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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 21, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
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If you drill it fill it right??
I've been thinking about this for awhile, and v's thread inspired me to post.
Batholes are artificial difficulty at their finest. They're hard to find, and when you do, hopefully the edge is still there. So what do you do when it's not? Drill a new hole? Till what, the whole rock is swiss cheese?
It might as well be a bolt. I know you're trying to avoid the security of a bolt, but manufactured is manufactured. If you don't wanna see a line of bolts on your aid climb, don't pick a line without enough features to make it work.
Yes i've never hooked one in my life.. Lol
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Apr 21, 2014 - 03:43pm PT
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those effing things are hard to find!
I figured the F.A was too lazy to finish "filling" the hole.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Apr 21, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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Bolt holes and bolt ladders makes me think chipping holds should be totally legit too. I mean where do you draw the line...
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 21, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
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Troll.
And, no, Batso was not lazy.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 21, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
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Bathooks are a last resort IMHO.
Often on an FA, time and effort are against you. If it is a ladder, rivets, bolts and holes do the trick, alternating when necessary.
The problem with most bathooks is that the user is pulling out the wrong hook. Harding used a modified hook, that had a horizontal nose that fit all the way in the hole.
Nowadays, most people use a talon hook or leeper ball point, which will blow out the hole in time.
I know you're trying to avoid the security of a bolt
Not necessarily, Anything drilled is SECURE in aid climbing. Most times it is out of lack of psych to drill deeper for a rivet or bolt. On a drilling pitch, you do what you can to make it to the belay, in good enough shape to drill fat bolts.
As to your OP question, I would not place a rivet unless the hole is unusable, in which case, try and contact the FA for his/her thoughts.
Most people have no idea how hard it is to complete a full pitch, with drilling, and nailing and cleaning, then have to drill an anchor. Bathooks and other fun stuff become very attractive to a leader after hours of being on lead.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
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Yes, i'm a troll! Lol
Thanks Mucci. What do you think about the longterm? Even if people do start using the right hooks, the hole will degrade eventually. What about 20 years from now when there are a lot less faist's around??
Time and place for these discussions is now.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 21, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
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Not too worried about any modern Big Wall FA's getting repeated very much.
A good example of that technique is Continental Drift. It's on EC, was put up by Gerby, and has seen one repeat.
Many bathooks exist on that route, As Pete and the brits documented how hairy it was. As the author of many EC FA's, Gerby has used different techniques on different routes, as the lines show their true path. Hell even Pete was shocked.
I have never drilled a bathook, But agree if I were doing something really good that was destined to classic status, I would do everything in my power to make it sustainable.
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TLP
climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
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Totally agree with Mucci about the reality of the work it must take to get to the end of an aid pitch that has any significant drilling (not that I've ever done it, but can imagine).
I also totally agree that bathook holes get trashed because people use whatever hook they have (e.g., Talon) instead of a proper bathook. The old Chouinard hooks, which were crummy for hooking but perfect for modification into a bathook, just aren't around. But it is not very hard to make a terrific bathook out of 1/4 or 3/16 steel rod, bent at 90 degrees at the one end and into a clip-in loop at the other. Easy, cheap, not very heavy, preserves the hole.
But I disagree slightly with this part:
//As to your OP question, I would not place a rivet unless the hole is unusable, in which case, try and contact the FA for his/her thoughts.//
This would theoretically be ideal, but is not realistic when you're 1000 feet up and there's a crapped-out hole in front of you. You have to do something right then. Maybe you have a cheat stick and there's something reachable, maybe not. But if not, once you're there, is there any other reasonable option than to drill the hole a bit deeper and put a rivet or 1 1/4" bolt? It doesn't change the hole count and doesn't greatly reduces the challenge or commitment on an A3 or 4 pitch.
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Rocky IV
Social climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
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I see no problem with drilling out bathook holes and putting in a 1/4 buttonhead, not that I've had to do that. On routes where there are bathooks I'd consider it irresponsible to not bring along a drill and split shanks in case there was a blown out hole. Saves the rock in the long term...
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Apr 22, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
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Just bring yer suction cups
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^
Basically... Lol Are these rivets you guys speak of stainless? If not it's just another time bomb.
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 22, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
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Oh, man...a 5/16" diameter hole with a BD Talon is 'bout solid enough to fall on, seriously.
 ec
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 22, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
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There are differences, unless we say there are no differences. Then in that case "what's the difference" means I get to do all manner of nasty things to the existing climbs in the world.
Avoid modification of an existing line if possible. Get FAs thoughts. Use different hooks. Get creative.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Apr 22, 2014 - 05:17pm PT
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bath hole = city jerks!
The problem with most bathooks is that the user is pulling out the wrong hook. Harding used a modified hook, that had a horizontal nose that fit all the way in the hole.
still sounds pretty lazy why not just slam a bolt in and move on!
harding was not lazy I hear ya!
I always like rivet latters with bathooking to clean things up!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 22, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
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I was a bit surprised to learn that Talons degrade the edge of a Bat Hook hole that much, but I've had to use them so infrequently that I've had too little experience to see for myself. My own feeling was that if a shallow hole is getting unusable, drill it out and put in a proper bolt, rather than starting a new hole.
If I get around to doing the Firefall Face this year, as I hope, I'll let you know how my proposed ethic works in practice, assuming the original Bat Hook holes are still there.
John
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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Apr 23, 2014 - 07:47pm PT
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People still aid climb?
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Apr 23, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
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Hey what's the deal with those climb tech anchors? Did nobody even notice upthread or are those things old hat?
They look pretty cool to me. What would be wrong with using those things in place of bolts in really good quartzite? Just drill and leave. Would that be pretty stupid?
Arne
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Apr 23, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
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Big Mike,
One concern would be whether the bat hook hole in question was placed on the first ascent or by someone lacking the skills or fortitude to nail or hook that passage on a subsequent ascent.
Putting a rivet or bolt into a hole that was added later would only exacerbate such ethical decline.
If it's an original bat hook hole, fill it with a stainless rivet or bolt and if it's not original, fill it with epoxy.
Speaking of bat hooks and rivets, when we did the Hockey Dawn (circa 1980?), I was horrified to run out of rope in the middle of the sideways ladders and find only one miserable 1/4" Rawl in a sea of rivets, some of which I could pull out with my fingers.
Hard to contemplate Harding and Caldwell and a mountain of scheisse hanging there on that lone bolt and a bunch of rivets.
Needless to say we put in a couple more 1/4" bolts, which seemed beefy enough at the time.
PB
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 23, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
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Why the need to fill with a bolt? Especially from here on the ground.
bolts are qualitatively different than a rivet, and rivet is way different than a bathook. Any drilling is artifice. Why not keep to the characteristic of the climb as is, or the nearest closest thing?
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