Malaysian Airliner shot down over Ukraine

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Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 17, 2014 - 10:41am PT
295 passengers plus crew..
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jul 17, 2014 - 10:49am PT
Whatever happened, that airline definitely has bad karma !
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2014 - 10:57am PT
No kidding there Jan. Our intelligence there is so active that we know doubt know what happened already- if it was a ground based or air fired missile etc etc. Tensions with Russia and the US are at a level as high as any day of the cold war now. This latest tragedy is confusing at minimum.
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Jul 17, 2014 - 10:59am PT
the majority of airlines have banned flights over this area. There is bad luck, and then there is recklessness.

on the political side - Russia has made their bed, now they can sleep in it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:02am PT
The FAA sorta predicted this

The whole area has been off limits for US carriers.

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2014/04/25/2014-09545/prohibition-against-certain-flights-in-the-simferopol-ukfv-flight-information-region-fir

The FAA has safety and national security concerns regarding flight operations in a portion of the Simferopol (UKFV) FIR. On March 28, 2014, the Russian Federation issued a Notice-to-Airmen (NOTAM) purporting to establish unilaterally a new FIR, effective April 3, 2014, in a significant portion of the Simferopol (UKFV) FIR. The affected airspace includes sovereign Ukrainian airspace over the Crimean Peninsula and the associated Ukrainian territorial sea, as well as international airspace managed by Ukraine over the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov under a regional air navigation agreement approved by the Council of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). This action by the Russian Federation contradicts international law, including provisions of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, done at Chicago, December 7, 1944 (also known as the “Chicago Convention”) and the standards established in Annex 11 to the Chicago Convention. Ukraine has rejected the Russian Federation's purported establishment of a new FIR within the existing Simferopol (UKFV) FIR and continues to provide air traffic control services in both Ukrainian territorial airspace and international airspace assigned to Ukraine.

In response to the Russian Federation's actions, Ukraine established a prohibited area over the Crimean Peninsula for flight operations below flight level 290 by means of a NOTAM and closed various air traffic services (ATS) route segments. The Russian Federation further responded by the issuance of a NOTAM that rejected and directly conflicts with Ukrainian NOTAMs concerning the establishment of the prohibited area and the route segment closures. On April 2, 2014, ICAO's Regional Director for Europe and the North Atlantic Regions issued a state letter to countries and their civil aviation authorities highlighting the possible existence of serious risks to the safety of international civil flights. ICAO stated that, due to the unsafe situation where more than one ATS provider may be controlling flights within the same airspace from April 3, 2014, 0600 Universal Time Coordinated (UTC) onwards, consideration should be given to implementing measures to avoid the airspace and to circumnavigate the Simferopol (UKFV) FIR with alternative routings.

In the FAA's view, the potential for civil aircraft to receive confusing and conflicting air traffic control instructions from both Ukrainian and Russian ATS providers while operating in the portion of the Simferopol (UKFV) FIR covered by this SFAR is unsafe and presents a potential hazard to civil flight operations in the disputed airspace. In addition, political and military tension between Ukraine and the Russian Federation remains high, and compliance with air traffic control instructions issued by the authorities of one country could result in a civil aircraft being misidentified as a threat and intercepted or otherwise engaged by air defense forces of the other country
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:09am PT
It did occur to me that this might turn out to be similar to the Korean Airline that was shot down years ago over the Kamchatka Peninsula. It turned out in that case, that the pilots had been routinely flying over Russian territory to conserve fuel and then received a kickback from the savings.

Who knows? Maybe what this country needs is a new Cold War? I don't see us achieving unity under any other circumstance.
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:13am PT
ooops, Russia F@#KED UP!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:15am PT
Let's invade! Bombs are the answer!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:16am PT
What is really frustrating about this latest incident is not knowing who to direct my hate at. Until proven otherwise I will hold 6 year hold illegal immigrants responsible.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:17am PT
Wow! Just got a good deal on Malaysian airlines: San Francisco to Bangkok round trip $30.00 US funds and first class.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:22am PT
From a previously reliable source over at Rantburg.

#9 People I know say the "rebels" got a Buk system in June. That has the reach 18000m. And the leader Strelkov said this morning "We warned Ukraine not to fly in our skies", and about an hour before the reports came in, rebel forces were claiming a shoot down of Ukrainian aircraft.

Inexperienced crew can make serious targeting errors, and without proper command discipline its entirely possible to target civilian airliners.

In other words: the rebels did it, and they did it with Russian supplied weapons which required high level political approval, this blood is on Putin's hands, and on the hands of the savages of people who encouraged the rebels with bigoted nationalistic bullsh#t.
Posted by OldSpook 2014-07-17 13:47
Jodie

Sport climber
Oregon
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:39am PT
"the 80's called and wants their foreign policy back" :p
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:39am PT
Malaysian pilot has some culpability flying over a war zone
where 2 other aircraft shot down this week.






crankster

Trad climber
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:40am PT
Terrible.

The right-wing conspiracy theories should be starting soon.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:53am PT
What insanity. Vice magazine runs a series called Russian Roulette: Dispatches from the Ukraine:

https://news.vice.com/topic/ukraine

It's worth watching them all to get a feel for the madness that is going on there.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:56am PT
It is beyond me why anybody, especially Americans, were still flying with these clowns.
What sort of good deal is worth your life? They were on the verge of
bankruptcy anyway and you were likely to get stranded somewhere when they
folded their wings, so to speak.
locker

climber
STFU n00b!!!
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:58am PT


"Let's invade! Bombs are the answer!"...


LOL!!!...

Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 17, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
Malaysian pilot has some culpability flying over a war zone
where 2 other aircraft shot down this week.

More so the airline's flight planning and dispatch departments. the pilots have little to no say over the routing, and even the speeds that they fly. It is all optimized for min cost, and I guarantee fuel savings was a factor in flying the route that they did.
locker

climber
STFU n00b!!!
Jul 17, 2014 - 12:01pm PT

They for sure saved fuel...


Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
Which makes Malaysian airliner company the true culprit here. Dumb as dirt is the phrase that comes to mind.
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