up the already misogynistic bent to the point of assassinating young school girls.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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POP QUIZ
WHICH IS BAD?
A) BLACK
B) BLACK
C) BLACK
D) ALL OF THE ABOVE
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Do we have this same issue with Christianity in America already
If at any time someone resorts to physical force to achieve his ideals which he is presenting came from the bible, he is NOT a follower of Christ!
Jesus told Peter to lay down his sword, that Gods love cannot be attained through force..
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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God's Love looks different from every angle. The beauty of meeting each one of us in our own space.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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What I understand is that religion and not money is the root of all evil.
Ding ding!
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John M
climber
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plenty of non religious evil out there.. Mercy.. wasn't big banking that brought down the worlds economy evil?
some translations say..
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils.
A root.. not THE root.
and
All kinds of evil.. not evil period.
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