Draws on cams?

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Bad Climber

climber

Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 19, 2014 - 09:45am PT

Just readin' a thread over on Mtn. Proj about a fall off a crack (basalt) in which several BC X4 cams popped. The poor bugger grounded and broke his back but appears to be recovering. So far best money seems to be ton the likelihood that the cams were either placed perpendicular to the crack and/or levered up and then failed when they rotated as the climber fell.

I'm pretty cautious about rotating pieces, but if I'm climbing straight up and can step past pieces effectively, I'll sometimes not bother putting a draw on my cams. It seems from this accident that perhaps I'm in error and should always put a draw on to limit possible movement? What say you?

BAd

Spider Savage

Mountain climber

The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles

Apr 19, 2014 - 11:19am PT

Whatever happened to runners?

When I learned to climb for the Royal Robins books in the 70's I religiously put a runner of the appropriate lenth on every placement. Bolts were rare and usually got a short runner.

Slowly runners disappeared.

Perhaps "modern" climbers don't understand the concept.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Apr 19, 2014 - 12:08pm PT

When I learned to climb for the Royal Robins books in the 70's I religiously put a runner of the appropriate lenth on every placement.

me too, but that was largely because the nuts and hexes we placed could be pulled out by rope tension if connected directly. The runner made that more difficult to do. We also learned to place multiple pieces and use the runners for "directionals" to decrease the possibility of rotating the nut out on a fall. Some placements wouldn't work without the directional.

The apparent solidity of a cam placement and the presumption that single cams are "bomber" seems to have replaced the elaborate rigging schemes from the nut/hex era, unfortunately. I will still put two pieces of protection in at the beginning of a piece of climbing that I might have to run it out on, so as not to depend on a single piece should I fall and load that piece with a bit more force than usual. This is a natural outcome of learning to protect with nuts/hexes.

Also, I have an esthetic that enjoys seeing a rope make a continuously straight line between the belayer and the leader as possible, avoiding the rope-dragging zig-zagging of too short, or entirely absent runners between separated placements...

ruppell

climber

Apr 19, 2014 - 12:35pm PT

People still use runners guys. Sometimes I'll even hitch 2 together to get an even longer placement. lol. What I like to bring is 6 alpine draws and 4 over the shoulders with a single biner each. I've almost never had issues with rope drag this way. Some days I'll even forget my sport draws and have to use my runners and alpine draws on sport climbs. Sporties look at them like "That'll hold"? lo

philo

Trad climber

Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?

Apr 19, 2014 - 01:27pm PT

You mean this thread isn't about graffiti on gear?

phylp

Trad climber

Millbrae, CA

Apr 19, 2014 - 01:59pm PT

I will still put two pieces of protection in at the beginning of a piece of climbing that I might have to run it out on, so as not to depend on a single piece should I fall and load that piece with a bit more force than usual.

good advice from Ed.

In one of my old Tahoe guidebooks, there is a description of a basalt crack area where the author specifically warns that the fine grained basalt in this area had been known to cause cams to "slip" more than in other rock. Perhaps that was a contributor to this accident. I'd be interested in people's direct experience with this basalt phenomenon.

Personally I almost always add a sling or a quick draw to my cam placements unless the line of travel is directly straight up and down. But I've certainly never done a controlled experiment about whether this is better or not, this is just the way I was taught.

slabbo

Trad climber

colo south

Apr 19, 2014 - 05:21pm PT

I have very rarely added runners of any kind to cam placements..if so it was usually a long sling for a change of direction.

Flip Flop

Trad climber

Truckee, CA

Apr 19, 2014 - 05:54pm PT

I'd say that basalt columns can have low friction, uniform cracks and few rugosities. Good placements should be as vertical and deep as possible with room for slippage. Over-caming and shallow or horizontal placements would be more likely to move or slip.
I'm not a route developer but it seems that bolted 'protectable' basalt routes are common in the Truckee River Canyon. I never felt very confident in basalt placements but I'm not an authority.
In short; Make 'em count.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Apr 19, 2014 - 06:10pm PT

This is why I buy Friends.

Screw the hard metal crappier angled BDs

Al Fylak

Mountain climber

Rochester Hills, MI

Apr 19, 2014 - 06:10pm PT

Some cams like DMM have longer built in slings. This could be enough for a straight up and down route. As always, you have to look at how the rope in pulling on the cam. It is hard to generalize. With experience comes good/better judgement. With rigid older cams, I would be more inclined to add a runner. Also in desperation to get something in, it is easy to skip the runner. Sometimes this is a mistake but can save energy that could prevent a fall.. All trad gear is a bit of a gamble .. same sa climbing in general .. never totally safe.

fluffy

Trad climber

Colorado

Apr 19, 2014 - 08:07pm PT

I put draws on every placement every time

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Apr 19, 2014 - 08:15pm PT

When I learned to climb for the Royal Robins books in the 70's I religiously put a runner of the appropriate lenth on every placement. Bolts were rare and usually got a short runner.

When I'm doing gear climbs at least half of my "draws" are tripled up slings that can extend to full length runners. How else do you manage rope drag at the very least?

Caveman

climber

Cumberland Plateau

Apr 19, 2014 - 08:26pm PT

Several years back a climber showed me how a friend could be removed from a crack with a pull with rotation in it. The friend was a #4. Don't know if smaller units could be done the same. This was in a horizontal crack but the thought was that it could occur in a vertical situation also.

Ham and Eggs

Mountain climber

Aoraki/Mt Cook Village

Apr 19, 2014 - 09:16pm PT

Make sure the cam is 'set' truly, for deserved confidence
Build a mini-anchor like one -would a belay if things are about to run-out
Use slings/runners and/or a double rope system to run the rope straightish as Ed recommends. Too much traversing - time to build a belay. There's a tendency to keep going till the rope runs-out - it's not always the best option.

I like your 70m rope approach Ed, it gives you more options.

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Apr 19, 2014 - 09:48pm PT

It is such a personal decision and what I love about trad climbing. It is a little like calculus to place good gear but placing good gear over the course of a pitch can be done many ways in most places. Climbing in places where you have to be creative helps a lot in my opinion. A really talented free climber may get away with crappy gear a lot but some day it may have serious consequences. Also a good idea of math, geometry, and physics can give you a realistic expectation of what will happen when you fall.