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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 21, 2014 - 09:30am PT
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With the resulting suicides , it seems there was a curse involved with raiding the arch sites...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Sep 21, 2014 - 09:47am PT
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A tragedy all the way around. Too bad none of the Native Americans in the region were interviewed. I can understand their dismay at human remains being shoved aside to grab artifacts for money.
Another thing I wondered about was whether the authorities had really made it clear to local residents why they were not supposed to be collecting? Was it seen as just another rule by faceless bureaucrats in Washington, or did they really understand why those laws exist?
I could even see collecting a few things on the surface of the ground out of personal interest, but when money enters the picture, it's different, especially in an already wealthy country. Stealing artifacts is big business in Nepal as well, but the average income there is only $400 a year.
And lastly, I wonder how much American history and religion had to do with it - the whole history of conquest and the idea that God favored one group over another?
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coolrockclimberguy69
climber
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Sep 21, 2014 - 10:00am PT
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I remember this. What a f*#king mess. Plundering artifacts from sites is extremely lame but this was just so heavy handed by the feds.
No wonder all the people I know who visit many sites around the southwest are so tight-lipped about them. Thankfully, a lot of the amazing undisturbed sites are protected by long, grueling hikes.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sep 21, 2014 - 10:08am PT
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If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 21, 2014 - 10:10am PT
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Waiting for the Glanton reply...
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Sep 21, 2014 - 10:11am PT
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Bummers abound.
Doesn't change my attitude about Welfare Moocher Cliven one bit.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 21, 2014 - 10:37am PT
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Another glaring example of heavy-handed gubmint incompetence which only served to further
various careers at great expense to taxpayers. Was this of greater benefit than a thoughtful
public awareness campaign would have been for far less expense and trauma?
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Sep 21, 2014 - 10:47am PT
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so the anasazi didnt recycle?!?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Sep 21, 2014 - 11:02am PT
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Gary writes:
"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
But nobody did any time. Which is about right, because these were non-violent property crimes. Any punishment should be a slap-on-the-wrist.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Sep 21, 2014 - 11:22am PT
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So called "salvage archaeology" has been ongoing in the West since the 1960's, when the Interstate system was being built.
Example: in the early 1970's during construction of I-25 which runs North from Denver to terminate at a junction with I-90 in Buffalo, there were several important sites "unearthed" by the construction process. Fortunately George Frison at the University of Wyoming (and State Archaeologist) was called in to rescue and mitigate the buffalo-jump site as much as possible. The work lasted an entire Summer and kept several Graduate students busy for years thereafter. No human remains were involved, but several pickup loads of buffalo bones were salvaged for study of butchering marks from stone tools. Lots of other stone artifacts were also rescued at the time. The site was named the "Glenrock Site," for those interested in further reading.
Edit: The Glenrock site was discovered in 1969.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 21, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
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Blanding is a strange place. From north to south along Hwy 191:
Moab is a thriving metropolis.
Monticello is more insular, quiet, heavily Mormon but seems like a real community.
Blanding.... has always had a weird vibe of sadness, distrust; outsiders are not welcome. Never see anyone smile. The town sprawls for miles.
Bluff, south again, is a hippy outpost, friendly, as is Mexican Hat, friendly, welcoming.
Not sure why this incident from 2009 has been resurrected five years later. The town's problems go deep. My own take is that some (probably prominent) families in town have been quietly finding and selling native american artifacts for many decades; they know it's wrong (and now seriously illegal) but, rather than adapt, change with the times they just go more secretive, more sneaky, trying to cling to old habits, hoping for finding some prize item and making an easy quick fortune. Not healthy.
From a NYT article with a slightly different take:
“I don’t see what they’re complaining about with the handcuffs and everything,” said Mr. Keith, 54, adding that his son had run into trouble with the police that he felt was related to the fact that he is Indian. “That’s what happens when you get arrested.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/us/21blanding.html
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 21, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
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Fvcking entrapment.. Sh!t should be illegal. I don't agree with people stealing artifacts either, but the feds shouldn't be allowed to set you up like that.. Where do we draw the line?
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Sep 21, 2014 - 03:11pm PT
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Excellent post Crusher.
The LA TIMES really glossed over their reprise of this story.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Sep 21, 2014 - 03:31pm PT
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I agree with Big Mike this time around; using "illegally held artifacts" to run a sting operation, using paid informants is highly unethical, in my view. I don't believe the use of wired informants attempting to entice someone should be allowed. Neither do I approve of the "pothunter culture" found in the Southwest. If one happens to own the land upon which an artifact is found...finders keepers. Otherwise, let it lie.
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hashbro
Trad climber
Mental Physics........
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Sep 21, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
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Cliven Bundy is a cowboy booted, welfare rancher, racist idiot and anyone who supports him demonstrates a lower cognitive capacity. Mr. Bundy and his ilk are bullies and use their weaponry and hatred to intimidate, rip off taxpayers and trash public lands (much of it endangered species habitat) without reproach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90GLwuUixY4
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 21, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
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Where do we draw the line? at Anasazi ceremonial arrowheads and bones?
at cocaine?
at stolen artwork?
at financial fraud?
at government purchasing fraud?
at ISIS converts?
The law enforcement agencies use entrapment all the time.
Certainly it has to be used judiciously (double entendre intended) to retain the trust of the law abiding populace.
If real crooks get entrapped and they get pissed at the government, what did they expect?
Why did Jedd kill himself? Likely no one really knows. You might surmise he was humiliated that his and Jeannie's fine reputations had shattered. To get his kids off the hook? Maybe.
Then Schrader. I have to wonder what skeletons (metaphorical and real?) in his closet were buried with him?
Gardiner? Anyone's guess.
as for Native Americans pilfering burial artifacts, that's pretty low.
because these were non-violent property crimes. Any punishment should be a slap-on-the-wrist. How about embezzling funds from your church or a non-profit charity?
Maybe that's worth 500 slaps on the wrist?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 21, 2014 - 04:47pm PT
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As for supporting Clive Bundy?
Where was the entrapment?
Since when is it entrapment for the government to attempt to collect a court judgement?
Blunty very deliberately dug his own grave.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 21, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
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that's the current state of affairs as Bundy goes on the lecture circuit. You are indeed correct. Bundy has not yet been charged. I said he'd dug his own grave, not that he's been pushed into it......yet.
"The wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine."
Euripides 405 BCE
Or if you prefer the Bible
"Render therefore to all their dues."
Romans, XIII, 7
and very much out of context:
"Suppose he never commits the crime?" said Alice.
"That would be all the better, wouldn't it?" the Queen said. Through The Looking Glass, Chapter 5
The Feds will eventually collect on their liens and get their "pound of flesh" (Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice)
In fact, Bundy the idiot may get off any criminal charges. It's not clear which Federal crimes he may have committed. Unlike the militia whackos who clearly committed many. On TV, in front of state, local and Federal LEOs.
Looks as if Bundy's son committed a felony or two during the fracas.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 21, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
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I do not see the Bundy connection, but I understand that it is part of the anti-government talking points. If Bundy is their best shot then I am not too concerned about the seditionists getting much traction with the average citizens.
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