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MisterE
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 20, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
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Skip hiked into Echo Cliffs
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/echo-cliffs/105825729
early this last Saturday morning to do some rope-soloing. As she reached the creek-bed, she came upon an encampment on the big flat rock that is at the base of the Grotto. There were several tents and camping gear set up on the slab, and they had dragged a huge pile of branches directly onto the trail – she probably woke them up thrashing around and moving the stuff out of the way so she could actually get to Left Flank and every other area.
A Hispanic couple emerged from one of the tents. Skip greeted them in a friendly way (all the while thinking: WTF is going on here?). She continued on and started to set up at Left Flank for a while but could hear more people waking up and they were getting a bit loud and disruptive, and obviously NOT CLIMBERS. She got a bit wigged out since she was alone, so she headed down to Easy Street to do some soloing there.
About an hour later a couple of climbers showed up at Easy Street and finding Skip there, said “Did you see the campers and the CAMPFIRE that that camping group started?”
She was aghast – that is what the pile of brush was for?? It’s 100 degrees out and it hasn’t rained here in a year.
They couldn't believe it - the whole friggin’ canyon is a tinderbox death-trap.
The climbers said they had given a polite heads-up - “it isn’t a great idea to have a fire, and there are big fines involved” – that is all. Not confrontational or negative.
That’s when one of the big guys at the camp got belligerent and told her she couldn’t “tell them what they could do”, and after they left and went climbing at Java Wall (within visual proximity of the camp) The aggro-big guy continued yelling and screaming repeatedly at them as they were trying to climb. At this point they had a large dog roaming around as well.
They decided, like Skip it was time to move further away.
The fire was really the most serious issue.
Upon meeting and talking to the couple, Skip decided to hike out and call the local ranger James as soon as soon as she could get to his phone # (which was on her phone in the car). She had seen one car in the parking lot when she showed up way early, so she was going to call in the license - knowing it was the campers.
Skip was just as polite to them on the way out - told the group to "have a nice day" (fully intending to rat them out). It seemed that they had actually put most of the fire out as she left – so maybe some gravity of the situation had sunk in? At this point, she saw a number of extra people and a big pit bull running around off-leash. They weren’t packing up. It looked like the group was there to party for the weekend.
The climbers must have figured out how to get a hold of the park service, because Skip ran into James and two back-up big-guys hiking on the trail back to the parking lot, all geared up to break up the party at Camp Homeboy. She filled them in on the details. A segment of the trail conversation:
“Hi, James..uh you guys heading down to the Grotto?”
"Hi, Skip. Is there something going on I need to investigate?”
“Yup… There are some campers. They started a campfire and were belligerent and confrontational when someone said something."
“That is why I am late – I needed to wait for some back-up after I got the call - (indicates two large rangers flanking him) – is there a Boxer?”
“It’s a large Pit Bull.”
“Are you SURE it is a Pit Bull?”
“Yes”, (says the woman who grew up working at pet stores), “it is a Pit Bull.”
“Was it at least on a leash?”
“Of course not!”
Evidently things got exciting after this. James and his crew were able to sneak down, hide and watch the group for a while, observing them chopping branches to feed some future fire apparently for after those bothersome climbers left, and etching stuff on the rocks while the dog ran around unsupervised. The ranger-posse finally confronted them, and made them pack up. It was a big group of out-of shape people, so it took them over 2 hours to get them up the gully and back to the cars...during the hottest part of the day. Helicopters were buzzing the site, and the fire department was called in to make sure the fire was completely out.
Keep in mind, all of these people (including the campers) had to hike out the Backbone Trail, then some steep 4th class descending to get to the site, then do the return trip - all this in 100-degree temperatures, fully geared, with little reprieve from the sun.
I am just guessing here, but there were some unhappy people coming upon this crew besides the climbers.
The climbing-couple unfortunately overtook them on the trail when they were leaving (because they were so slow, and it was so hot) and had to deal with some angry confrontation with the campers since they knew they were the ones that called the rangers.
I can count at least five violations:
1. Illegal camping
2. Unpermitted fire
3. Off-leash dog
4. Defacing Forest Service Land
5. Illegal vegetation cutting
Additionally, I am sure a good lawyer could make a case for:
6. Reckless Endangerment (In that if the fire had spread, everyone in that canyon would be at risk of death by fire – being the only way out is past the flash-point.)
What a crazy day – how do these inner-city people find these places?
The alternate title for the thread was “Echo and the Burly Men”
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 20, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
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Wild story. I've seen weird stuff like this but not quite this bad.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 01:10am PT
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I'll bet you they got off basically scot-free.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Aug 21, 2013 - 01:19am PT
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the end already happened.
so stop fretting.
there is no hope for progress or enlightenment.
just enjoy the inexhaustible slide unto genetic maturity.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 01:23am PT
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Why do you hate inner city people so much ? Do they rat you out when you go to the ghetto ? At least they were trying to enjoy the great outdoors. Facist...Eco-facist
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 21, 2013 - 01:33am PT
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There's a huge divide, and seemingly no way to bridge it. We lost one of the best climbing areas in Washington because a group of people couldn't accept that the world wasn't theirs to do whatever they pleased with.
In our case, what they pleased was to tear up roads, trails, and forests with their off-road vehicles.
What was weird was that they were completely unreachable. That their pleasure resulted in the destruction of watersheds and logging roads was irrelevant to them. Meetings, DNR involvement, logging company involvement... all for naught.
I suspect the people Skip met had the same mentality. From their perspective, they were just out enjoying their god-given right as Americans to do whatever the f*#k they wanted to do, and they probably can't understand why she (and the other climbers, and the Law) was upset.
How do you deal with that?
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 01:34am PT
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OMFG,
Rwedge do you even know what you're talking about? This area is so f&$$( dry they could have set the whole sm mountain range on fire. Had no business being in there let alone camping or starting a fire. This enrages me as well - regardless of where these ass$$@& came from it's infuriating. If I were skip or t,his other couple I would have bolted immediately but good on you guys for calling the authorities. Problem is these morons will probably go right back in there. Is the outcome of this (fines, legal action, etc.) public info? I'm curious as to how it's dealt with.
Edit- this has to do with more than just climbing access....
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 21, 2013 - 09:51am PT
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It's a large Pit Bull.
Are you SURE it is a Pit Bull?
Yes (...) it is a Pit Bull.
Ya sure it wasn't a Mexican Pit Bull (Chihuahua)...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Those lil' suckah's can get really Midievil on ya!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 21, 2013 - 10:07am PT
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That was a frightening thing for a young maid to have experienced, let alone Just the Maid.
Hispanicism has everything to do with it, typically, at least in SoCal. Nobody was playing the race card till you mentioned it--jeesoos reestos, meester.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Aug 21, 2013 - 10:17am PT
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It was just a surreal situation. I wasn't really frightened.. just concerned.
I actually never would have ratted them out just for doing a little guerilla camping to hang out and party. The issue was the fire, their attitude about it and the threatening behavior and destructive tendencies that followed. (This is Federally protected wilderness).
If these guys had just stayed low key everything would have been fine and they would have had a fun weekend. I used the description "hispanic" in my story to Erik because that's what they were. They weren't "climbers" like you would expect and given the makeup of the group it just seemed odd they even found the place somehow. I'm hispanic myself BTW... There's no hate for the inner city... people have a right to be outside and have a good time....I'm just not proud of how some of my peeps feed the stereotypes.
Ghost.. it is a cultural divide. There are simply different mindsets out there and you can't do much about it. You can, however keep people from torching a mountain.
RWedgee.. you have absolutely no concept of how insanely stupid it was to start a fire in that canyon. I grew up just a few miles from there. VERY steep old-growth sagebrush, lots of hillside homes. Last time a fire burned through there 20 years ago it was totally devastating to the wildlife for years. All of those campers would have been dead if a fire got out of control.. there's just no escape on foot.
Edit to add.. I heard later the campers were un-cooperative about providing ID's. I suspect the rangers will have trouble actually prosecuting or fining any of them in the long run.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 11:14am PT
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I saw this campfire high in the San Gabriels last week. Gee, what could
possibly go wrong here? And there were any number of similar ones within
a 100 yard radius.
Anybody who goes up any of the San Gabriel drainages on a holiday weekend
can only be sickened by what they see in terms of trash, campfires, diapers
floating down the creeks, etc. And when confronted the perps either get aggro
and self-righteous or are incredulous that they are doing anything wrong.
Just talk to a ranger up there.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 21, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Aug 21, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
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Egads!^^^^
I don't believe we can rely on Stephen to karate-chop any terrorists for us at present.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Aug 21, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
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Dogs are supposed to be on a leash at all times in this particular park. Once you get a ways from the road it's difficult to enforce and a lot of people let them run loose.
The dog being off the leash conversation with the ranger was sort of funny at the time... just a week before we were chatting and he was rolling his eyes about the kazillion "OMG!!!someones dog is off the leash" phone calls he gets every weekend.
This dog owner was having to bear-hug his pit with full body weight to keep it away from me... all the while telling me how "friendly" it was.
Edit to add: in defense of a couple of the campers.. the first two I ran into were actually very polite. It was their buddies that woke up later that started rabble-rousing.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
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Yikes! I would not want to try my chances to outrun a fire in that terrain. Pretty much impossible, better luck trying to get in the middle of a big rock and hope for the best.
Glad you didn't get in a face-to-face showdown with the folks.
I must admit I thought this was going to be about a climbing epic on AC Devildog or something at Table Mountain near Jamestown.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Aug 21, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
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Nuthing wrong with saying hispanic, it's just stating a fact. In the greater Los Angeles area the hispanic community takes full advantage of the surrounding wilderness. Some do it in a more responsible manner than others just like some white folks. The problem is cultural, I spoke with a hispanic friend of mine last week about the vast amounts of trash and literal crap in the San Gabriel River drainage and she told me it is a cultural issue, she says she was ridiculed by her cousins for throwing trash in a trashcan and for cleaning up after a picnic on the East Fork of the San Gabriel River several years ago. I used to kayak the West Fork and East Fork of the San Gabriel River and witnessed firsthand BBQ's being dumped in the river, diapers thrown in the river and kids spray painting on the rocks as I floated by. I was reluctant to speak up because frankly I'm a bit of a wuss and was an easy target floating down the river. Speaking with a ranger afterward he said that it's just the way it is and all they can do is try and educate. I have a feeling that the next generation wont treat the environment quite as bad and am hopeful it is true.
This is not just a hispanic problem, if you head over to the East Fork you will find plenty of white redneck hillbilies tossing trash in the river and digging up the river looking for gold.
As Skip stated, the fire is the main issue. We are in a critical situation in So Cal in regards to fire threat. I'm heading to the Sierras next week and the last thing I need is to be recalled back to work because some knucklehead decided to have a campfire on a 100 degree day.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
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I can only add that one should assume some of these fools had firearms with them.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
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The fire there, together with a seemingly hostile group of people, certainly would have terrified me if I were alone. I hope that the actions of the campers arose from ignorance that gets corrected as time passes. I fear, however, that the campers will simply ascribe the incident to innate hostility of the authorities and/or the climbers.
I have to agree that certain socioeconomic strata of certain ethnic groups have a culture of outdoor use vastly different from mine. Sad to say, though, the culture of "The rules don't apply to me. I'll do what I want." transcends easy socioeconomic categorization. Reading the threads that attempt to deal with climbing ethics should convince the reader of this. If nothing else, the facts you set forth in this thread stand as a reminder of why the mountains still need LEO's.
John
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Aug 21, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
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The approach now entails about an extra 800 vertical feet of road hiking.
Horrors. Guess you'll have to buy a Segway.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
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I'm not ok with them camping at Ecko - it's illegal for one thing. And Skip is right - had they started a fire they most likely would have perished there.
The mess caused by so-called "cultural differences" and/or just plain old idiots in the Angeles National Forest, San Bernardinos, San Gabriels and all over So. Cal is atrocious. Unfortunately there isn't enough money for the "authorities" to properly fight or regulate it. It's incredibly frustrating.
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