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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 27, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
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Hey Folks... Got asked today if I could make custom ice axe picks. Any thoughts on what material is generally used? I've got a CNC mill and a programmable heat treating oven, so it's really just a question of material rather than hardness/tempering.
Anyone have an insight?
Thanks!
-aric.
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Rocky IV
Social climber
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Jan 27, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
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Talk to Dane Burns. If you could make some Armet picks I might buy a set.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
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rSin- What I meant is I'm well aware of the metallurgical and manufacturing aspects and all the appropriate equipment (including forging, if push comes to shove), and really just want to know what materials are generally involved. Assuming not your basic cro-moly, but maybe an S series tool steel or armet as mentioned above? Not looking to get into this sort of thing on a big scale at the moment, but was asked by a friend if it was possible so looking into it a bit.
thx anyway.
BTW, seems she's currently climbing on picks from http://krukonogi.com/en/ice-drytooling/picks.html?compatible_with_axes=9, and has heard (but not found) them to be brittle. She says they use armor plate, which sadly is as descriptive as "steel". :(
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Jan 27, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
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cobalt
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Jan 27, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
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Matter of taste, I suppose.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 27, 2014 - 10:41pm PT
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Try here
http://www.matweb.com/Search/MaterialGroupSearch.aspx?GroupID=224
the 4000 series are probably your best bet, but the 8600's might work out good to. They might not be available in flat stock like some of the 4000's though.
The 8620 machines as beautifully as 4160, but a bit tougher. Never milled it though just lathe work.
I'd think it would be too difficult to avoid developing to brittle a core with some of the tool steels, plus they are a lot more expensive.
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OlympicMtnBoy
climber
Seattle
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Jan 28, 2014 - 12:28am PT
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I'm not sure exactly out of what, but when you figure it out can you make me a couple of these for my Ravelitk tools? http://grabcad.com/library/raveltik-cascade-pick-head Otherwise I need to find a new eastern european gear shop that will take credit cards or paypal and ship to the US. It was a bit of a hassle last time.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Jan 28, 2014 - 12:38am PT
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Interesting Russian web site selling the custom picks. Even better if the quality is high enough. Suspect if someone using them is already asking, it isn't. No pick weight holes either on the Nomic picks.
Forging seems to be the time proven metalurgy for modern dry tooling. For all the obvious reasons. Grivel, Camp and Petzl being the stand outs.
I have no doubt there have been, but I have never seen a broken, modern Petzl pick...ever. Bent? Sure. But nothing broken.
Recent BD Lazer pick spec: cut from 4340, .178" plate. Blanchard ground, heat treated to rc to 40-44, normalize, harden, temper, rack or hang to reduce warping .
Their failure rate over the years and the resulting redesigns of shape and added material to prevent it, legendary.
Checked the prices of Aermet or any of the martensitic alloys lately?
Worth noting the original Aermet BD picks earned a reputation climbing ice...not climbing mixed ground or dry tooling.
$55/60 @ retail is a steal by comparison IMO.
Fun project, good luck!
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2014 - 01:22am PT
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heres the next question then
since youve been asked for custom... whats the deficency of market available pick ends your friends trying to solve?
rSin- Troll elsewhere. kthxbye.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Jan 28, 2014 - 01:32am PT
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"... whats the deficency of market available picks is your friend trying to solve? "
Conversations go both ways.
Seems like a legit question to me. So again, "why?"
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2014 - 01:37am PT
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Rocky IV- I don't do ice, and have no idea who Dane Burns is or how to find him. Any hints? Feel free to PM.
TGT- I know matweb well. More looking to see what is commonly used for this before going digging for new options. I think the 86xx family is out, as I don't think I've seen anything with more than 20 points of carbon, and I'm not about to shell out for a custom multi-ton run at a mill for a couple prototype picks... :)
RDB- That's exactly the sort of info I was looking for, and fits with my recollection re: BD. And yeah, coming from a manufacturing background I have to say $50 retail is more than fair. Which is why I'm looking at this as friend covers material, tooling, and sufficient beer to cover my time, and they get fully custom picks to play with rather than trying to make a business of it. :)
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jan 28, 2014 - 01:53am PT
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^ adatesman Rocky IV- I don't do ice, and have no idea who Dane Burns is or how to find him. Any hints? Feel free to PM.
RDB is Dane Burns. Long time climber, engineer, and tester extraordinaire.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2014 - 02:58am PT
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Ah, Dane is RDB. Thx! Had read his blog on occasion, but couldn't place the name.
"... whats the deficency of market available picks is your friend trying to solve? "
Conversations go both ways.
Seems like a legit question to me. So again, "why?"
Legit perhaps, but frankly whenever I notice a post from rSin it's trolling. I may be wildly off-base on that, but fits what I recall seeing.
Anyway, as for why? No idea. I'm simply the guy why has a hobby of making stuff. I've never done the ice thing and have desire to give it a try (shattered an ankle in a clean fall on rock, so no thanks to trying it again with sharp pointy things attached). The friend who asked is pretty into it, and her husband even more so (in a traveling the globe on the World Cup sort of way).
I was merely asked if it was possible, and am looking for a bit of guidance on materials to shorten the learning curve before delving into the particulars of whatever they have in mind.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 28, 2014 - 06:32am PT
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Petzle nomic with stock picks is one of the best ice climbing tools in the world. only matched and perhaps surpassed by the Cassin X Dream. the area that the Nomic still holds supreme over the X dream is rugged reliability And sureal performance. The X dream has sureal performance but the reliability has not been fully tested yet as the tool is so new. Messing with the Petzle pick may be good entertainment for you but will perhaps be one of the more useless endevors you have gotten involved with. Pretty darn hard to improve on Perfect.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2014 - 09:35am PT
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More useless than taking up golf, Tradmanclimbs? :)
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Jan 28, 2014 - 11:29am PT
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Say adatesman:
I know this isn't what you were asking, but do you know how much effort and cost is involved in cutting the top of an old 1955 pickup truck (it's rusted through)and welding in a new one?
BTW have you ever run across Ada Tesman? Supposed to be a real cutie, but no photo can be found. :)
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Rocky IV
Social climber
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Jan 28, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
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I have friends who have broken both nomics and X-dreams, All modern tools are going to be roughly similar in terms of reliability. Both tools had the heads loosen after pounding pins. The X dreams didn't have a hammer, the nomics did. Petzl didn't warranty the tool because they said that hammering pins will break your tool.
My buddy with the X-dreams just duct taped the pin in place, he hasn't asked for a replacement yet.
I've bent petzl picks. Current generation BD picks are probably plenty sturdy, the fact is that BD hasn't redesigned the pick/tool interface in something like 20 years. Shitty 20 year old picks with inferior metal will fit on current generation BD tools. I suspect that's part of the reason why there are so many reports of BD picks breaking.
Tangent over.
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 28, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
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every jobs got its own hammer
Yeah I suspect that is why the picks are something like 90 dollars a pop, even after he began working for Grivel...
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