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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 25, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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Apparently the Forest service has decided that YOU need to be watched, in case YOU commit a crime. The area I mention below is too high up in elevation to grow pot, too far out and inconvenient for meth heads to set up a lab.
My personal story is this: Just last Feb., I was up hiking solo with my 2 dawgs into a remote new climbing area to look around and see what winter looked like up there. I came driving out on the single lane dirt road and bumped into an forest service patrol vehicle coming my way....something in and of itself I find new, strange, unneeded and unwelcome. I pulled over to a pullout and waved the hello greeting and it turns out that I did know one of the guys and we rolled out windows down and did the "hail fellow well met" thing, he gets out, Glock on hip and leans in the window.....just talked bullshit and what was up, happy to see each other. He works for another Federal police agency but was doing a "ride along" thinking he might go work for the Forest Service police.
I thought it strange they were patrolling on a dirt road so far into the woods, at a time of year that few folks were out there, I figured they were looking for something specifically. Nope: later I heard from the guy that it was just a routine patrol, but that ALL of the Forest Service roads had these hidden cameras installed. All of them. Evidently it's usually close to where the roads start. He says "Don't bother looking, you'll never find them, LOL".
I did a google search and saw nothing about anything like this, and was wondering if I might have been the subject of a joke by my buddy. I couldn't find anything searching for all kinds of different terms: "Forest Service installing surveillance cameras", or spy cameras on dirt roads", or "hidden police cameras in the woods" kind of thing anywhere.
Recently I got an e-mail from the Western States lands Coalition http://www.westernslopenofee.org/]http://www.westernslopenofee.org/ with the news story dated Mar 12th 2010 that the first camera was just found, also in February. Check out the location! East Coast. Remember that I'm in Oregon on a Forest Service road having this discussion with my buddy and he was saying ALL roads had cameras. Is homeland security grants paying for all this monioting? How many new hires do they have? How do they upload this info? Is it computer monitored or did they go to India for labor? What the heck is the story here?
Full link followed by full text:
http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2010/mar/16/francis-marion-has-hidden-cameras/
"Hidden cameras - Forest Service says devices used for law enforcement
By Tony Bartelme
The Post and Courier
Tuesday, March 16, 2010
Last month, Herman Jacob took his daughter and her friend camping in the Francis Marion National Forest. While poking around for some firewood, Jacob noticed a wire. He pulled the wire and followed it to a video camera and antenna.
The camera didn't have any markings identifying its owner, so Jacob took it home and called law enforcement agencies to find out if it was theirs, all the while wondering why someone would station a video camera in an isolated clearing in the woods.
Herman Jacob squats next to a stump and log in the Francis Marion National Forest where he found a video camera buried and pointing toward a camping site (background) where he and his daughter were camping. Jacob was looking for firewood when he across the camera that was put there by the Forest Service.
Photo by Brad Nettles
Provided/Herman Jacob
Herman Jacob found this motion-activated camera in a primitive campsite in the Francis Marion National Forest.
He eventually received a call from Mark Heitzman of the U.S. Forest Service. In a stiff voice, Heitzman ordered Jacob to turn it back over to his agency, explaining that it had been set up to monitor "illicit activities." Jacob returned the camera but felt uneasy.
Why, he wondered, would the Forest Service have secret cameras in a relatively remote camping area? What do they do with photos of bystanders? How many hidden cameras are they using, and for what purposes? Is this surveillance in the forest an effective law enforcement tool? And what are our expectations of privacy when we camp on public land?
Officials with the Forest Service were hardly forthcoming with answers to these and other questions about their surveillance cameras. When contacted about the incident, Heitzman said "no comment" and referred other questions to Forest Service's public affairs, who he said, "won't know anything about it."
Heather Frebe, public affairs officer with the Forest Service in Atlanta, told Watchdog that the camera was part of a law enforcement investigation, but she declined to provide any of the investigation's details.
Asked how cameras are used in general, how many are routinely deployed throughout the Forest and about the agency's policies, Frebe also declined to discuss specifics. She said that surveillance cameras have been used for "numerous years" to provide for public safety and to protect the natural resources of the forest. Without elaborating, she said images of people who are not targets of an investigation are "not kept."
In addition, when asked whether surveillance cameras had led to any arrests, she did not provide an example, saying in an e-mail statement: "Our officers use a variety of techniques to apprehend individuals who break laws on the national forest."
Video surveillance, of course, is nothing new, and the courts have addressed the issue numerous times in recent decades. The Fourth Amendment guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, and over time the courts have created a body of law that defines what's reasonable, though this has become more challenging as surveillance cameras became smaller and more advanced.
In general, the courts have held that people typically have no reasonable level of privacy in public places, such as banks, streets, open fields in plain view, and on public lands, such as National Parks and National Forests. In various cases, judges ruled that a video camera is effectively an extension of a law enforcement officer's eyes and ears. In other words, if an officer can eyeball a campground in person, it's OK to station a video camera in his or her place.
Jacob said he understands that law enforcement officials have a job to do but questioned whether stationing hidden cameras outweighed his and his children's privacy rights. He said the camp site they went to -- off a section of the Palmetto Trail on U.S. Highway 52 north of Moncks Corner -- was primitive and marked only by a metal rod and a small wooden stand for brochures. He didn't recall seeing any signs saying that the area was under surveillance.
After he found the camera, he plugged the model number, PV-700, into his Blackberry, and his first hit on Google was a Web site offering a "law enforcement grade" motion-activated video camera for about $500. He called law enforcement agencies in the area, looking for its owner, and later got a call from Heitzman, an agent with the National Forest Service.
"He sounded all bent out of shape that I had his camera," Jacob recalled. He asked Heitzman about the camera's purpose. When Heitzman told him that illegal activities were taking place in the area, Jacob said he asked whether it was safe to camp there. He said that Heitzman reassured him that it was. Jacob said he later wondered why the Forest Service would set up a camera in an area they considered safe. "Now, I'm wondering how many campsites they're monitoring?" He phoned Charleston attorney Tim Kulp for advice.
Kulp said the Forest Service's failure to explain what they're doing in the forest raises important privacy questions. "What's the goal here?" He said the Forest Service also needs to address what they do with images of people who aren't targets of any investigation, particularly of children.
Kulp said people generally are willing to give up their privacy if it means protection from harm but not if law enforcement officials are merely cracking down on petty offenses.
He added that people's expectations of privacy in a remote area in the National Forest are different than other public spaces. "You're not going to go to the bathroom in the parking lot of Walmart, but you're not going to think twice in the forest." Both are public spaces, he said, but most people likely would expect to have more privacy in the forest."
___
That's the end of the news story. For myself, I'm sadly beginning to feel more like it's even more of an "us against them" thing. I served my county and I'm an honorably discharged veteran. I consider myself hardworking honest and patriotic. Yet I have to tell you, my own government utilizing all these resources to be needlessly spying on me and expanding it's powers for no apparent reason is shockingly unsettling and disturbing. I understand surveillance to help on criminal investigations. I understand that they have the right to look through my garbage cans, but having the right is different than having them actually and routinely go through them, or following my every move all the time when I am in public spaces. Somehow, we don't have the resources to keep murderers, rapists and thieves in jail, but we have the funds to do this expensive monitoring? (The camera appears to be a standard "Bullet camera -@$400.00, wrapped with camo tape, and the recoding device is named above -@ $500.00. They look to have increased the battery size inside cover of the waterproof case -total $ - what $1200? per unit?) We can't keep illegals out from Mexico but we can spend millions or perhaps billions of uncharted and secret dollars to monitor all these dead end dirt roads in the middle of nowhere frequented primarily by honest citizens? It's total bullshit and I find it very, very, disturbing.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
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Like all bureaucracies they're only interested in expanding
their empire and job security. Relevance or implementing policies
that the people want or need have no place in policy making.
If local police have civilian oversight committees why doesn't
the Forest Service and the Park Service. Don't tell me Congress
is their civilian overseer as those people aren't civilians. Hell,
half of 'em aren't even marginally civil most of the time!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Mar 25, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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he was full of sh#t saying all roads now have these things. No way... impossible and unpractical. think of all the roads out there.
THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!?!?!?!11169
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willie!!!!!
Trad climber
99827
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Mar 25, 2010 - 01:46pm PT
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I'd put the electronics in my scathole and keep the pelican box for weed storage.
Scary stuff, and I'm afraid it's only just begun.
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Jack Burns
climber
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Mar 25, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
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Where do the cables go from the cameras? Do they run to some central wireless router or something? I can't fathom hardwiring these things over miles of terrain to where the monitors are.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 25, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
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If I find that kind of trash, I'll treat it just like a beer can or candy wrapper. It'll be picked up and carried to the nearest garbage can.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mar 25, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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"You're not going to go to the bathroom in the parking lot of Walmart, but you're not going to think twice in the forest." Both are public spaces, he said, but most people likely would expect to have more privacy in the forest."
I think this is spot on, that one can have an expectation of privacy in the forest, despite it being an officially designated "public space". So the general principle of public space = no right to privacy, is actually not a true proposition.
Moreover, there are times when you might need to change your dirty clothes after a hike. Dry out your clothes near the campfire when it rains.
I would think that a Freedom of Information Act request would be appropriate if the FS is not forthcoming with a response. http://w2.eff.org/Activism/FOIA/foia.kit
Also an inquiry with the EFF (eff.org) might prove useful as well.
There are likely valuable reasons to set up a CCTV system in the forest. Drug enforcement... grows or labs are problems in FS land. Also, recurring violent acts on forest visitors, or recurring vandalism to Forest Service structures?
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 25, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
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There will be one installed coming to your local crag.
The evidence that you're grabbing gear and hang dogging and then claiming a flash will be revealed.
There will be no place for you to hide ..........
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Mar 25, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
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If their spy cams records just one image of a child relieving themselves
in the woods, all the Forest Service people involved could get 20years in prison. Taxpayer funded USFS child pornography?
DOJ should confiscate the home computers of all involved today.
Probable cause.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 25, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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Thanks for sharing this. I hadn't heard it yet, but I'm not surprised.
Call me a conspiracy theorist I do not care.
The truth of the matter is our NWO US Federal Government is pushing head-on to watch all aspects of our lives. George Orwells 1984 world is here. It has been here for sometime now and it is only getting worse day by day.
Watch the video "NOVA: The Spy Factory". Every electronic data means in our lives now, phone calls, cell or land-line, emails, FAXs, even turning on our cell phones remotely to listen in is now possible and they do it, is all being massively swept-up and stored by the NSA. This came under the cover of the US Patriot Act, which is anything but Patriotic. But they have wanted to do this for a long, long time. 9-11 and the Patriot Act just gave them the excuse, under the cover of "Keeping us safe." That is 100% USDA Bull Dung. It is Uber Big Brother and all about the lose of our Constitutional Bill of Rights. This is all very scary and extremely oppressive and Orwellian.
DHS and now other Federal agencies are now complying and setting up remote cameras. I believe it. No doubt. I would say in no time many of our outdoor and in the public lives will be imaged and recorded. Why stop there? Why not monitor us in our homes? I'm sure they are working on it. With infrared sensing you can see through walls, so why not?
RFID chips are also ultimately evil. We now have an RFID chip in new Passports, as well as many products we purchase. All they have to do is set up sensores throughout public places and facilites and if you are carrying a passport or product the sensores can read it.
They can track you real time if your cell phone is on as you walk around and move around in your car. They can do that now.
Not to mention what they can do with remote sensing from space with sattelites.
All of this is massively scary. I have been saying so for a long time as well as others.
If this does not bother you something is wrong. This abuse has to stop.
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Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
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That same rig is what researchers use for "camera traps" to photograph wildlife. Last week we had a school group and one of the chaperones was a wildlife biologist researcher, who set one up, we didn't get anything in a one-night try, but we are excited to purchase a couple of these rigs and add that to our youth programs. Night photos of pine martens or flying squirrels would be really cool!
So, don't go nuts if you find such a rig, good chance it has nothing to do with "big brother" but might be equipment used in research that can be useful for wild lands protection, or enviro-ed for youth.
Peter
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 25, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
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Peter - Put a big tag on your camera rig & let the public know what it's use is for.
e.g : LEAVE THIS CAMERA PLEASE IT"S FOR TAKING PIX OF SQUIRRELS AND STUFF.
Something unmarked and buried is, IMHO, more sinister...........
Yep.. clearly marked. Who owns it and why its there. I find a camera aimed at my campsite and it will likely end up with problems.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mar 25, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
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Tami,
Correction to my post to say that I was referring in general to the policy. There are some forests that are perfect for grows or labs, not too high or too low. Eventually the grows will be less of an issue of drugs, and more about pollutants in water sources, but if the offense is a felony level, then there is principled basis to use CCTV or still photography in the forest.
In terms of violence, the 108 had a missing person not too long ago. Too suspicious dissappearance not to be an act of violence. And it's not that means a justification for dragnet placement of cameras, but that the use can be justified in an active investigation, or felony man hunt.
For cases of arson of forest service property, again, a repeat arsonist might be just the right kind of use for these, but since there is absolutely no public policy about their use, then the use must default to be seen as surreptitious and perjorative.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Mar 25, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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Couchmaster - how could you have known it was a Govt spy cam? For all
you or anyone could guess it was placed there by a perv trying to get nude shots of your wife and kids. Possibly a govt perv misusing equipment?
This is similar to that PA school turning on students Macbook web cams
to spy on them at home. FBI is reaming those idiots.
Isn't there a federal law against the use of surveillance cameras where people will be going to the bathroom?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mar 25, 2010 - 05:08pm PT
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Corniss, the difference there is the cameras could be used by non LEOs in a private space (homes). Not the same.
Oh, and just to be clear, Couch was quoting an article. He didn't find the cameras himself. right?
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kinnikinik
Trad climber
B.C.
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Mar 25, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
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Recently in AZ we witnessed large dirigables anchored above the desert. Two at the Yuma proving ground and one above the san Pedro valley near sierra vista. I asked a marine dood I met out in the Kofa about them. He told me they are equiped with thermal imaging cameras as well as optical instruments. They are positioned to cover huge swatches of territory and were visible on approach, in camp, on route etc. they were presumable able to see our every move. Add web cams, traffic cams forest service cams etc. and most thing can be seen. Do they have the ability to coordinate this info across agencies or is it just more random data?
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flakyfoont
Trad climber
carsoncity nv
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Mar 25, 2010 - 06:29pm PT
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Rokjox, another great RF finder is the Alan Broadband Zapchecker. many models to choose from.1mhz to 8mhz , 3mhz-5mhz and also 1mhz to 14mhz. (twice as high as 802.11a wireless. $90.00- $700.00. Ive had one for over 10 years. It has saved me a hassel or two from stray, or transmitted RF fields of many types. (and many purposes). Good to about 80 feet..But will also detect very strong directed Microwave transmissions from along ways off. Its claim to fame is its millivolt detection capabilities. can pick up even the smallest of bugs. http:// www.zapchecker.com
Alot of these remote type transmitters transmit via meteor scatter batched information bursts. similar to backcountry SNOTEL snow monitoring sites , and also USGS remote sites.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 25, 2010 - 06:44pm PT
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Zapchecker .... pure junk.
Here's the good stuff.
http://www.bvsystems.com/
And this is the Cadillac of hand held scanners. Rohde and Schwarz FSH series Handheld Spectrum Analysers.
Most of those cameras in the forest are not wireless. They just collect data either single frame or a timed set of frames according to how they are set up and for what purpose the camera has been put into service.
There's a lot of wildlife monitor cameras in strategic places in the US.
There's now a wireless video monitor camera at Arch Rock entrance station in the parking lot.
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flakyfoont
Trad climber
carsoncity nv
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Mar 25, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
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ya werner, Rohde&Schwartz are the cream of the crop. Way out of my price range.For bouncing around the bottom of my backpack under tools on top of towers, my zapchecker has lasted 10 yrs!!! Excellant for finding just about any source of Rf and any feild strength.
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