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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 4, 2015 - 03:38am PT
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Just listened to a Hardcore History pod-cast; #49 The American Peril, about the late 19th century, Roosevelt and other Jingoists pushing for an American empire.... If you haven't listened to Dan Carlin's (Hardcore History) pod-casts they are all really quite entertaining. This one happens to be free to download from ITunes. This era is not my field of study so I have no opinion on accuracy of his presentation... but a good listen all the same. Got a spare 4 hours? Or have a long drive ahead of you. You'll like it..
By the way, his (also free) series on Genghis Khan is even better.
number 6 on the I-tunes list here
http://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/dan-carlins-hardcore-history/id173001861?mt=2
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ECF
Big Wall climber
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I wish more people cared about history.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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I care enough that I might stoop to using Itunes for the first time ever.
shudder
Teddy Roosevelt was a very interesting person.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2015 - 08:24am PT
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I think you can download directly from DanCarlin.com if you prefer.
Teddy was a egoistic murderous jerk. Just my opinion. ha
But his machismo must ring familiar to climbers. Danger and discomfort give life its meaning. I do find some truth in that. Hitler loved his WWI war years too. Man is a strange creature.
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gumbyclimber
climber
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America's craziest president. A man who reinvigorated imperialism and warned against "the menace of peace".
Tom Woods writes: "Presidential scholar Edward Corwin has spoken of the "personalization of the presidency," by which he means that the accident of personality has played a considerable role in shaping the office. And indeed it is hard to think of a stronger personality than that of Theodore Roosevelt who ever served as president. One presidential scholar observed that Roosevelt gave the office "the absorbing drama of a Western movie." And no wonder. Mark Twain, who met with the president twice, declared him "clearly insane." In a way, Roosevelt set the tone for his public life to come at age 20, when, after an argument with his girlfriend, he went home and shot and killed his neighbor's dog. He told a friend in 1884 that when he donned his special cowboy suit, which featured revolver and rifle, "I feel able to face anything." When he killed his first buffalo, he "abandoned himself to complete hysteria," as historian Edmund Morris put it, "whooping and shrieking while his guide watched in stolid amazement." His reaction was similar in 1898 when he killed his first Spaniard."
"This is a pistol with history," he said, fondling his revolver affectionately. "It was taken from the wreck of the Maine. When I took it to Cuba I made a vow to kill at least one Spaniard with it and I did..."
His eldest daughter once remarked, "He wants to be the bride at every wedding, the corpse at every funeral, and the baby at every christening."
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Flip Flop
climber
salad bowl, california
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Fvckin Teddy Nutjob. It's important to remember that in politics, like climbing, crazy is a winning tactic.
My grandfather, born Theodore Roosevelt Scheile, changed his name to Theodore Raymond Scheile. He hated Teddy. I'm not sure his reasons.
My complaints about Teddy are the imperialistic thrutchings that left such a mess. Competitive little east coast guy with too much blood lust, in my opinion.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Like I said.. very interesting guy.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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If it wasn't for Teddy Roosevelt, I suppose you'd all be begging wealthy landowners for the possibility to enjoy a little bit of access to the vast resource that is now the public lands (isn't hypothetical history fun!).
Which reminds me of the Province of Buenos Aires, where less than one-tenth-of-one-percent of the surface area is public lands and the deer population was hunted to virtual extinction decades ago. Teddy Roosevelt didn't have much influence here.
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Flip Flop
climber
salad bowl, california
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Yanqui,
Can we talk? Would you mind reading a bit about US imperialism and Corporate Colonialism in Argentina and then tell me if you think that US policy hasn't affected Argentina.
In a modification of the phrase "Lo que no tienen ustedes, tenemos nosotros."
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gumbyclimber
climber
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If it wasn't for Teddy Roosevelt, I suppose you'd all be begging wealthy landowners for the possibility to enjoy a little bit of access to the vast resource that is now the public lands (isn't hypothetical history fun!).
Maybe. On the other hand, "Germany ranks among the densely wooded countries in Europe. Around 11,4 million hectares corresponding to one third of the national territory are covered with forests...Forests increased by more than 1 million hectares in Germany over the past five decades...Hence, Germany occupies a leading place compared with other European countries....48% of the 11.4 million hectares of forest in Germany are private forests. 29% of forests are owned by Countries, 19% owned by corporations and 4% owned by the state."
Japan is both the most densely populated (90% live on 10% of the land) and most forested (67%) first-world nation with 60% private forest.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Wasn't Thomas Jefferson the first hegemonist imperialist president with his
Barbary Pirates War?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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What did he do that was so bad? I've always thought of him as a good president. I've read some books and am not completely ignorant but maybe I am missing something???
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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I read an excellent book about that period and what TR set up... He was why the Japanese invaded Korea and tormented those people for many years. He actually put the circumstances in place that eventually led to WWII.
The book is "The Imperial Cruise". Opened my eyes to another side of TR besides the one we like to remember him for.... a not so good side... he was a rabid racist too.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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gumbyclimber: The Provincia of Buenos Aires is double the size of Washington State but you can't climb ANYWHERE in the province (legally) unless you can convince a landowner to permit you. The land was first largely divided up among the wealthy and powerful and then handed down and/or bought and sold over time. The part left over that was public was mostly given away or sold off at bargain basement prices to wealthy or powerful friends and associates of the politicians in power.
That sort of thing was going on in the US before Roosevelt stepped in. The definitive book on Roosevelt's contribution is Douglas Brinkley's "The Wilderness Warrior" :
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/23/books/23maslin.html?_r=0
it's heavy going, but worth it if you want to evaluate Roosevelt's contribution to the public lands in the US.
I like public lands, and the access and conservation that comes with that. Maybe Japan and Germany does OK without, but the Provincia of Buenos Aires has largely converted into a giant soy field, with a few tiny islands outside, because they are too wet or too rocky to make money off of right now. However, the limited access to these islands will readily disappear, if access conflicts with the owner's interest.
Filp Flop: sure we can talk. What do you have to say?
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2015 - 04:32pm PT
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Yea I kind of forgot about Teddy's national park deal. Of course public lands are being sold off by the neocons now. Ha
And I hear Hitler really liked dogs and (arian) children. Even nuts have a good side. :)
Sounds like Argentina needs to import the Shinning Path to set things straight.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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rockermike: I (almost) hate to say it but you are a slave to Goodwin's Law. Seek enlightenment!
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
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lol... Goodwin's law doesn't apply becuase this isn't a long thread yet. Secondly Goodwins 'law' is a piece of sh#t. Who the hell is Goodwin and why is his half baked opinion supposed to carry the day? What it implies is that hereafter no one can refer back the the most important event and personality of the twentieth century.. for the sake of highlighting certain traits or trends. No I didn't say Teddy was a mass murderer... but my point stands. Teddy's good doesn't make up for his racist egoistic war mongering. One man's opinion. Carry on :)
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gumbyclimber
climber
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I don't mean to simplify a complicated issue but who built Hoover Dam, Hetch Hetchy, and the TVA? Who has been better to climbers: the Yosemite Park Service or the Indian Creek Cattle Company? I know I'd rather deal with Heidi and her sons than the Yosemite rangers. The ICCC has certainly been better on the conservation front than the NPS.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Theodore Roosevelt was not the first president to engage in empire building, far from it.
I have been reading about early US history recently and from Washington on, the early leaders and their patrons engaged in speculating in land. This required an ever-increasing inventory of raw land, and it was available to the west, north and south of the thirteen colonies, provided one could dispossess the inhabitants, primarily native Americans, but also European settlers under the flags of Britain, France and Spain.
Examples:
In the revolutionary war, one of our first military offensives was the invasion of Canada in an attempt to acquire the lands to the north.
Thomas Jefferson, the great proponent of small government, presided over the Louisiana Purchase, adding to what he called an “Empire of Liberty”.
Aaron Burr, after his term as vice president and his duel with Alexander Hamilton, raised a private army in an attempt to seize Mexico from Spain in what was known then as a “filibuster”. This meant a private effort to take and settle land held by foreign powers, with the goal of eventual annexation of those lands by the US government.
Andrew Jackson presided over the cruel and infamous “Trail of Tears,” the forcible removal of native Americans from the southeastern US in order to clear the way for the use and sale of that land.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I already said Thomas Jefferson. But I didn't include his big
housing development. ;-)
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