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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 28, 2006 - 02:19pm PT
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I see your name on the FA List in the Reid guidebook - it appears to be a solo ascent.
What can you tell us about it? What transpired in your life in the ten years since you guys climbed WOS?
I see some fearsome-looking "A5 hooks" pitches. Yikes! More crumbly stuff?
I also see a ton of rivets [an observation, not a condemnation! See previous references to Rom.!]
How did the climbing community perceive this? Similarly to WOS? Has it been repeated?
We've got you here and willing to write, so I'd love to hear the story when you have some time.
With thanks,
Pete
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Apr 28, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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Been repeated at least once(two 19 year olds from europe). And looks like the Valerio Folco guy may have soloed it.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2006 - 02:39pm PT
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Ooooooh, ouch! [Not you, ouch!]
The Reid topo shows Winds of Change joinging Hole World just below HW's 11th belay.
Hole World from there is A1, then 5.8 and A1, then a 4th class chimney, then a rivet ladder to hooks, then another rivet ladder. There doesn't look like much need to drill, Eric?
Has Hole World seen a second ascent? What makes you believe Richard retro-drilled? Have you seen for yourself, or did someone tell you? If so, who?
Richard has been extremely forthcoming with everything he's written, so I'm sure he'd be prepared to answer truthfully. So Eric, tell us why you believe what you write above.
Thanks.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Apr 28, 2006 - 02:47pm PT
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I mean f*#k if they counted head and hook placements... no way he would f*#k up on the number of rivets and bolts. Even the reid guide shows like 2 more bolts at one of the belays when comparing topos.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2006 - 02:48pm PT
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Fair enough, Klaus. That's why we're asking.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2006 - 03:07pm PT
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Bwah-ha-ha-ha! Even on the free internet translation, you can understand what Valerio means here:
Most likely “if you fall you gods” but the passages is not extremely technicians. A lot of drilled hooks.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 28, 2006 - 09:56pm PT
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Wow, a lot has happened since I went to get my car serviced! This is a provocative thread, isn't it? Blood in the water, and all, it seems???
I'll start by discussing what I can without, as Klaus says, having the topos in front of me. Actually, I have just moved into a new house I built, and finding those topos amidst boxes and construction gear will take some time. That's not a punt, it's just a forewarning that I'm going to be disinclined to discuss certain things in great detail until I know the facts.
First, thanks Pete for the vote of confidence about Mark's and my forthrightness. As you can relate to, I'm sure, I hold my soul far more valuable than any reputation bolstered by lies and intentional misrepresentations.
Let me also say that however Winds of Change is judged, that should not affect any assessment of Wings of Steel. I view these as totally separate threads about totally separate ascents (particularly since I did WoC solo), and I will resist any attempts to conflate the two climbs. Philosophies and tactics on one were not the same as philosophies and tactics on the other.
Ok, in keeping with what Mark and I had learned was common practice at that time (long after WoS), I did drill-modify a number of hook placements on WoC, so that I could have a more run-out route than we were able to on WoS. I don't know what the quoted "lot" means, since most of my hooks were not drilled. But, unlike on WoS, on WoC I did actually use the tip of the drill to create small pits behind some more marginal flakes. I don't feel bad about it, and anybody trying to claim that it was not the common tactic of the time is, I believe mistaken, as I have talked with many FA teams who were employing that tactic on much less marginal hooking than is found on WoC.
Now, to address Klaus' comments. For any detailed reply, I would like to see the topos to which he refers. If I take his argument correctly, what I hear him saying is something like this: "I've looked at Jensen's WoC topo and at my own topo. Jensen's has more 'X's on it than mine where the two overlap. So, Jensen added bolts to my pitches."
I believe that this is the basic jist of the argument, and it all hangs on the mistaken idea that the topo I submitted to SAR had a one-to-one correlation between 'X's and drilled placements. However, another thing that Mark and I learned over the years is that nobody submits such topos. A long rivet ladder might show 4 'X's on the submitted topo. So, after WoS, we never submitted another topo of the detail that the WoS topo had. The WoC topo was no exception. So, what Klaus has to be saying is that he has a one-to-one accurate topo of his route, and my topo shows MORE 'X's, which implies that I have more holes.
I'm just wanting to point out the obvious weakness of this line of thinking before I simply say that I'm not aware of adding any holes to any of his pitches... except for one spot, which I will explain at this point.
There is a spot toward the end of the Orange Peel arch where Klaus describes a pendulum. I vaguely remember reaching the point where a sling (on what sort of placement I don't remember now) denoted a pendulum into a crack to the right. My recollection now is that there was the possibility of a few more natural placements to the right, which put one within pretty close proximity to the same crack, but of course much higher up on it. I remember thinking something like, "Wow, it's pretty lame to avoid three or four drilled placements with a pendulum." I find cleaning pendulums a pain, and it didn't seem worth the hassle for such a short one. So, yes, I added (I vaguely remember) three or four rivets to reach the crack rather than perform and clean what I took to be a fairly ridiculous pendulum. Call it the "Jensen variation" if you like, but I won't apologize for it, because to this day I think the pendulum was lame (no personal attack on you, Klaus, as I'm sure we simply have a difference of opinion about the lengths we will go to avoid a hole). To me, the less contrived and obvious way to get to that crack was a few drilled placements.
Now, I have seen many pendulums that I thought were glorious and necessary additions to a route. But this one struck me as the most ridiculous way to avoid a few holes, and I simply wasn't averse to making that pitch end more directly.
If people find that judgment call the height of an ethical violation, well then, smite me. In this case, I'll just smile and say, "Well, all the frothing doesn't change my mind that the pendulum was a waste, and the pitch is much better now without it." Furthermore, little variations to pitches like this have ever been done by other ascent teams; I can think of one pitch on the Sea that has two separate variations, one of which as I recall adds drilling. The bottom line is that if people want to do WoC, they can go direct to the crack, and if they want to do Hole World, then they can do the pendulum. Let people decide which they think makes more sense once they get there.
Of course, it's been my experience that "making the most sense" is not how climbing decisions are evaluated by the community. It's always more a function of who knows who, and of who gets offended.
Regarding the other supposedly added bolts, I have no idea what we're talking about, and the "comparing 'X's on topos" argument doesn't get off the ground (no pun intended).
One final point is that Klaus assumes that I was the 2nd ascent party of Hole World, but that area is sewn up with variations of variations, and I submit that there is no good reason for having much confidence in that assertion.
Bottom line is that I honestly don't believe that I added any holes to existing pitches, except to bypass that pendulum. I would like to compare topos, just because now I'm really curious where exactly Hole World goes and on supposedly how many holes. I will work on finding my WoC topo, and then I can comment more accurately and in more detail.
Regarding the supposed second ascent, Valerio Folco claims the second ascent, and I have no reason to doubt it, but I have only found on the Net one article about any team trying the route, and they didn't make it. I can't find that article now, but it was also in Italian (somehow the route attracts Italians???), and the translation was spotty. However, they did refer to being scared a lot and finding a lot of hard hooking. They made mention of some drilled hooks, and that strikes me as about right. The hooking is much more run out than that of WoS just because I had adopted the ethic of slightly pitting the worst edges.
Long and short of the matter at the moment:
Let me compare some topos, and let's see what route overlaps we're even talking about.
Yes, there is some drilled hooking on WoC. No hiding and no apologies on that point.
Yes, I added a few holes to bypass what I took to be a pretty useless pendulum. Again, no hiding and no apologies on that point.
Regarding any other added drilling, I don't belive so, but until I can see the areas we're talking about, I can't know for sure if I inadvertently blundered. That's possible, but I think unlikely.
Finally, even if I (solo) botched WoC (again, possible, but I think unlikely), that doesn't reflect upon WoS or upon Mark.
I take any charge that I substantially changed the character of a route very seriously, so I too would like to get to the bottom of it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 28, 2006 - 10:00pm PT
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Well, I already see from the Folco topo link that my memory failed about what was the pitch with the drilled variation to the pendulum. Topo shows that to be the 10th pitch, while I had remembered it (without topo) to be the Orange Peel pitch.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 28, 2006 - 10:33pm PT
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How hard is it to pull those Zicral rivets, if they are bad? Were those used on WOS, too?
Edit: This is the English version (translation website) from the root directory of the Valerio site. I don't speak Italian very well, but this translation sure cracks me up.
PTPP - if you want, I can go through this translation and fix the inscrutables.
Beta
Pitch 1: To go back in free "Captain Hook". 5.7 on the left and 5.9 to right; however it is for nothing banal all and due.
Pitch 2: A5 but second me A4R. Shooting technical on plate leggermente supported where they are put alone hooks and heads. A lot probably "if you fall you die" but the passages are not extremely technical. Many drilled hooks.
Pitch 3: According to me A3R. Un shooting that me e' piaciuto a lot perche' chases one series of solid scagliettine much not to couple with the hooks. Impegnativo Artif and fall potentially pericolosa.
Pitch 4: If it were not for rivetti Zicral that is much dangerous this shooting would be a shooting of A2+ to the maximum perche' from enough simple the technical point of view e'. A good free passage and job copperheading in in order arriving in pause and the made game e'. They give under to the roof not going to right in order to take the two rivetti up but to go up instead on the left and from a hook spalmare the feet in adhesion in order to take the pause; interesting passage above all if made in solitaria.
Pitch 5: A5 but second me not piu' of A3. The hooks in order to go to take the groove vertical they are not thus banal and they are inframmezzati from passages in free. Then heads and aliens until the sosta.
Pitch 6-7-8: Artif classic on drilled hooks, heads and aliens.
Pitch 9: Shooting interesting on subdole sections and expanding. The second pilastrino completely unglued from the wall is opened sped up from the expansion of the cams of the friends. Artif where it otherwise must have experience us makes badly of large even if the degree e' only A2. The passage in free before the pause I have resolved it thus; from the last protection (a coppehead) I have worn the scarpette and I have given 10 meters abundant of motivatings force to the Gri-Gri dopodiche' have left in adhesion on for this rampa of merda all svasata launch to the hole of the piastrina of the bolt of pause. Voila'
Pitch 10: Beautiful shooting classic on friends and Aliens with some heads in means. Last shooting from salted me before the arrival of mega the perturbation that it has forced to me to the reduction.
Pitch 11-19: I do not have you go up therefore I maintain them the difficolta' originates marked them on Big Walls di Don Reid.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 28, 2006 - 11:01pm PT
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Well, guys, I'll be out of town for the weekend. Just letting you know so that you don't think a multi-day delay with no response posts is me avoiding anything. I'll keep being forthright to the best of my ability.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2006 - 11:21pm PT
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Thanks, Richard. Certainly Klaus will have more questions for you. What of his comment that you put a bolted belay in the middle of one of his A1 cracks?
I don't know what the current thought is about enhanced hook placements. I get what you were doing to make it sporty. To me, it seems something like chiselling head placements - you keep it sporty without adding a rivet, and still try to take advantage of the natural weakness. I don't know if this extrapolates to hooks or not, so I would like to hear from others more worldly than me.
I can tell you I don't think it's cool to have rivetted across a penji, though! Imagine if someone did that say on the Nothing Atolls of P.O. Wall, or maybe the Rubber Band Man or what have you? What makes a penji lame? Couldn't one say it's lame to rivet across it because one doesn't like or want to do a penji?
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Apr 29, 2006 - 01:16am PT
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So penji's are lame and rivit ladders are NOT lame?
So hard to keep up with "what's cool".
Has anyone made the King Swing cool yet?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 29, 2006 - 01:39am PT
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Ray Jardine made the King Swing cool 8-)
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Apr 29, 2006 - 02:13am PT
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What would Walt say?
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Apr 29, 2006 - 09:36am PT
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"What would Walt say?"
Well, it would start with a bunching of the eyes, a long slow draw off a beer, and spitting on the ground. Followed by a string of descriptive expletives mostly concerning parts of the female anatomy. Then would come the part lawyers would call "incitement to riot".
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Hmmm... people treat me adding a few rivets to the tenth pitch like this is unheard of and just OH! So VERY bad! Yet, it's very interesting that on the second ascent of the Sea, Bill Price felt no compunctions about adding a bunch of drilling to do the "Price is Light" variation to avoid the "9-5" pitch climbing. Then, somebody else added a variation to THAT that included yet more drilling! Very respected and respectable climbers have been doing this forever, so why single this particular incident out for special note?
I have a thought experiement for you....
Imagine you come to a spot five feet of blank from the start of a new crack above you. Instead of a single rivet to span the distance to that crack, you see where the FA team did a penjii down 120 feet and over to a ledge, from which they traversed 100 feet across the wall, from which they climbed up 250 feet of wide, grungy, dripping cracks, to make another penjii back into the base of the crack that is now five feet away from you. Now, is it reasonable for you to perform a single-rivet "variation" of the FA team's heroics?
If you say, "NO WAY! Whatever the FA team did is sacrosanct," then I say that such a response is unreasonable and is also ignorant because it is NOT supported by a LONG history of Yosemite climbing.
However, if you say, "Well, maybe in THAT situation, then, yes, a single rivet would be reasonable," then I say that you have no PRINCIPLED stand to make, but you instead just admit that it's all a judgment call.
I personally think it's all a judgment call. In general (and by that I mean in the VAST majority of cases), I am a firm believer in just leaving routes the way I found them. In particular, there are routes (like those mentioned as examples in posts above) where the penjiis do much to DEFINE the character of the routes. The penjii in question here, however, is not in that class.
I personally thought that this particular penjii was pretty ridiculous, and I bypassed it with a few holes. Smite me! Honestly, does this judgment call justify special condemnation? As I said on the fourth WoS thread a few moments ago, the very fact that Mark and I are even WILLING to answer questions and stand up to some scrutiny is now being used by some to act as license for special condemnation.
The phrase to remember is simple: tempest in a teapot. Where are the threads bashing Price for drilling on the Sea??? "Ancient history?" Yeah, like this is! "Pointless discussion about Price?" That's right. Because, unlike me, if he heard you applying this level of scrutiny to his actions, he would just flip you the appropriate gesture!
Now, regarding the supposed drilling higher up, as I said, I'm not yet in a position to respond to that, but when I can, I will. And, I will be as honest as I can be.
Meanwhile, let's try to get a little perspective and look at things in the context of the long history of climbing.
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Chill OUT, Jensen.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Yo, easy for YOU to say! lol
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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I've got a great idea. YOU answer the questions, and I'll just sit back and enjoy evaluating how you did. rofl
I LIKE that idea! Should have thought of it before.
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