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Ben Rumsen
Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 15, 2003 - 01:25pm PT
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I had used these in the past, especially on an aid 1st ascent in Kings Canyon many years ago where anything else would have ripped a fragile flake right off the wall. I've become re - acquainted with them recently, and they seem like indispensable gear for clean aid ascents. I'm even thinking they would work in place of cam hooks where some of us arent thrilled about running things out. What are your thoughst Karl or Chris ( or other experienced clean aid climbers )? I'm thinking I need a few more on my rack.
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Bloodynipples
Big Wall climber
The Mountain Room Bar
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Apr 15, 2003 - 01:38pm PT
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My partner got one of the smaller ball nutz stuck really bad on this expanding flake at the base of the grey circle on Zodiac a few years ago. I told my partner to place the black alien, but he inisited on placing this thing.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Seattle
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Apr 15, 2003 - 02:07pm PT
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I have had really good luck with Ball Nutz. They seem to allways get me out of a tight spot when nothing else short of a small arrow or knifeblade will work. I think they are key peices for clean aid that is C3 or harder.These were critical peices that allowed us to do the Zodiac (nipple pitch) clean, inverted cam hooks probably would have worked too, but my partner would have nailed first...
The best sizes are the tiny blue one, and the red....I carry two of each. I don't use the gold one as much because small cams usualy work instead.
I place these as sort-of a "last resort" peice, because they are fragile and hard to clean, nearly impossible to backclean. If the cleaner is not experienced with them, expect them to get thrashed.
They can be shifty, so bounce them good and make sure the ball is seated well. Have fun!
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Apr 15, 2003 - 02:09pm PT
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Have folks found the WC Zeros to be good substitutes for the Ball Nuts?
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Ben Rumsen
Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2003 - 02:16pm PT
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Thanks Lambone. That sort of validates my opinion so far. I guess I won't get the larger ones. Melissa, Ball Nuts are so much narrower than any cams as far as I can tell they seem to work where even a 00 TCU won't fit because it would be too wide.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Apr 15, 2003 - 02:24pm PT
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I haven't used Ball Nuts, but I've seen them listed on topos and looked up the camming range to see how it compared to my Zeros. The range for the smallest Ball Nut is 4-6 mm. It's listed as 5.5 mm for the smallest Zero. Besides the smallest placements that require the 4mm piece, I was wondering how common it is that a Ball Nut will work in places where a cam will not.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael
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Apr 15, 2003 - 02:28pm PT
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People seem to love them or hate them. I've used them more than once to eek my way through C2 cruxes. I think it's a great piece to have on the rack. I've talked to Chris about them. He seems to think they are more spooky than CamHooks. Too many walls...he's a bit twisted in the head. ;)
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Lambone
Ice climber
Seattle
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Apr 15, 2003 - 02:29pm PT
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I'm curious about the zero's too. From what I've seen in the shop, the smallest Zero's look to be about the same size (thickness) as the small Ball Nutz.
However, I wonder if the Ball Nut has more surface area aginst the rock, and more holding power? The Zero's are probably eaisier to clean, but also easier to over or under cam.
What do you think of them so far?
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Apr 15, 2003 - 02:52pm PT
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I think the "you" was addressed to everyone else, but my impression thus far with the smallest two is that I've never found a placement that was smooth-sided enough to make any use of the camming range. They have unusually small spectra slings though, and I've girth hitched them several times to pins with really small holes when ordinary webbing wouldn't go through. It's an expensive way to buy webbing though...
Some friends of mine were trying to do ZM clean, but didn't finish it. On some of the C4 pitches that would otherwise be nailing cracks, they found them indispensible.
I guess it depends at least partly on the level of clean climbing that you are trying to pull off.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Apr 15, 2003 - 03:43pm PT
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I have three sets of Lowe Balls (I'm thinkin' they are pretty much the same thing). Nice for thin cracks. They can get kinda mangled from use, or just being on a rack in a pack (wire can get bent so the ball will be out of position, but, easy to bend back into the "sweet spot").
Have used the smallest one on thin aid in desert sandstone. Worked surprisingly well (ie, it didn't pull out or shift). Can be hard to clean, especially if a big feller (ie, me) bounce tests them aggressively.
I've only fondled the WC Zero cams, but, I think Lowe Balls probably work in narrower placements, and a bit less torque in a vertical seam as the unit is centered right over the ball, rather than spread out on an axil.
Brian in SLC
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Roberto
Big Wall climber
Blacksburg, VA
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Apr 15, 2003 - 04:37pm PT
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I've got both Zero's and Ball Nutz. The ball nutz will sink in some of the weirdest pin scars that I've seen. I've had them stick where I couldn't get a cam hook or brass. They just stick like champs. On the other hand I think that the Zero design is one of the best on the marked for the larger sizes. I really don't like standing on the small ones 1 and 2, but the rest are bomber. Personally I'd rather use the ball nutz, but both are very good.
Rob
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Denver
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Apr 17, 2003 - 06:05am PT
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I found the big ones really handy in really wierd sawed angle scars when I tried the Sundevil Chimney on the Titan. I tried everything else on my rack that was red alien sized, and only the big ball nut worked though it was a way spooky piece. They are really easy to fix though - if you want a free one go get the medium sized lowe ball we left up on pitch 4 of Phantom Sprint in the Fishers a few weeks ago.
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spacemonkey
Big Wall climber
sweden
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Apr 17, 2003 - 07:51am PT
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Zero cams are really good, but they do get stuck quite easy. I used them on Mescalito last year and we probably placed them about 10 times on that climb. I beleve that the 00 is very fragile and will eventually get thrashed while cleaning. Ball nuts are good in the smaller sizes, I only use the smallest yellow one and itīs perfect when nothing else will work!
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Apr 18, 2003 - 03:00pm PT
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I like the ball nuts because of the surface area vs. small cams. One pitch on Muir was almost exclusively leapfrogging Ball nuts. I'd much rather take a whipper onto a ball nut than a tiny SLCD. For walls, a double set for me, please.
Brutus
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clustiere
Trad climber
running springs, ca
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Apr 23, 2004 - 02:21am PT
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ball nuts rule
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10b4me
Trad climber
103rd & Central
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Apr 23, 2004 - 12:14pm PT
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hey Guido I see you from sacramento. are you really ahnold?
anyway, back to the topic. I've used ball nuts and like them. never fallen on one though.
I once heard Jeff Lowe say "it takes nuts to use a Lowe ball".
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Apr 23, 2004 - 01:25pm PT
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Anyone know who first came up with the idea for Ballnuts? I was talking to a cat called Fig in C4 back in the day. He said the idea came to him while he was trippin, by smooshing a hackysack against his cupped palm. Don't know if this is true but it sounded good
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Apr 23, 2004 - 02:50pm PT
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Personally, I hate cam hooks. I avoided them and only used them a few times on the Zod last fall, even though some people called them indispensable. This might change with more experience, but I always will place a ball nut if both will work. Problem is that they get fixed easily.
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TedC
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Apr 23, 2004 - 05:00pm PT
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Ball nuts have two major things giong for them over a micro cam. Surface Contact and Expansion Range (the #3 ballnut has the same range as the Z1,Z2,Z3 combined)it's like 2:1 range. The increased surface contact reduces the chance of blowing out the rock (especially soft stuff). The better expansion range means that they are less likely to blow/invert/umbrella when heavily loaded and things start to shift/move/deform. I'd take a fall on a ballnut over a micro cam anyday. Ballnuts do need to be "set" to hold well as opposed to a cam where the "cam angle" develops enough force to hold. A ballnut is pretty sketchy in a hard parallel crack. It just doesn't have the right angles to develop the outwards force it needs to hold. They can be ahrd to clean though. The shallower the better in this case cause you need to be able to pound on the thin back side of the nut part. On the larger ones you can sometimes hook your nut tool behind the ball and kind of "funk" the ball back out of the nut.
Ball nuts - occasionally indespensible.
TedC
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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Apr 23, 2004 - 06:58pm PT
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"Can't say" asked: anyone know who first came up with the idea for Ballnuts? My european patent EP0047232 published march 1982 was the first patent for a spring-loaded double-wedge. Metolius was later with their Slider (US Patent 4572464, from 1986) but theirs was the first product on the market.
Later learned that both Yvon Chouinard and Charlie Porter had tested similar designs about five years before me. But maybe I was first to conceive the refinement with a rounded groove in the wedge to permit stable placement also in flared cracks? This refinement is shown in fig. 3 in my euro patent.
http://l2.espacenet.com/espacenet/viewer?PN=EP0047232&CY=ec&LG=en&DB=EPD
Click on B1 in the line "requested patent". You need Adode reader to see the drawings.
The specific design for the ball and groove in the Ballnuts presently on sale is shown in US Patent 4834327, filed 1987 by Steve J. Byrne.
Incidentally, I never made any money whatsoever on my patent. Expensive fun it was.
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