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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 29, 2014 - 10:08am PT
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In the "Thread Deleted" thread it is mentioned that only threads of 300 or more posts are protected against deletion.
However this leaves many historical threads unprotected. For examples, look at the Stonemaster threads. No threads on Supertopo have more historical value than they do. But none of them reached 300 posts. So they are not protected and could be deleted at any time. And since deletion is made through an algorithm that targets the poster, the person activating the algorithm won't even know what he's doing until it's too late.
See for yourself. The last Stonemaster thread and links to the others are here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/173337/Stonemaster-Stories-Part-8-More-Tales-from-the-Crypt
Why is this? Because for many years Supertopo didn't separate longer threads into pages of 20 posts each. Instead ALL the posts of a thread were just on one big page.
Combine that with computers not being as powerful as they are now, and slow Internet connections (remember dial-up modems?) and longer threads could become difficult for people to follow. 100 posts was considered a long thread.
So when a thread got long (and remember that 100-200 was considered long) it was split into a second or third thread.
See this exchange:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=150211&f=0&b=0
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Russ Walling
Social climber
This space for rent
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 7, 2006 - 03:20pm PT
This is a splinter of the other massive and bloated thread.
Post new addendums to the original thread here on Part II.
Here is the link to the original thread for background:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=145850&f=0&b=0
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2006 - 03:34pm PT
Side note: Just so you don't miss anything, the post was split at 197.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
Feb 7, 2006 - 04:19pm PT
Yo Russ, the upper limit for me is 100 posts - any way to divide up part 1 for us dial upers?
Then there is the "List of Links to Historical Threads" thread
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1024035/List-Of-Links-To-Historical-Threads
Gobs of links to threads that were identified as being valuable and historical. The thread itself is 77 posts. I clicked on a a number of the links at random and every single one that I looked at was under 300 posts, usually by quite a bit. One only had 15 posts.
Hundreds of historical threads, including the Stonemaster threads, are less than 300 posts long and are at risk of being deleted. Thread length does not correlate to historical value.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 29, 2014 - 10:12am PT
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Good point. And whether a thread has 100 or 300 posts, if moderators delete all posts by one or more members, it trashes the thread. (Of course, sometimes a member will delete their own posts, but that's their prerogative.)
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2014 - 10:22am PT
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Good point. And whether a thread has 100 or 300 posts, if moderators delete all posts by one or more members, it trashes the thread. (Of course, sometimes a member will delete their own posts, but that's their prerogative.)
Yes, that's another important point. If I remember correctly, it used to be that users could delete any of there posts. A longtime poster left (I forget who) and deleted all of his posts on the way out the door, damaging many threads. After this they changed the site so you couldn't edit or remove posts more than a couple of weeks old.
Find a post you made 2-3 weeks ago and try to delete or edit it--you can't!
If I remember this was done to prevent people from trashing threads, so why would they do it themselves? Deleting all the posts of a spammer is one thing: they usually have made less than a dozen posts before they get caught and ALL of their messages are spam. But deleting the posts of a longtime user is something else.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
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http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=108666&msg=108738#msg108738
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Oct 16, 2005 - 10:11am PT
I suggested to Mac that the edit/delete option disappear after a week or two, so the interesting Supertopo stories and conversations can be retained in context, otherwise the deleters can make a thread completely nonsensical...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=118254&msg=118367#msg118367
RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
Nov 11, 2005 - 11:46pm PT
The Forum programming has been updated.
From now on, if you edit or delete a posted message it no longer has the effect of bumping a thread to the top of the list.
RJ
P.S. Deuce's suggestion of having posts only editable for a limited period of time has also been implemented. After 10 days, the edit button will no longer appear.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
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I thought this would be an opportune time to reiterate what I said in my first post at the top of this thread.
Most threads of historical value are of LESS than 300 posts and are not protected by the "we protect only the OP of a thread 300 posts and longer" rule.
Also, that rule still leaves threads of over 300 posts gutted and unreadable because ONLY the original post is protected, and so posts are still removed from the thread.
Maybe not too many people care about this, [u}but if you do care, please post below and let your voice be heard.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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I'd still like to see the post that CMac put out a couple years ago on his annual "check in". He assured us that although many people have asked about the storage security of all the history entrusted to his storage, it was very safe. I can't find it but that doesn't mean anything.
Anyway, in spite of his promises, the historical content doesn't appear to be very safe, does it.
Locker, although you have a common sense approach, I don't see how you can Copy & Save an ongoing, evolving site and its content. And wouldn't it take a long, long time and tons of storage (something like CMac must have) to "re-document" everything that's already here in place?
Arne
I suppose I'm gonna die now or get banned for asking these questions.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Look at the Squamish thread, 750+ posts gone. Just from one thread, a climbing thread. Many conversations within make no sense now and many pics and FA stories gone.
Yeah, but that's a small price to pay for getting rid of the evil Bruce Kay. He insulted The Chief, so whatever it took to get rid of him is worth it. Right?
Right?
Uh...
Honey, where's the baby? Wasn't he in the bucket with the bathwater?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2015 - 09:23pm PT
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Yeah, but that's a small price to pay for getting rid of the evil Bruce Kay. He insulted The Chief,
WHAT!? Tell me that wasn't who he got in trouble for insulting! "The Chief"!?
That guy (The Chief) is a walking, talking insult himself.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2019 - 07:09pm PT
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And here we are 4 1/2 years later. I guess the handwriting was on the wall back then and we should't be surprised now. But I am still shocked and dismayed at the casual destruction of these threads.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2019 - 07:15pm PT
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I guess that most of the good historical threads are gone now, and what are left are rendered almost unreadable due to mass deletions and the removal of hotlinked images...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:23pm PT
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Never saw this thread or the one referenced
Geez I still had my paper route
No fotos of leeper
Feb 28, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
Joshua Johnson:
I climbed in the Mission Gorge area twice at different times. The first time was in the late 50’s around 1956 to 1960. I found an old climbing guide that Werner Landry published in 1973 and it had a lot of names that I remembering from the 50’s. I was very young and could not join the Serra Club climbing section but they let me hang around and climb with tem. I grew up in Coronado and there were several climber living there at that time. They would let me catch a ride out to the Gorge when ever they had a climbing get together. They let me take the then required climbing test to be a member of the group. The test climb was on the Stairs a 5.3, I had to climb it as a lead and install pitons that would be tested by one of the members who would climb and clean the route.
Now remember the best shoe we used were old basket ball high tops a size or tow small. They worked ok back then. Some of the guys had fancy climbing boots as well.
One of the most remediable get together was the weeks end we all got together in Coronado at Bud Bernard’s shop that was then down by the old ferry landing. We spent the entire weekend making pitons and angles for the first accent of Half Dome that Jerry Gallwas, Mike Sherrick and Royal Robins were planning (1957). It was Omar Conger who showed me how to use the forge and shape the pitons. What a great time for a troubled teenager. I remember shaping a piton that had a lot like a spoon and Jerry looked at it and told me to make a bunch more just like it. So my only claim to fame is that I may have some old hand made pitons still in place on Half Dooms front face. Back then we made almost all of or own gear.
I came back to the gorge in the 70’s, I was just hiking up to sit and remember things from the past and ran into Marty Warner and his friends. We talked about my old times for awhile and they invited me to give it a go again. So I came into a much changed world of climbing. I really liked the no piton use rule and I began to make my own chocks and nuts. We used to go to Tahquitz and or Joshua Tree almost every weekend it was fun climbing in both of those spots. I think that I stopped climbing when Thomas left for Seattle to find a different style of life and Marty left for Arizona to work and climb. I know that he did a lot of first accents, but I can not find any record of him. In those days we just climbed with out regard for first or 100th accent. I know that I did several first accent, but who cares it was all about the climb.
I have gone on way to long, so I will just finish up with this page of words all started because I lost a very good friend and climbing partner and was just in a remembering mood. I can only wish for all you young climbers to find as much friendships and good times as I remember, when you are 74 years old.
Belay Off
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/173337/Stonemaster-Stories-Part-8-More-Tales-from-the-Crypt
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:26pm PT
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Well, yeah, but, speaking of Bruce Kay, he's a walking, talking, climbing advertisement for the fact that there is life after being banned from ST.
Still climbing, and still enjoying life.
There are climbers who, although in theory having much to contribute here, are just not suited for life on ST. Doesn't mean ST is horrible. Or that they should have stayed. Life goes on for them, and life can go on here.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 18, 2019 - 08:27pm PT
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These wonderful history threads I started, had all my ST-hosted photos deleted by management on 4/17
I received an email shortly after the photo deletions from RJ Spurier explaining that I had posted copyrighted photos on ST & as a result, every one of the thousands of photos I had St host since 2010 were deleted by management. I’m guilty as hell, but 98% of my photos were taken by me, & many of the alleged copyrighted photos were decades old.
This is a different issue from those who have to click on the hot-links to see their photos. Mine are gone.
I have now exchanged a single email with RJ, so there is always hope, but I suspect this is a lot like negotiating with God. Hopefully he will understand that those historical threads with photos are “money in the bank” for Supertopo.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 18, 2019 - 08:31pm PT
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Fritz - Whaal at least you got an ex post facto email
Anyway Fritz
Do you have copies backed up somewhere
I was formerly a computer manager
I had copies enough to make your head spin
We had offsite storage, on-site torage and at home (mine) storage
I got paid to resurrect a computer system to support a lawsuit once
I finally threw the 35 year old stuff out, not too long ago
Edit:
Good Fritz
You have the pieces that you built your superstructure on, maybe even the superstructure?
I backed up one thread from ST
The one that originally brought me here
Kinda got caught up in it thereafter but never backed anything up
Talked to mfm about how he could save his stuff
But he got too ill
Sad
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 18, 2019 - 08:47pm PT
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ZBrown! Per your kindly question:
Anyway Fritz
Do you have copies backed up somewhere
Thanks for asking. I'm also ass-deep in backed up photos, including all that ST management delteted.
They are currently without a lot of historic photos.
I keep thinking, "What were they thinking?"
But, there is a rich human tradition of destroying the village to save it.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 18, 2019 - 09:19pm PT
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zbrown! Sorry to hear that. I'm sure I'll discover something is missing in my archieves, thanks to the current short-sightedness of ST managment.
Happily some of my stories are hosted by the Idaho A Climbing Guide website, https://www.idahoaclimbingguide.com/contributors/ray-brooks/
But most are homeless. I put a lot of energy into posting those photos & stories on ST & then:
POOF!
They were gone.
Much like life.
Of course, one always wonderes what they did???
My last photo post, before my ST-hosted photos were all deleted, was this one.
Of course you're right!" I said, in my most convincing voice.
"I don't know what I was thinking, when I said let's climb that other one tomorrow."
photo not found
Missing photo ID#557872
At age 21 I learned the pissed off person uphill of you with a large rock is always right.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:50am PT
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I see the post that dug up CMACs annual check in post some years back has been deleted. This where he made assurances the historic content on this site will stay safe and sound. I can't find the post anymore.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 20, 2019 - 12:16pm PT
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In my opinion removing historical threads makes ST a more shallow site. Replacing that content with more active and current climbing postings might draw a younger crowd, however. And encourage older members to leave.
Somehow attempting to create historical Wikipedia articles as a replacement strategy simply will not work, except for very focused and relatively short pieces about well-known climbers of the past, like Harding.
For example, suppose a ST thread is about a local colorful character at Indian Rock, and his adventures with a small crew of fellow climbers over the years. If he's not been recognized by various media purveyors (magazine articles, books, commercial films, etc.) there is little chance Wiki will accept an article about him.
How many of you have developed articles for Wikipedia? I've done several. And how many have developed historical websites? Steve has a significant task if he wishes to develop his site, using all his accumulated material, including that from ST.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Apr 20, 2019 - 01:43pm PT
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plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose..
It's sad that this should happen, and so suddenly. There is a large amount of historical information, and semi-historical stories, here and there. But so it goes. The excellent stuff from Avery, Marlow, mtnyoung, DMT, tarbuster, and many others, is in peril or gone.
My disaster with Photo Bucket, IIRC seven years ago, illustrated to me the impermanency of the internet. Somehow my PB account got deactivated or removed, wreaking havoc on the Climbing at Squamish in the 1970s thread, and others. No doubt ineptitude was a factor. I have a pdf backup - about 25 MB - but that's just a record, not allowing for interaction or contributions. So in the end deleted the thread, and a few others that got mangled, and largely withdrew from posting. (There were other reasons.) And mostly now contribute to select threads of interest.
I was surprised to find that I still have some photos on ST, and did my best to delete all those that I didn't take myself. There seems no way to remove embedded videos, which may be as much or more of a problem. Anyway, if Chris and RJ want to remove all my posts, that would surely take care of it, and is fine with me. Que sera, sera
Ed Hartouni pointed out several years ago, to anyone who was listening, that all these electronic things are somewhat ephemeral. My sister, who was a head librarian, ran into the same problem – constantly changing systems and programs, always having to upgrade, not knowing what to keep and how. Technology can be a PITA, even without bully lawyers.
What I hope is that ST has all threads, including those that may be of a historical nature, cached somewhere, and at least accessible in private to those who ask politely. Likewise that there are pdf backups of historical threads, such as those tarbuster has made. (I have backups - I hope - of 29 Squamish related threads, although some may not be completely current.)
Must be a terrible nuisance for Chris and RJ, but at some point they had to pull the plug. Those who have resorted to insulting (or worse) our hosts owe them an apology.
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