Werner, destiny or fate

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Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 12, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
On my thread about... well you know

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1983368/OT-two-non-climbing-issues-that-bug-me

Werner, you wrote...

John Wayne didn't enlist or get into the military because it wasn't his destiny.

Everyone is destined to go a certain way in their life.

We don't have full control .......

I often wonder that. Control of our destiny.

Are we left to the fates or do we control of our destiny, or a bit of both.

I have pondered, and it gives me a headache.

Yoga, meditation, exercise... they help.

But I still have this feeling, do I have control of my life?

Why didn't I get up the Salathé Wall the first time (because of the two idiot partners, but did fate have anything to do with meeting up with them?)

Why am I near broke? (That's an easy one, my stupid mismanagement of my monies.)

Why did I meet Jennie? A woman I love but also have to put up with her medical condition. Couldn't I have met a more healthier gal who likes the outdoors, climbing etc? But then, if Jen had not hooked up with me, she probably would be dead by now, her doctors concur with that assessment. And she is too fine a woman to be leaving this world. Did fate have something to do with our meeting?

There are so many, perhaps too many, instances in my life where I wonder if I had control of my destiny, or the Fates did.

I contemplate... my navel, my life, my climbing ability.

But I do not have to contemplate my love for life. It is there. The eternal optimist.



John M

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
Both

You have Karma from previous lifetimes
You have world Karma from the world that you live in
You have your own life plans that you made before you came into this lifetime
You have your choices in this lifetime
Plus, you have the choices others make


All of these things work together to make up your existence and your experience


World Karma plays a bigger role then people realize. You can be a nice guy and be born into a world where everyone else is involved in a world war which will limit your choices in this life.

Oh.. and there are those who know how to dodge karma, or get others to take their karma. Those folks are just plain evil. Dick Cheney is a karma dodger. One day it will catch up with him, but for now he is still wealthy even though he is an evil sh#t.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
Destiny AND Karma are a load of crap.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Nov 12, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
Choice.

Far different than either destiny or fate.

Once one makes the choice to do something, then destiny and fate can do their part.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
John M and The Chief, I like your contributions. May be not helpful in a sense, but...


Captain or Skully... negative, but I respect your opinion.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Nov 12, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
hey there say, patrick...


so as to leave god, and how i belief out, so not to be preachy, though, you can always ask later, if you want, and i would share, :)


think of it kind of like this:

LEADING toward something success in this life:

the destiny part is like gravity, etc, principles that obviously work
a certain way...

then, choices, as to how we choose to handle our life, as to (in this case, for example) gravity...

we either DO things that co-operate with it... respect and work with it, and the 'destined outcomes' in one way, come to pass, but then, too, the actions or reactions to our actions, also come to pass, as well...

there is like a 'whole picture' thing going on, that is 'fine tuned' spiritually, to our physcial being that lives here...


leading toward something UNsuccessful:

then, (for example, too, just using gravity, since it is so easy to see), there is the complete utter non-care for how 'gravity' works... destiny, in this case, come to pass in an obvious way, as to what bad choices would do... or choices made by never caring to seek out knowledge, etc, before making any, as to how one 'deals with gravity'...

:O

many times the 'whole picture' would never even get a chance, and it would not be the 'spiritual aspect' fault, as the outcome, here, then...

LASTLY:
the who we meet, and jobs we get, and all the etc, that connect with all this, many times have something to do with how they connnect to our inner-feelings and learned-ventured, and coaching, experimenting, and what we believe deep inside that we really want-or-are seeking, from all we've gone through, and who we think we are... (or at least, so far have learned what we really are)...
edit: yet, because of how destiny of (in this case) gravity worked out something, THERE was the someone, something, etc, THERE when it 'belonged there' (so to speak) and then--time for the NEXT choice, etc, etc,...

not sure if this helps??
you could find other examples, too...


ooop, the lastly, kind of makes it more complex, huh?
but human are complex, at times, :)

Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
Not negative at all, Paddy. I'm quite positive.
I just don't waste energy on False constructs. I have just enough energy to waste on Reality.

John M

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
Its just a word Captain..

Before science, folks called the accumulation of your choices your karma. Does science even have a word for the accumulation of your choices?

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
endeavor to persevere,even if it is fate,how could we control it,....luck ,as we have it,is best wished, good luck, pat and stay chuffed
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
If we have a destiny then we have no choice. We are just watching our lives unfold before us.

Boy does that sound like something a serial killer might say when asked about the guilt they feel for their heinous acts.

No responsibility means no guild but also means there is no requirement to try... to do anything. No reason to be a better person if being a jackass is your destiny I suppose.

Dave
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
Dick Cheney is a karma dodger. One day it will catch up with him...

If it catches up to him then he is not dodging his karma at all. Or is there a rule that dictates when karma reflects back on you and messes up your life because of the crap you did? Is it days, weeks, or just a few years?

Dave
WBraun

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
Karma is just activity.

In every field of life we enjoy the results of our work, or we suffer the results.

There's nothing mystical nor constructed about Karma at all.

Karma is totally material in its nature.

Everyone is either suffering and or enjoying the result of their/our own destiny.

We the conditioned living entities create our own destiny during this life and that destiny is transferred to our next life.

Of course modern science, the atheist, the Christians and others will all disagree and say one life only and you're toast, finished and become zero.

Christians will say one life only heaven or hell.

This is only due to poor fund of knowledge, not faith or belief.

The embodied living entities (us) will suffer and enjoy according to our destiny.

The intelligent class will remain equipoised thru all enjoyment and suffering.

Extremely difficult to do especially in this day and age of hypocrisy and quarrel.

This is why free will and choice is extremely important.

These two, free will and choice, can get the living entity out of the cycle of birth, death, karma and destiny when properly executed.

Modern western consciousness has lost this knowledge due to its total materialistic focus only .......


John M

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
If it catches up to him then he is not dodging his karma at all. Or is there a rule that dictates when karma reflects back on you and messes up your life because of the crap you did? Is it days, weeks, or just a few years?

Yes, in the end there is no way to absolutely dodge your karma, but you can put off the end results for a time. Putting off those results for lifetimes is what some call karma dodging.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
Fate and/or destiny are IMO both a product of choices we make.

The individual must initiate the action/behavior prior to the forces of either to take effect.

One can not have either if they assume the non-action position.

The complete control aspect comes from the initial choice to proceed and then one must adjust their sail as the winds of fate and destiny start blowing. Then one has some control but not total as to what the results may be.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 12, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
equipoised thru all enjoyment and suffering,...yeah man
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Nov 12, 2012 - 07:22pm PT

If it's Werner it has to be destiny. . .
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 12, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=984315&msg=984498#msg984498
No hands, man!
No hands, man!
Credit: Peter Haan

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/984500/THE-WERNERS-LUGWRENCH-CHRISTIANS-PREPARE-TO-WALK-ON-WATER
Werner's Knife Skills!
Werner's Knife Skills!
Credit: FISH™ Photo Archive
His choice is to amaze us with his amazing amazement at our amazing stupidity.

John M, in respect to science, not sure, but I could see death, "the mundane word we hate to think on," as the sum of our life's choices. In that we are all equal. Mother Earth.
MissJ

Social climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
Why did I meet Jennie? A woman I love but also have to put up with her medical condition.

Patrick, you don't have to "put up" with her medical condition .

I would like to think your good character is choosing to stay by her side and treat her with dignity and respect because of your love for her.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 12, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
So Dick Cheney's evilness was acting in concert with people that deserved bad karma, he was like the Zen Teacher hitting the deserving over the head with a bomb or some anthrax.
The Iraq war was destiny for all those that deserved their fate.

How do they (the Karma Masters) keep it all straight, it's good to die if you have alot of Good Karma built up?

So many questions???

Is there a Karma Bank??
And you can borrow and pay into it?
Or does it come down to destiny, and no matter what you do, it doesn't matter, destiny will dictate your future
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Nov 12, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
Act as if, with intention, and free will emerges.
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